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Old 02-01-2005, 09:30 PM   #1
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procharger vs vortech

ok the vortech and procharger websites suck with giving specifics.

i wanna know which kit would be more bang for the buck, as well as reliable. both kits are about the same price, but both need fuel system upgrades.

main diffs:
- procharger has intercooler
- vortech taps into the oil pan
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Old 02-01-2005, 09:33 PM   #2
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get the procharger it comes intercooled. you will need to get a good tune (contact american motorsports or vmp) and also a 300lph fuel pump, bigger injectors, bigger maf (70mm).
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Old 02-01-2005, 09:39 PM   #3
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but the bad thing about procharger is it robs more power

if it were me i'd get a Turbo setup however if i had to get S/C
Vortech
bigger pulley
Intercooler
fuel upgrades
and a damn good tune

but remember with FI your going to be running a little faster than bolt on 99+GT's but if that GT goes FI your toast
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Old 02-01-2005, 09:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timpryor
but the bad thing about procharger is it robs more power
i didnt know this, care to explain?
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Old 02-01-2005, 09:46 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by From some Guys/Gals with experience with both
Internal step up on most prochargers is almost 5 to 1. MOST vortechs are about half that. Try and spin each blower's pulley by hand. The vortech will make a few revolutions. The ati will be lucky to make it 3/4 of a turn after you let go. Now imagine a belt trying to turn that same pulley loaded down with boost...

I've owned:
Vortech A, B, R, S, and T-trim blowers.
Paxton SN-*, VR4, Novi 1k* and 2k* blowers.
Ati Poocharger P600b and D1R.
Powerdyne garbage...dont even remember the model number, I saw the internal belt and about died laughing...

When I ran the D1R, had some issues with belt slippage (imagine that!)...called ATI for some tech support and they said tighten the belt. They said tighten it till it snaps, and then dont tighten the next one quite as much...

The bracket sucked. Flexed pretty badly-I'll try to find a pic of my old custom blower brace Long story short, I will not buy another procharger, no matter how good the deal is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStangChik
They make power, but with a procharger you have to make more boost to make the same power the vortech makes with lower boost. Also procharger uses a blow through mass air and its harder to tune.. That my opinion as to why i think they SUCK!


Heres a little story, back in Feburary of 2002:
Car#1.) DSS Bullet 306, Ported Trick Flow(300ish CFM) heads and intake, ATI P600b intercooled setup pulley'd at 21/17psi*, speedbrain engine management and about 6 hours and countless pulls tuning on the dyno- 471rwhp.

****Procharger uses 21/17 to rate the boost because they loose at least 4psi over their intercooler..imagine what a Vortech would do making 21 psi *******

Car#2.) Stock shortblock, Edelbrock performer RPM heads and intake, Vortech S-trim with a 2.65 and 6.785" pulley(approx. 18psi), no intercooler, stock A9L, 3rd pull on the dyno just messing with Fuel Pressure Regulator and Distributor.
613 rwhp(baseline was 577, second pull was 599).

That was all the proof I needed. First hand the cars sounded and behaved dramatically different. Sure ATI's claims that intercooled boost is more efficient are accurate, as long as you dont mind comparing 20psi to 15psi at the blower's outlet.
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Old 02-01-2005, 10:03 PM   #6
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great info
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Old 02-01-2005, 10:26 PM   #7
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yeah, the vortech is more efficient. People are getting the same power with the base vortech kit as the intercooled procharger
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Old 02-02-2005, 06:23 PM   #8
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yah the procharger is nice but after looking into it i found out that torque is robbed with a procharger, so i'll either go with a vortech or a turbo setup.
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Old 02-02-2005, 06:56 PM   #9
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Can you get the s trim & get the aftercooler later?
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Old 02-02-2005, 07:01 PM   #10
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you can buy a custom intercooler later for the vortech... but you will WANT an intercooler they are just to good not to bother with
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Old 02-02-2005, 07:19 PM   #11
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glad i could actually bring some light into this conversation
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Old 02-03-2005, 04:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectorV
you can buy a custom intercooler later for the vortech... but you will WANT an intercooler they are just to good not to bother with
Ya but could you install one later with not that many modifications?
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timpryor
but the bad thing about procharger is it robs more power
Thats intresting. Ill have to see how much this is true when I go back in for another tune. I personally dont have any belt slips or anything. Maybe I just happen to be very lucky cause Ive had ZERO issues so far *knocks on wood*

