WTF is wrong with my tuner? - Mustang Evolution

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Old 10-31-2005, 08:21 PM   #1
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WTF is wrong with my tuner?

ok, so its been getting to feel rather chilly outside, so i thought i would bump up the tune from the 93 street to the 93 track mode.......only diff is maybe 2-3 hp and harder shifts, but the harder shifts is why i wanted to change. so i change it on wednesday afternoon and thursday night as i am cruising out to the weekly car meet i blip the throttle, maybe 1/4 throttle and hear a light rattle sound. i immediately think its pinging for some reason. so saturday i played around with it. it gives an every so slight ping only at 1/4 throttle in all three modes (89 economy, 93 street, 93 track) but doesnt when i return it back to stock. you cant even hear it at full throttle or really anything more than a blip of the throttle.


i am thinking it has something to do with the tuner since it doesnt do this on a stock program, i have run nothing but shell and chevron 93 octane in this car. does anyone have any suggestions as to what i can do before i bring it back and get the tuner looked at?


its an x-cal2 tuner btw.............


thanks
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:20 PM   #2
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

It's the 3.9, the windstar parts are throwing it off.
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:22 PM   #3
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowflyn
It's the 3.9, the windstar parts are throwing it off.
impossible.........the 3.9 was built by the hands of God....................dont ever blame the 3.9
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:24 PM   #4
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

I'll be honest with ya though, mine does the same thing.
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Old 10-31-2005, 11:33 PM   #5
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

do you make lots of short trips during the day? maybe your car never warmed up enough to evaporate the water and it's causing you to have crappy watery gas?:dunno:
If that happened to me i would get a fresh tank of gas and put an additive in it that's suppose to clear out any excess water. i forget what it's called but i'm sure you can get something at any auto parts store. cost maybe 2 or 3 bucks and can't hurt.
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Old 11-01-2005, 01:51 AM   #6
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

That additive is called dry-gas. Usually around 1.75 a bottle where I work, I like to charge 2.75 to dummies and make a buck though.
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Old 11-01-2005, 07:42 AM   #7
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

The tunes could have a little too much timing on the low end, nothing harmful, but I would get an adjusted tune.
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Old 11-01-2005, 10:20 AM   #8
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_luv_HP&trq
do you make lots of short trips during the day? maybe your car never warmed up enough to evaporate the water and it's causing you to have crappy watery gas?:dunno:
If that happened to me i would get a fresh tank of gas and put an additive in it that's suppose to clear out any excess water. i forget what it's called but i'm sure you can get something at any auto parts store. cost maybe 2 or 3 bucks and can't hurt.
yes, i live about 2-3 miles from where i work


Quote:
Originally Posted by justin00stang
The tunes could have a little too much timing on the low end, nothing harmful, but I would get an adjusted tune.
but it didnt do it until late last week. i got the tuner at the end of june and kept it on the track tune for a few months and had to get it reprogrammed b/c the heat was too much and after a long period of running and shifting in 100*+ heat, 3+ hours, if you jumped on it, the transmission wouldnt tach up, it would go to about 3k and just slow up, feeling like someone just set the parking brake on it. i got it tuned down to the track setting and have not had that problem again. last week is when i tuned it back to the track tune and i dont have that tranny problem, just that tip in ping.

sorry if i am not using the correct terms here, but if i take away some timing on the low end, what does that cause? will it take away the tip in ping? what about power, will it also take away a little power? if so, a noticeable difference?
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Old 11-01-2005, 11:02 AM   #9
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Possibly the change to winter fuels has caused this. You will not notice a degree or two of timing taken out at low RPM, but techincally reducing timing does reduce HP, however pinging is not good for power either.
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:03 PM   #10
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

but as it sits now, with just a tip in ping, is it harmful in any way?
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:36 PM   #11
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04stang
but as it sits now, with just a tip in ping, is it harmful in any way?
Not really, but I wouldn't continue it.
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Old 11-01-2005, 07:57 PM   #12
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

