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Old 08-09-2006, 09:00 PM   #1
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New CEL's...

Well the car has been missing at idle and occaisionally at higher rpm's ever since I got it back from the dynotuner tards. I have been trying to figure out the cause the whole itme and have been largely unsuccessful.

Well today I changed my oil because I noticed the other day that my oil was almost black after only about 2k miles. I drove it around a bit and left it in idle while I cleaned things up. When I was done, I decided just for the heck of it to hook my Xcall up to it to see if maybe there were any new CEL's (as I have done already several times). I have a constant EGR code BTW so I don't know if I have any new codes unless I hook the reader up. I found I had 3 new codes:

P2196 (O2 Sens Signal Stuck Rich bank 1 Sens 1)
P2197 (O2 Sens Signal Stuck Lean bank 2 Sens 1)
P2198 (O2 Sens Signal Stuck Rich bank 2 Sens 1)

So does anyone have any insight on these codes? Could it be possible that I have bad or dirty O2's? Because I don't see how I can have a Stuck Rich and a Stuck Lean on the same sensor. I'm goinng to try cleaning them in the morning to see if that helps.

If anyone has seen these codes before let me know.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:11 PM   #2
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Re: New CEL's...

Maybe all that heat from the turbo is frying them. Its a little odd that you are getting a rich AND a lean signal from the same sensor(bank 2 sens 1). Did you delete the cats out of your exhaust?

Maybe you can get some o2's designed for use in turbo applications, I would imagine that thing puts a little more heat to the o2's than a stock engine.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:16 PM   #3
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Re: New CEL's...

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Originally Posted by Kiljosh View Post
Maybe all that heat from the turbo is frying them. Its a little odd that you are getting a rich AND a lean signal from the same sensor(bank 2 sens 1). Did you delete the cats out of your exhaust?

Maybe you can get some o2's designed for use in turbo applications, I would imagine that thing puts a little more heat to the o2's than a stock engine.
I suppose it's possible, but I haven't heard of any other peeps with the same setup having that problem....

As far as having both on the same sensor, that's what I'm thinking, they might be either dirty or bad...:dunno: Yes my cats are deleted, but that would be Sensor 2 codes would they not?

If it did end up being the heat, I could probably just put some spark plug wire covers over them, because the sensors are now mounted in the collectors of my headers.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:20 PM   #4
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Re: New CEL's...

Haha double post.

I dunno I would read up on how those MIL Eliminators work and see if they would fix your problem. I have emissions here so I need my cats and havent had any experience with this sort of thing.

I would check and see if those elmi's fix your problem, or else buy some better 02 sensors. :dunno:
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:40 PM   #5
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Re: New CEL's...

I don't have a need for MIL's because the cats and rear O2's are just entirely deleted...completely, lol. There is not even aything to plug a MIL into. Plus, I don't think the Cat detecting O2's would cause misfiring...
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:47 PM   #6
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Re: New CEL's...

Well, does your ECU know you have no rear o2's? Cause if they are just gone and it's not getting any kind of signal, and it doesn't know they have been deleted I would imagine that would cause some problems.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:50 PM   #7
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Re: New CEL's...

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Well, does your ECU know you have no rear o2's? Cause if they are just gone and it's not getting any kind of signal, and it doesn't know they have been deleted I would imagine that would cause some problems.
Yeah it knows. The codes are for the upstream sensors though anyway :dunno:
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:51 PM   #8
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Re: New CEL's...

What is the shop saying? I would replace them and see if you burnt them up with the turbo. About all I can offer advice wise.
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Old 08-09-2006, 10:03 PM   #9
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Re: New CEL's...

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What is the shop saying? I would replace them and see if you burnt them up with the turbo. About all I can offer advice wise.
They wouldn't know what to say.

Needless to say, never go to Alabama Mustang in Cullman, Alabama.
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Old 08-10-2006, 09:35 AM   #10
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Re: New CEL's...

I'd call or email VMP and see what they have to say
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Old 08-10-2006, 04:20 PM   #11
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Re: New CEL's...

If I were you, I'd go back to Alabama Mustang and that other dyno place both... and challenge them to a duel. A few slaps across the face with a white glove should suffice.

Then I'd do something with mayonnaise and kiwi fruit juice which I am not allowed to mention.
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Old 08-10-2006, 08:40 PM   #12
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Re: New CEL's...