Also mail order tunes are teh suck. Id NEVER get a mail order tune cause its NEVER right. Im thankful I have two shops that know how to tune
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:19 PM   #14
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Tuning a supercharged motor is very important, especially in high boost applications. Very critical that it is precise.
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Js281GT
Tuning a supercharged motor is very important, especially in high boost applications. Very critical that it is precise.
thats why im really against mail order tunes cause of that reasoning
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Old 02-05-2005, 08:35 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemustang
thats why im really against mail order tunes cause of that reasoning
A mail order tune will get you to the dyno.
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Old 02-05-2005, 02:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slvr2000stang
A mail order tune will get you to the dyno.
thats not always true. I know a few people who made their car worse off and or couldnt even get it out of their driveway.
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Old 02-05-2005, 07:21 PM   #18
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you have to go around the world or so it looks to get an intercooler on a vortech, at least on thats on the front bumper as you would want.
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Old 02-07-2005, 01:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectorV
you have to go around the world or so it looks to get an intercooler on a vortech, at least on thats on the front bumper as you would want.
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Old 02-07-2005, 01:21 PM   #20
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It is an aftercooler & the one that is mounted in the bumper is procharger.
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Old 02-18-2005, 08:50 PM   #21
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Hummm, last time I looked, the ATI/Procharger was making
great HP on many V6's. Don't base all your expectations on
V8 information, check out the V6 info if you are buying a V6 kit.

ATI is a great V6 setup. That's what I have the most experience with.
In fact, I believe I built the first combo for an ATI and we are
still the emissions legal HP champ, on a single port, it made
332 RWHP (SAE) on a 98 with rather mild but well-planned mods.
The wildest thing was the upper intake, box plenum but the rest of
it was mild cam, stock valve heads, 60mm TB and 30# injectors.
Plus a good dyno tune. 11# Intercooled boost.



Quote:
Originally Posted by From some Guys/Gals with experience with both

Internal step up on most prochargers is almost 5 to 1...
***Was 4.44:1 but they might have upgraded. This makes it easier to
use big pullies, for better belt contact.
Vortech uses less internal gearing, which is fine, but you need
bigger drive (crank) pullies to get the impeller speed. On the surface
it appears to be an advantage for ATI but if the Vortech has better
impeller design, then it is a moot point.***


MOST vortechs are about half that. Try and spin each blower's pulley by hand. The vortech will make a few revolutions. The ati will be lucky to make it 3/4 of a turn after you let go. Now imagine a belt trying to turn that same pulley loaded down with boost...
***But the ATI will make more boost with less external pulley speed.
Also, see above comments***


I've owned:
Vortech A, B, R, S, and T-trim blowers.
Paxton SN-*, VR4, Novi 1k* and 2k* blowers.
Ati Poocharger P600b and D1R.
Powerdyne garbage...dont even remember the model number, I saw the internal belt and about died laughing...
*** Yeah, that is a joke, but back to the ATI/Vortech debate

When I ran the D1R, had some issues with belt slippage (imagine that!)...called ATI for some tech support and they said tighten the belt. They said tighten it till it snaps, and then dont tighten the next one quite as much...
***The Tech is an idiot. Was he gonna send a free replacement
belt???***


The bracket sucked. Flexed pretty badly-I'll try to find a pic of my old custom blower brace Long story short, I will not buy another procharger, no matter how good the deal is.
***Seems the V6 kits are pretty stout, but this is not a good
thing. Ask for 2 brackets and double them up, (JK) but it should be
stout as-delivered. Bad Brackets Suck! Probably due to cost cutting
to be competitive in the 5.0 SC market, bad practice. Advantage, Vortech.***



Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStangChik
They make power, but with a procharger you have to make more boost to make the same power the vortech makes with lower boost. Also procharger uses a blow through mass air and its harder to tune.. That my opinion as to why i think they SUCK!
***The tuners say this is the best way to go, true, it is harder to tune
but a suck thru MAF is restrictive. A MAF under 15# of boost flows double
what it does under no boost, and it also automatically compensates
somewhat for charge heating cuz the MAF element is a hot-wire element.
Suck-thru (or draw thru) needs a MAF body that is large enough to not
impede incoming flow, notice that the Lightning MAF is 90mm now?
That will be and added expense for Vortech users with high boost
setups that use suck-thru, but they can convert to blow-thru as well.
Suck-thru sucks BlueStangChik! Blow-thru is best!!!***




Heres a little story, back in Feburary of 2002:
Car#1.) DSS Bullet 306, Ported Trick Flow(300ish CFM) heads and intake, ATI P600b intercooled setup pulley'd at 21/17psi*, speedbrain engine management and about 6 hours and countless pulls tuning on the dyno- 471rwhp.
***Could be that SpeedBrain is harder to use than SCT software, my
tuner has no problems whatsoever...***


****Procharger uses 21/17 to rate the boost because they lose at least 4psi
over their intercooler..imagine what a Vortech would do making 21 psi *******
***Any IC has a boost loss, cooler denser air will read at less pressure,
ever heard of Boyle's Gas Law? Even Vortechs lose "boost" in a IC, and would
lose exactly the same amount in that same intercooler. ATI IC's are not
known for the highest efficiency, that was possibly their 2 core.***



Car#2.) Stock shortblock, Edelbrock performer RPM heads and intake, Vortech S-trim with a 2.65 and 6.785" pulley(approx. 18psi), no intercooler, stock A9L, 3rd pull on the dyno just messing with Fuel Pressure Regulator and Distributor.
613 rwhp(baseline was 577, second pull was 599).
***Darn good, but these are 2 totally different setups and this one was
using the stock tuning accoutrements, which are quite commonly known
to most tuners. I bet these were even different tuning shops, and/or the
speedbrain setup was unfamiliar to the tuner. The ATI setup was definitely
under performing, due to some unknown reason. But the Vortech Rocked,
I'll give you that! ***


That was all the proof I needed. First hand the cars sounded and behaved dramatically different. Sure ATI's claims that intercooled boost is more efficient are accurate, as long as you dont mind comparing 20psi to 15psi at the blower's outlet.
[b]***What is needed is Vortech IC Vs. ATI IC setups. Any slanted
comparison can make the best hardware look bad compared to junk
that is well-excuted (Don't get me wrong, Vortech is a great unit)
but my point is that Great parts, poorly executed, are no match for
normal, good old proven non-flashy setups with great planning and
execution.
EXAMPLE: I consulted on a low-buck 4.2 with my older obsolete cam
that kills a competitors high-$$$$ 4.3 longblock setup with a much
larger cam and Forged rotating assembly and "pro" assembly. The
cheap 4.2 used a JY crank, rods and pistons, self built by the owner.
265/280 RWHP/TQ over the hi-$ 259/260 RWHP/TQ forged, big cam setup.

Planning and execution > cubic dollars
Just my observations, check out the #'s V6 guys are running with Vortech
and ATI setups, go here:
V6 Dyno listings
and compare Vortech Vs. ATI. Many of the best ones usen Vortech, and all
use intercoolers (except #1, and he uses a 50HP wet shot for that...)
7 use ATI's and all are IC'ed and 10 of the top 25 use Vortech, and the
top ones are intercooled. Seems that the Vortech measures up well,
but ATI does pretty good also. I am just trying to get the facts straight,
some of the ATI info was needing to be put in context.

I've seen plenty of underperforming Vortech setups, but getting a complete
setup will be highly preferable to cobbling together any SC setup. Most of
the Vortech horror stories were from people who did not follow the mfg's
recommendations, or even a good V6 shops combo. Winging it is a bad deal.

That is what I am here for, helping the V6'er get the best combo for their $$$$$.
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