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Old 12-29-2005, 01:22 AM   #1
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turbo or supercharger

im pretty close to being done with my exterior, and now i dont know what direction to go in with my engine. which do u think is better ( turbo or supercharger ) and what all would i need with it to work properly.
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Old 12-29-2005, 01:55 AM   #2
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Re: turbo or supercharger

First, we would have to ask what car you currently have?

I am assuming you have a 94+ v6, so here goes.

My suggestion is to go super charger. Either a vortech V1 or a Procharger PSC1 (procharger is my recommendation due to it being self contained so no oil pan drilling required.) A turbo will gain you more power more efficiently however it will require a lot more to make it work (headers, intake, turbo, intercooler, etc).

I believe I have read on here that you can run about 8-9 psi on the stock v6 internals with a safe tune. My suggestion would be to get a new rotating assembly from super six motorsports or rpm-mustang and get some lower compression ratio pistons. This will let you run more PSI safely and beef up the internals and make them forged so they won't break.

So, here is what I am thinking.

1.) Get a true dual exhaust setup in prep for pushing more air
2.) Rotating assemble from super six or rpm with pistons with a 8.5-9.0 compression ratio.
3.) Procharger PSC1 @ 11psi
4.) Upgraded fuel system if needed (not 100% sure how well the stock injectors would support the 11 psi)
5.) Get an SCT XCal2 and get dyno tuned so things won't blow up on you

I would go with step 1 first. Step 2 can be done on its own as well. Steps 3-5 would all need to be done at the same time (probably about $6K-$7K with the cost of internals and the SC). That should do you good if you go forced induction.

Now, another option would be to just get the internals as mentioned before only with higher (aka normal) compression ratio, a new cam, some head work, and the exhaust. This would could bring you over the 300 hp range if you do it right....natuarally aspirated. I think this would be my over all best choice recommendation.

Now, if you don't have a V6, it would be a different story and different options. I will let the V6 experts chime in here on what I posted above (I hope it is pretty accurate...I have been studying lol) and the turbo guys since I don't like them and don't remember anything much about them.

Hope this helped some....There are several people on the site that have done both the N/A build up as well as the SC build up. Someone should be able to answer your question of I didn't. lol
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:02 AM   #3
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Re: turbo or supercharger

determine what you want out of the car and we can go about it in a better way. If all you want is a given HP/TQ you may can do it with out a blower, just by building the engine.

I would build the motor first regardless especially if the motor has high miles. Superchargers are more tried and true, but that doesnt mean they are better, just more info out there on em.
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Old 12-29-2005, 12:33 PM   #4
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Need more info. If you want to run any more than 4 psi, you'll need fuel upgrades.
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Old 12-29-2005, 01:37 PM   #5
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Expect to upgrade your drivetrain ans suspension with more power too.

If you were to supercharge, the car still wouldnt be any fun with you doing the one wheel peel. Get a nice set of 3.55 or 3.73 gears for it and a Tractionlok.

Then your gonna just wanna keep doing more so the next step would be handling and some more engine work, maybe the top end? I'd go with the Bullitt Handling Kit and either RPM or Supersix Heads/Cam/Intakes.
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Old 12-29-2005, 04:33 PM   #6
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Honestly dude, if you dont know what you need to properly install a turbo or supercharger, you need to do a lot more research. Forced induction isnt as easy as getting a list of parts and putting it on the car, and making magical horsepower numbers. Yeah, some guys do it, but they dont make nearly the power they should, or they blow up. To spend 3-5K on something, to blow your engine, id take more time to research.

Forced induction is not the end-all-be-all, 6psi of boost wont do much for your dead stock 3.8L (cold air intake, mufflers, and pulley is still stock), it might put you in the 240rwhp range, which is under 300 at the wheels, where as if you do your homework, put together a very good combination, you could easily make good amounts of power.

Who wants to just buy a supercharger or turbo and still be only as fast as a stock mustang GT?
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Old 12-29-2005, 06:10 PM   #7
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Re: turbo or supercharger

I would rather have a turbo'ed v6 for the uniqueness(is that a word?) over a supercharged GT anyday. I dont need 500 horsepower out of a car, but 300 would be nice.

All Im sayin.
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Old 12-29-2005, 06:55 PM   #8
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird232ci
Honestly dude, if you dont know what you need to properly install a turbo or supercharger, you need to do a lot more research. Forced induction isnt as easy as getting a list of parts and putting it on the car, and making magical horsepower numbers. Yeah, some guys do it, but they dont make nearly the power they should, or they blow up. To spend 3-5K on something, to blow your engine, id take more time to research.