I swear no one in the southeast can dynotune.

Anyone want to go in half with me and go to all the SCT classes and open our own dyno shop in Alabama?
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Old 08-10-2006, 09:01 PM   #13
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Re: New CEL's...

Actually, I hope to be able to do that some day. It'll be a while though. I gotta get rich and move to Huntsville first.
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Old 08-10-2006, 09:05 PM   #14
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Re: New CEL's...

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Actually, I hope to be able to do that some day. It'll be a while though. I gotta get rich and move to Huntsville first.
Depending on where I'm at financially, I would go in with you.

Seriously.
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:49 AM   #15
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Re: New CEL's...

Give me some more ideas guys. Just go throguh everything that would make a car miss and we will see if I have already addressed that or if it's not applicable....Think of it as a game and whoever helps DarkShadow fine the miss gets an E-cookie.
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:57 AM   #16
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Re: New CEL's...

Fouled plug(s).
Bad plug wire(s).
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:58 AM   #17
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Re: New CEL's...

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Fouled plug(s).
Bad plug wire(s).
See my new thread

Everyone go to new thread for a full list of what I have tried and to post ideas. Thanks.
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:04 AM   #18
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Re: New CEL's...

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Originally Posted by DarkShadow View Post
I swear no one in the southeast can dynotune.

Anyone want to go in half with me and go to all the SCT classes and open our own dyno shop in Alabama?
RWTD in mobile would have prevented this problem assuming it isn't a bad sensor. They know their ****. VMP isn't too shabby either and they are in the south east. Amazon Racing is somewhere in SC which is also in the SE. They also know their **** and are one of the premier tuners in the country.

You just needed to ask about shops and/or be willing to drive a few hours ( depending on where athens is) to get the job done right. I think your statement is better stated as "No one in the near vacinity of my house can dyno tune".

As for your problem, for a sensor to read rich one second then lean the next has to be a result of one of 3 things I can think of (keeping in mind I am not a master tech)

1.) Sensor has **** the bed
2.) Fuel is not being delivered in a consitent manner cause the A/F to bounce all over the place...you should get on a dyno or get a wide band commander and monitor your A/F during a pull.
3.) There is a massive leak somewhere in the intake track introducing a lot of unmetered air into the system or the MAF meter is fouled or pegged causing the computer to do weird **** trying to maintain proper A/F.
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:10 AM   #19
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Re: New CEL's...

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RWTD in mobile would have prevented this problem assuming it isn't a bad sensor. They know their ****. VMP isn't too shabby either and they are in the south east. Amazon Racing is somewhere in SC which is also in the SE. They also know their **** and are one of the premier tuners in the country.

You just needed to ask about shops and/or be willing to drive a few hours ( depending on where athens is) to get the job done right. I think your statement is better stated as "No one in the near vacinity of my house can dyno tune".

As for your problem, for a sensor to read rich one second then lean the next has to be a result of one of 3 things I can think of (keeping in mind I am not a master tech)

1.) Sensor has **** the bed
2.) Fuel is not being delivered in a consitent manner cause the A/F to bounce all over the place...you should get on a dyno or get a wide band commander and monitor your A/F during a pull.
3.) There is a massive leak somewhere in the intake track introducing a lot of unmetered air into the system or the MAF meter is fouled or pegged causing the computer to do weird **** trying to maintain proper A/F.
Well Delk was supposed to be one of the premier tuners in the southeast and they are about 5 hours from the house. They did all right, but were not great at cutomer service and charged out the *** like you have no idea. Try 3k for my tune.
This second place was **** though.

1) is a possibilty. How would I know for sure short of getting new ones?
2) Yeah the Ford guy said that's all he can think of but there are probably a dozen or more things that can cause a miss and he only address a few so IDK...I have a wideband and have done a few logs and of course the A/F spikes all over the place, but I don't know if that is BECAUSE of the miss or if it's CAUSING the miss....:dunno:
3) Pretty sure the MAF has not pegged as the old tune was fine as far as that goes. Where would a potential leak occurr do you think?
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:22 AM   #20
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Re: New CEL's...

Moved to other thread so this one can die.
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Old 08-19-2006, 07:29 AM   #21
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Re: New CEL's...