the pinging isn't good if it happens every time you get on the gas. you most likely haven't caused any dammage but yea it's not a good thing and needs to be fixed. I had to ****** my timing with my diablo tuner when i go down to 87 octane.
I would at least try with a fresh tank of gas and get your car warmed up to operating temp and see if that helps. do you have the actual tuner or a chip that gets tuned?
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:16 PM   #13
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_luv_HP&trq
the pinging isn't good if it happens every time you get on the gas. you most likely haven't caused any dammage but yea it's not a good thing and needs to be fixed. I had to ****** my timing with my diablo tuner when i go down to 87 octane.
I would at least try with a fresh tank of gas and get your car warmed up to operating temp and see if that helps. do you have the actual tuner or a chip that gets tuned?

i have the x-cal 2 tuner itself...............i called the guy that did the tuning and he told me that the tunes just dont magically change and that its gotta be that i just got some bad gas, he said he has seen a few cars (non mustangs) come in and their problems have been due to bad gas. he also told me that changing the spark plugs and fuel filter might help..........i just got finished with that and it still gives me that slight ping when i tip into the throttle.

i guess i'll get to do the fuel filter this weekend and see if maybe that helps in any way.

any other suggestions? it doesnt do it at 1/2 throttle or even full throttle, just when you dip into it and hold it there, and its a slight rattle, hell you kinda have to lean forward and listen for it
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Old 11-03-2005, 08:19 AM   #14
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Changing the fuel filter won't fix the problem. If you install plugs you'll want to go one or two steps colder than stock, I would say a 22 heat range in motorcraft plugs.
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Old 11-03-2005, 10:27 AM   #15
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin00stang
Changing the fuel filter won't fix the problem. If you install plugs you'll want to go one or two steps colder than stock, I would say a 22 heat range in motorcraft plugs.

damn, i wish i would have know this about 24hrs ago before is spent $14 on spark plugs

why did they have to change the formula of the gas on me, i want the kind that doesnt ****in ping when i tip into it

so will colder plugs possibly stop this?

thinking about this, it cant be the tuner b/c the tunes in the programmer have never been messed with since the guy programmed it in late june, it cant be my car b/c i havent done anything to it to cause this, i have just been running shell and chevron 93, its not the fuel filter, its gotta be the gas...........
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Old 11-03-2005, 11:12 AM   #16
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

I only recomend motorcraft plugs. 2 step colder plugs could possibly fix the problem.
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Old 11-03-2005, 03:18 PM   #17
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04stang
its gotta be the gas...........
:yup:
why doesn't anyone believe me?
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Old 11-09-2005, 03:08 AM   #18
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

pull timing a degree or so in the lower rpm ranges. maybe add a bit of fuel. id see if adding fuel helps before i went to pulling timing. remember, colder air is more dense, and thus fuel must be added to compensate for the added air.
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Old 11-09-2005, 10:26 AM   #19
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

what gas station do you normally get gas at?

Being a turbo car, i have to keep an eye on what gas i use, BP, Shell, and one other suck in my car. I use Exxon with no problems.
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Old 11-09-2005, 05:18 PM   #20
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird232ci
what gas station do you normally get gas at?

Being a turbo car, i have to keep an eye on what gas i use, BP, Shell, and one other suck in my car. I use Exxon with no problems.
i use chevron and shell and have had no problems until a couple weeks ago.....sunday i added some lucas octane booster and it cut down on the ping slightly, so i guess its the gas
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Old 11-09-2005, 05:45 PM   #21
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

here's an idea nobody has said yet, maybe it's the gas....
lol.
but seriously other then the gas i would ****** the spark advance a bit. even with the tune in your car, cars like to adapt themselves to your driving habbits. for example if you go WOT all day the car will want to ****** timing so that it stays in check with emissions. (this is what i've been told from a wise man)