Forced induction is not the end-all-be-all, 6psi of boost wont do much for your dead stock 3.8L (cold air intake, mufflers, and pulley is still stock), it might put you in the 240rwhp range, which is under 300 at the wheels, where as if you do your homework, put together a very good combination, you could easily make good amounts of power.

Who wants to just buy a supercharger or turbo and still be only as fast as a stock mustang GT?
Yeh...240 is less than 300...
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Old 12-29-2005, 06:55 PM   #9
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiljosh
I would rather have a turbo'ed v6 for the uniqueness(is that a word?) over a supercharged GT anyday. I dont need 500 horsepower out of a car, but 300 would be nice.

All Im sayin.
and 300 is nice...
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Old 12-29-2005, 07:18 PM   #10
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Re: turbo or supercharger

300 is decent, but in the world of 550rwhp bolt on cars, that aint ****

ive seen LS1's put down 470 at the wheels with heads, cam, intake, and all the bolt ons with a tune, and we all know the 03 cobra's can be nasty
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:30 PM   #11
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Now that's just silliness... I'll take the power, I don't care how ya get it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiljosh
I would rather have a turbo'ed v6 for the uniqueness(is that a word?) over a supercharged GT anyday. I dont need 500 horsepower out of a car, but 300 would be nice.

All Im sayin.
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Old 12-31-2005, 04:42 AM   #12
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Re: turbo or supercharger

for ease of install id go with a SC. itll get you the goal you want without all the hassle im about to list.

turbos arent easy thing to put on a car that doesnt come with them stock. gotta run oil feed lines, return lines, and if the turbo is also water cooled, gotta run water feeds and returns. get a header(or headers) with the turbo flange you need. then you gotta get downpipes and collectors to get back into your exhaust. then you gotta run wastegate(s), which is a bypass valve that controls how much air flows through the turbo or around it, controlling boost. you gotta run that from the header to the exhaust(or dump it under the car if you want a loud wastegate that sounds like a fart once full boost is reached).

now thats the hard part. you still need to run intake piping to the turbo and from it, and fab up a intercooler system(be it air to air front mount, or air to water, etc), then run even more pipes.

then its on to fuel and tuning, the most important part. everything above means jack **** if the car isnt tuned or doesnt have sufficient fuel, cause 1 pull without tuning, and all that work will be in vain while you look into a new motor cause you melted pistons. so you gotta get bigger fuel pumps, injectors, pressure regulators(unless your returnless style). then you gotta get it tuned, which if its my car, its getting towed from my house straight to the dyno after a quick ride around the block to make sure theres no leaks and it still moves.

then after all that is said and done, no boost leaks, tuned right, timing good, youre gonna break drivetrain parts. expect your stock tranny not to last long, and launching with your newfound power is going to snap rear axles like toothpicks, add slicks to the equation, and its going to turn rear ends into a chocolate shake, and twist driveshafts like theyre tinfoil.

BUT..........after all is said and done, the turbo will be more efficient. you still gotta do all that tuning anyways with the SC, and unlike a Turbo, a SC robs quite a bit of power to make it. say take two exact mustang GT's, one running 9psi with a SC and one running 9psi with a Turbo, and the turbo one is going to be faster, both off the line(itll have less torque to spin the tires due to not getting full boost till later in the rpm range), and up top, where unlike a SC, a turbo wont run out of steam and flow, it just keeps spinnin.

now add a forged rotating assembly, heads n cams, the whole shibbang, and use that turbo(or turbos) to the fullest, youre gonna kick some major ****ing ***.

and for the price of a KB Blowzilla or equal kit, you can buy almost 2 just as capible kits, or create them yourself. if you have the ability to do your own fab work, as well as run oil/water lines, make(Or find) headers with flanges, make your own pipes and find a intercooler(cheap if you know where to look), do the fuel system work and get it tuned, as well as know what type of Turbo is best suited for your needs(bigger is not always better, while bigger flows more air, it also takes longer to spool up and hit full boost), you can make your own turbo kit for fairly cheap, id say under ~2500 being conservative and buying alot of new parts(like fuel system and turbo), if you get that **** used, even cheaper.