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Well Delk was supposed to be one of the premier tuners in the southeast and they are about 5 hours from the house. They did all right, but were not great at cutomer service and charged out the *** like you have no idea. Try 3k for my tune.
This second place was **** though.

1) is a possibilty. How would I know for sure short of getting new ones?
2) Yeah the Ford guy said that's all he can think of but there are probably a dozen or more things that can cause a miss and he only address a few so IDK...I have a wideband and have done a few logs and of course the A/F spikes all over the place, but I don't know if that is BECAUSE of the miss or if it's CAUSING the miss....:dunno:
3) Pretty sure the MAF has not pegged as the old tune was fine as far as that goes. Where would a potential leak occurr do you think?
$3000.00 for JUST a tune I find that hard to believe . post up the bill
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Old 08-19-2006, 11:56 AM   #22
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Re: New CEL's...

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Well Delk was supposed to be one of the premier tuners in the southeast and they are about 5 hours from the house. They did all right, but were not great at cutomer service and charged out the *** like you have no idea. Try 3k for my tune.
This second place was **** though.

well i know it was not 3k for a Tune. it was more like 3K to fix all the things you had wrong with your Install. i mean if you want i can list them all out for ya.2:

also i drove the car more then once. car ran fine. we left it Safe on the fuel if i remember right it was about 11.2-11.5 on A/F and the timeing was safe also. and if i remember right. i told you if you needed anything. to let me know and we would work on the tune. and if i remember right it was gonna be free of charge.(if you had not messed with anything) not saying you had.
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Old 08-19-2006, 12:03 PM   #23
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Re: New CEL's...

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well i know it was not 3k for a Tune. it was more like 3K to fix all the things you had wrong with your Install. i mean if you want i can list them all out for ya.2:

also i drove the car more then once. car ran fine. we left it Safe on the fuel if i remember right it was about 11.2-11.5 on A/F and the timeing was safe also. and if i remember right. i told you if you needed anything. to let me know and we would work on the tune. and if i remember right it was gonna be free of charge.(if you had not messed with anything) not saying you had.
yes I want to see a list of the things you fixed. lol at darkshadow. damn you can't get any better then free of charge. always more then one side to a story...

what about a messed up cam position sensor?
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Old 08-19-2006, 07:58 PM   #24
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Re: New CEL's...

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yes I want to see a list of the things you fixed.

lmao. i won't post them. cause its not my problem. i just wanted to make sure ppl don't think Delk charges 3k to tune a car. we did alot more then that.
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Old 08-19-2006, 08:52 PM   #25
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Re: New CEL's...

I have had a lot of work done & Delk & will continue to go there.
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Old 08-20-2006, 09:07 PM   #26
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Re: New CEL's...

When I spoke with Brent Delk about the bill situation, he said that dyno and tune time alone would have been well above 2K. He said that it took a total of 30 pulls to get it where it was at and apparently charged for all of them. All I know is that my bank account was $2800 less when I left.

Not saying, you didn't do a good job, but I decided to up the boost and extra 1.6 PSI and I really wanted a hand held. I know the hand held part was not your fault since Diablo did not make a Predator for my vin (or something like that).

Yes, there are 2 sides to every story.

As far as the majority of the cost not being the tune. All I can say is what Brent told me the majority of the bill was going to be...IE the tuning. As far as what I was told and what I saw, the only things wrong with the install were the oil drain line, I needed some heat wrap for the wiring, a line was not hooked up, and all the problems we were ALL having with that stupid tranny cooler. I know the tranny cooler was a major thing and that cost another day by itself probably, but the spraying leak was not the fault of installation, it was a faulty fin (is what I was told).

As far as the customer service, I felt like I never really knew what was going on. The second day, when we were told that the car was done and we were to come get, we trucked up there for the 5 hour trip only to find out, you guys never planned on having it ready that day once we got there. But I do respect and appreciate that you guys did try and probably would ahve had it if not for the cooler. The issue of the extra day was NOT a problem, but finding out once we got there that it was not supposed to be done that day when we were told it would be, was aggravating as a whole day was wasted getting there and going back. That's why I was aggravated with the service, plus I still don't know what all the problems were with the MAF. All I was told was that "there were a lot of problems getting it to work so we had to put in a 80mm MAF". This was also fine, as that was probably better than the Xtender, but it just woud have been nice to know some specifics, especially since I was there and could have been told in person. Plus, I am still not sure what the deal was with not having a hand held for it. :dunno:

In addition, I was never told that enhancements to the tune would have been free. This would ahve been nice to know, and I would certainly have been willing to take up that offer as I got to drive it around and find where it was lacking.