Like when i go away from home for a bit and my dad used to drive my car all slow and careful, when i got back home i'd mash on the gas and would feel more pick up because when my dad drove it slower the cars computer compensated for that and gave it the "normal" spark advance to stay in check with emissions. then after being home for a bit it would go back to retarding it when i got on it.
Now i'm not 110% sure on this theory and i forget what my point was.....
maybe someone with more experience can elaborate.
good luck
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Old 11-09-2005, 05:50 PM   #22
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

now that i think and re read what i wrote, i'm probably not right.
who knows maybe what iv'e said will inspire some thought from someone else.
I'd go out of town to a different gas station and see if that changes anything. let the car warm up and pay the extra dollar to get whatever the highest octane you have available.
just spit balling here......
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:28 PM   #23
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

thats called adaptive learning.........i know the ford 500 or whatever its called has it.
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:34 PM   #24
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

^ yea i knew that. i was trying to be long winded on purpose.
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:40 PM   #25
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Uh..our cars do the same thing....to an extent.
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:52 PM   #26
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

^that's what i thought. actually i think most modern emission controlled vehicles have programs similar to that.... somehow i was tying that into a possible solution for him but i forgot what my point was. lol. oh well.
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Old 11-09-2005, 08:02 PM   #27
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

But seriously, I think the problem is a short in the space from the drivers seat to the tuner.
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Old 11-09-2005, 09:22 PM   #28
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowflyn
But seriously, I think the problem is a short in the space from the drivers seat to the tuner.
:wth
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Old 11-10-2005, 12:38 AM   #29
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowflyn
Uh..our cars do the same thing....to an extent.
yup, to a very short extent. the ecu uses long term fuel trims and short term ones(reset after each startup) and uses that to extrapolate the best trim for your driving style. this is good for a point a to b car where its never going to be used for performance driving, but for a car that you want to shine when you hit the gas, its a bad thing, cause it will have a really good fuel curve from low ti mid rpm's, but since you would never go up top, it wont know how to run and run rich up there. this is why when you reset your ecu, the car feels very fast as compared to a ecu that is used to you, because its running a fuel curve based on its inputs, not based on driving averages(short and long term trims). also why you want to reset the ecu after any kind of airflow mod, so it gets used to the new air coming in or such.

and octane booster is fools gold. its been proven time and again that while it states to raise the octane point by one, its really by .1. .1 octane increase is NOT going to have even a minor teeny effect on anything.

i still say you need to add some fuel down low, and if that doesnt help, pull some timing. even though i dont believe any tuning you do via a palm tuner will make any difference in anything BUT WOT throttle. meaning that the tune you install really doesnt do anything unless youre going balls to the wall.
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Old 11-10-2005, 09:47 AM   #30
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EclipseGSTdude
yup, to a very short extent. the ecu uses long term fuel trims and short term ones(reset after each startup) and uses that to extrapolate the best trim for your driving style. this is good for a point a to b car where its never going to be used for performance driving, but for a car that you want to shine when you hit the gas, its a bad thing, cause it will have a really good fuel curve from low ti mid rpm's, but since you would never go up top, it wont know how to run and run rich up there. this is why when you reset your ecu, the car feels very fast as compared to a ecu that is used to you, because its running a fuel curve based on its inputs, not based on driving averages(short and long term trims). also why you want to reset the ecu after any kind of airflow mod, so it gets used to the new air coming in or such.

and octane booster is fools gold. its been proven time and again that while it states to raise the octane point by one, its really by .1. .1 octane increase is NOT going to have even a minor teeny effect on anything.

i still say you need to add some fuel down low, and if that doesnt help, pull some timing. even though i dont believe any tuning you do via a palm tuner will make any difference in anything BUT WOT throttle. meaning that the tune you install really doesnt do anything unless youre going balls to the wall.
How do you reset your ecu?
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Old 11-10-2005, 11:27 AM   #31
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

To reset your ECU, you have to disconnect your battery, and leave it disconnected for a while, so that it will lose the stored memory

EEC-V has come a long way, has a very fast processor compaired to EEC-IV, and many many more inputs. The thing im not quite sure of is if the EEC-V system uses a knock sensor. My Turbo Coupe does, where as the 3.8 and 5.0 cars dont, so i dont know where the 99+ sits in that respect, but the EEC-V is much more adaptive than the previous. They are able to vaugely determine altitude, along with air quality, and as Eclipsedude stated, driving style. He is correct about how it learns the driving style, but Ford did use a base program in the EEC-V setups that are a very nice compromise between economy and performance, and they use that program untill learned otherwise.