also, just as a reminder to others. dont try to ask how to run 11's if you havent ran 12's or 13's or even 14's. just a rule of thumb. the slower your venture to a certain goal, the quicker you will get there in the end over the person who does everything at once but cant drive cause hes not used to it. so its best to set your sights for 13's, then when you get there, go for 12's, and so on and so forth. we cant all be like bryan spilner and buy a 10 second car with overnight parts from japan and take it to race wars a week later. im kinda buzzing from a few glasses of disoronno so im gonna end it at that.
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Old 12-31-2005, 09:56 PM   #13
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Quote:
Originally Posted by EclipseGSTdude
say take two exact mustang GT's, one running 9psi with a SC and one running 9psi with a Turbo, and the turbo one is going to be faster, both off the line(itll have less torque to spin the tires due to not getting full boost till later in the rpm range), .

evertime i see you post that a turbo does not build peak boost till later in the rpm i am gonna call BS. that is the advantage of a turbo over a S/C it builds boost faster. and therefore makes more low end tq then a S/C. it has more average hp and more average tq then a s/c will at the same boost level. this is a proven fact.

edit: a roots or a positive displacement blower(Eaton,Kenne Bell,Wipple makes instant boost)
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Old 01-01-2006, 05:16 AM   #14
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Quote:
Originally Posted by white95v6
evertime i see you post that a turbo does not build peak boost till later in the rpm i am gonna call BS. that is the advantage of a turbo over a S/C it builds boost faster. and therefore makes more low end tq then a S/C. it has more average hp and more average tq then a s/c will at the same boost level. this is a proven fact.
no it doesnt you ****tard. SC's are ****ing insta-boost. turbo's have lag, i have yet to see a turbo that doesnt have lag and doesnt take a bit of time to build to full boost. ****. the advantage of a SC is that its instant, and its there from idle. ive yet to see a SC have any type of lag time thats longer than even the smallest of turbo's. only time ive seen turbos build boost off the line is those running a studderbox or brakeboosting. jesus. dam. even a 2.6(or maybe 2.8 if i remember)KB Cobra hit the gas in 3rd, and the ****er went from 0 to 12psi instantly. not even my T25 on my GST hit 12psi that fast.and theres people running bigger turbo's(60trims) that dont get any type of positive boost till 4k, and dont hit even 20psi till around 5k. theyre all top end. all the ****ing torque curves ive seen of turbo'd cars, the torque hits its peak as the turbo hits full boost, due to all the power coming on at once, and that peak usually lasts maybe 1000rpms from the time full boost is reached. maybe the few that are torquey little quick spooling turbo'd cars, they sure in the hell werent made to be fast anywhere but between city blocks.

show me a SC that has lag, and show me a torque map of a turbo car thats making ****loads of low end power, cause i have not seen it.

and ****, if turbo's are so great down low, then why do people in higher elevations try the TwinCharging setup, utilizing a roots type SC for the down low for power while the turbo is spooling, and then have it to where the SC switches off at a certain RPM(using a clutch like pulley youd see on a a/c)as the turbo reaches full boost? explain that to me. explain why all my life, i have known that if you want down low power and quick response, go supercharged. if you want top end and dont care about lag, get turbo'd. now you come along, and i guess you know something i dont?

Quote:
Originally Posted by white95v6
it has more average hp and more average tq then a s/c will at the same boost level. this is a proven fact.
i know. that i will agree with you on, which i did and you quoted me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EclipseGSTdude
say take two exact mustang GT's, one running 9psi with a SC and one running 9psi with a Turbo, and the turbo one is going to be faster, both off the line(itll have less torque to spin the tires due to not getting full boost till later in the rpm range), and up top, where unlike a SC, a turbo wont run out of steam and flow, it just keeps spinnin.
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Old 01-01-2006, 09:34 AM   #15
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Re: turbo or supercharger

*sigh*

Its all in the setup. A supercharger generally relies on RPM to determine what its boost level is. Its impossible to make full boost at 1500 RPMs all the way up to a 7K redline. Yes, it may make some boost, but same thing goes with a turbo. The difference with a turbo and supercharger is how the boost comes in, and where it comes in. My friends supercoupe with an M90 makes full boost at something like 3500 RPMs, where as my hybrid makes fully boost at about 3000 rpms, his boost gradually builds untill its full, if you watch my boost gauge, it goes 1....3...5....21

you can NEVER say "a turbo does this while a supercharger does that", its the most idiotic thing you can say, because you can run 2 different turbos on the same engine, and they act completely different, and you can run two different superchargers, and they act completely different. Trying to generalize things that vary completely from one another does nothing more than make you look like an idiot half the time.
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Old 01-01-2006, 12:15 PM   #16
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Re: turbo or supercharger

yes i am a ****tard now.