So yeah, there are 2 sides to everything and my itemized bill was mostly for tuning. I felt that it was not my fault that it took 30 pulls to get the tune correct.
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Old 08-20-2006, 09:16 PM   #27
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Re: New CEL's...

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yes I want to see a list of the things you fixed. lol at darkshadow. damn you can't get any better then free of charge. always more then one side to a story...

what about a messed up cam position sensor?
Umm....yeah, I would like to see the list also, because if there was more than what I listed above, than I was not informed...like on other things.

Again, I was never told it would be free. For 3k it should have anyway.

Again, yep, more than one side.
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Old 08-20-2006, 09:21 PM   #28
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Re: New CEL's...

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lmao. i won't post them. cause its not my problem. i just wanted to make sure ppl don't think Delk charges 3k to tune a car. we did alot more then that.
If there was more, I think I should know, because I listed all the ones I was aware of...
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Old 08-20-2006, 09:40 PM   #29
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Re: New CEL's...

Just a general Dyno rule of thumb.

Make sure your car is ready. I have seen cars come for tuning with the plug wires on wrong causing delays & costing $$. There are also unforseen things that pop up, I had several with my H/C/I that caused tuning issues until resolved.
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Old 08-20-2006, 09:46 PM   #30
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Re: New CEL's...

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Just a general Dyno rule of thumb.

Make sure your car is ready. I have seen cars come for tuning with the plug wires on wrong causing delays & costing $$. There are also unforseen things that pop up, I had several with my H/C/I that caused tuning issues until resolved.
Well, I'm sure. But everything I was told was pointed out as soon as they got the car up on the lift and before they started tuning. So IDK about anything else. :dunno:
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Old 08-20-2006, 09:49 PM   #31
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Re: New CEL's...

Another thing that was not communicated was where you guys stopped at with the dyno and the PSI levels. I did not know what numbers it made or what PSI it stopped at until I got back up there. You left it at 10 which I had been floating between 10 and 11 at the time and never completely decided. But it would have been nice to get a "Hey man, these are the numbers we got and this is the PSI we stopped at, is this cool with you?". Only takes 2 minutes to do that...
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:20 AM   #32
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Re: New CEL's...

I am sure there are two sides to every story. But if it takes anyone 30 runs to tune a car, they probably don't need to be tuning. Especially when it's a mild turbo setup. I personally would be very pissed off if I found that my car was ran on the dyno 30 times period. A dyno puts a lot of stress on an engine, especially when it's FI.

If someone from Delk can give a valid justification, I may feel differently. However, for the time being I can say that I'm glad I decided not to take my car there for a tune..
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:49 AM   #33
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Re: New CEL's...

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I am sure there are two sides to every story. But if it takes anyone 30 runs to tune a car, they probably don't need to be tuning. Especially when it's a mild turbo setup. I personally would be very pissed off if I found that my car was ran on the dyno 30 times period. A dyno puts a lot of stress on an engine, especially when it's FI.

If someone from Delk can give a valid justification, I may feel differently. However, for the time being I can say that I'm glad I decided not to take my car there for a tune..
I have seen Jerry W. take that many pulls to get a modified SHO tuned and he is one of the top tuners in the country.

I agree if it's the average car being tuned.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:56 AM   #34
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Re: New CEL's...

wouldnt you consider letting the owner know that you are going to be doing an extra 20-25 dyno pulls on their car as it is being hard to get tuned, or at least giving them the heads up as to "hey it may take quite a few pulls" or at least disclosing the payment up front, not hiding it, as to it may take a good many pulls for me to do my job right, and I will charge you for every single one. If you dont know up front and you see its turning into this giving them a call and letting them know before you just assume something and go about your business.

I have no idea, did delk do this? If so good job on their part.
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Old 08-21-2006, 09:51 AM   #35
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Re: New CEL's...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectorV View Post
I have no idea, did delk do this? If so good job on their part.
No they did not. I was only there the first day they had it and the last day they had it. The first day they did probably 5 or so, but they apparently managed to fit in another 25 in the second day as it was off the dyno on the last day.

I don't know, but this is how many times Brent himself told me it took....
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