As for octane booster, its crap, dont bother, buy good gas next time around.

Just drive the car for a while, sometimes the ping will be persistant, other times it wont, it depends on if the engine will learn otherwise. The computer systems are nutty.
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Old 11-10-2005, 12:04 PM   #32
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

The 99 up has a knock sensor, and pushes the timing to the point right below knocking in order to achieve the best running engine. This is how I understand it at least...someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 11-10-2005, 12:12 PM   #33
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowflyn
The 99 up has a knock sensor, and pushes the timing to the point right below knocking in order to achieve the best running engine. This is how I understand it at least...someone correct me if I'm wrong.
When it senses knock, it retards the timing, you are correct on that, but the problem is that the EEC only has a certain amount of adjustability, i believe in my turbo coupe for instance, the knock sensor will take up to 8* of base timing out, and stock base timing is 10* BTDC, so if it took 8* out, it would leave me at 2* BTDC. Now i set my timing at 14* BTDC, and if it were to pull timing, it would be at 6*, it can only adjust so far, so the base timing with his tuner might be higher than what the EED can compensate for
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Old 11-10-2005, 02:39 PM   #34
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird232ci
To reset your ECU, you have to disconnect your battery, and leave it disconnected for a while, so that it will lose the stored memory

EEC-V has come a long way, has a very fast processor compaired to EEC-IV, and many many more inputs. The thing im not quite sure of is if the EEC-V system uses a knock sensor. My Turbo Coupe does, where as the 3.8 and 5.0 cars dont, so i dont know where the 99+ sits in that respect, but the EEC-V is much more adaptive than the previous. They are able to vaugely determine altitude, along with air quality, and as Eclipsedude stated, driving style. He is correct about how it learns the driving style, but Ford did use a base program in the EEC-V setups that are a very nice compromise between economy and performance, and they use that program untill learned otherwise.

As for octane booster, its crap, dont bother, buy good gas next time around.

Just drive the car for a while, sometimes the ping will be persistant, other times it wont, it depends on if the engine will learn otherwise. The computer systems are nutty.
There have been 4 different generations of EEC-Vs used in 94-04 mustangs.

The processor in them is not that fast or capable compared to what is in the 05s. Techincally my graphing calculator has a faster MHZ than the early EEC-Vs.

And as for learning driving style, nope. Even most of the brand new cars do not do that. The only exception is the Ford 500, it learns driving style as it applies to shifting.

3.8s don't have knock sensors, even if they did, only until recently has ford managed to put decent knock sensors into a vehicle. The knock sensor in my truck is useless. The 03-04 Mach 1s have very good knock sensors, the 96-01 cobras are so so.
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Old 11-10-2005, 03:20 PM   #35
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Re: WTF is wrong with my tuner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin00stang
And as for learning driving style, nope. Even most of the brand new cars do not do that. The only exception is the Ford 500, it learns driving style as it applies to shifting.
are you completely sure about that? maybe not so much about predicting how a person will drive, or does drive, but adjusting the tables according to trends that it see's? My father always complains about his car feeling sluggish after i drive it, and i drive it harder than he does.

Quote:
3.8s don't have knock sensors, even if they did, only until recently has ford managed to put decent knock sensors into a vehicle. The knock sensor in my truck is useless. The 03-04 Mach 1s have very good knock sensors, the 96-01 cobras are so so.
The ones in the turbo coupes are overly sensative, to where road noise will sometimes trigger then, and cause the EEC to pull timing, have they gotten them sensative to the proper frequencies or are they just messing with the overall sensativity and hoping to get it right?
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