any ways you freaking fool. you have to define the s/c you are talking about. yes a Roots or a positive blower will give instant boost(Eaton,Wipple,Kenne BEll). 1500rpm and you got almost full boost.

a centrifugal blower depends on RPM to make boost.(Procharger,Vortech,Powerdyne,Novi) soo you do not make peak boost untill peak rpm.

a turbo is load dependent. soo when you make load you get boost. most of the time if you buld the kit right you get full boost by 3200-3500rpm. my turbo starts to build boost 2300(3-5psi) and has full boost by 3200(18 or 28psi depends on the wastegate setting) that was with a 62-1 turbo. i am stepping up the a T72. and guess what it will build boost just as fast. you know why cause the system will be built right.
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Old 01-01-2006, 02:14 PM   #17
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Keep this discussion Civil & Technical.
Abusive language & name calling Will get you in trouble
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Old 01-01-2006, 09:51 PM   #18
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Quote:
Originally Posted by white95v6
yes i am a ****tard now.

any ways you freaking fool. you have to define the s/c you are talking about. yes a Roots or a positive blower will give instant boost(Eaton,Wipple,Kenne BEll). 1500rpm and you got almost full boost.

a centrifugal blower depends on RPM to make boost.(Procharger,Vortech,Powerdyne,Novi) soo you do not make peak boost untill peak rpm.

a turbo is load dependent. soo when you make load you get boost. most of the time if you buld the kit right you get full boost by 3200-3500rpm. my turbo starts to build boost 2300(3-5psi) and has full boost by 3200(18 or 28psi depends on the wastegate setting) that was with a 62-1 turbo. i am stepping up the a T72. and guess what it will build boost just as fast. you know why cause the system will be built right.
i believe whipster has a vortech, ask him when he gets full boost. a centrifugal still runs off a belt the same as a roots. even the auto 95 5.0 i test drove with a vortech kit showed almost 10psi by 3000rpm. prolly wouldve bought that, if it was a manual without 150k.

and i doubt it will build boost as fast, unless the 62 trim wasnt BB and the T72 is. ill be waiting for the dyno chart and MAP chart showing which RPMs were showing what boost levels.

btw, sorry about the ****tard thing, i was still buzzing from new years, and dont take it as a insult, cause ****tard is one of my favorite words to call people. just one of those things you cant truly express over a internet forum.
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Old 01-01-2006, 10:13 PM   #19
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Re: turbo or supercharger

ok i have a realy serious question for you. do you understand how a centrifugal blower works? cause i don't think you do. it is RPM dependent. meaning that it needs to be spun alot of RPM to build alot of boost.

on a side note i have never seen a Centrifugal blower make more than 2-4psi by 3000rpm.

and just to let you know the 62-1 was a P-trim .81 a/r open exhaust housing. it had standard bearings.

the T72 is a Q-trim with a .84 split exhaust housing. i am also going to run half the engine to one half the exhaust housing. and the other half to the other side of the housing. trust me this will spool just as fast as the 62 did. and yea the t72 is standard bearing too.
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Old 01-02-2006, 12:46 AM   #20
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Re: turbo or supercharger

We should sticky this thread and just make it the official "Which is Better Thread"

:pnoid:
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:57 AM   #21
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Re: turbo or supercharger

it would need edited to remove the ****tard comments... hahaha
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:44 AM   #22
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Re: turbo or supercharger

there cant be a thread about which is better, because niether is better

one might be better for a specific application then another, for a budget, for a goal, a skill level, but neither is better than eachother

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Old 01-02-2006, 06:20 PM   #23
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Then why the **** does everyone keep trying to argue about which is better?!?!?!?!
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:03 PM   #24
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Re: turbo or supercharger

Quote:
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Then why the **** does everyone keep trying to argue about which is better?!?!?!?!
Human nature. Everyone likes to have the biggest cock.
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:36 PM   #25
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Re: turbo or supercharger

It would seem that too many people think they know all, and can't admit when they are wrong. Guess what! I posted once in this thread previously and it still got out of proportion because of others! People can't seem to keep a poweradder thread clean because they "know too much". :tired:

Anyway, the only thing that would make one better than the other is the application. I personaly believe the turbo set up to have less drawbacks than a supercharger, but someone else's application may be different from mine, making a supercharger better.

Also, using common sense, a supercharger does have instant boost because it's rpm driven, but the amount of boost at low rpms is infinitesimal (sp?) until you get very high rpms. Who cares if you're pushing a whole 1/3 psi?
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