How much HP r Stage 3 intakes netting. - Mustang Evolution

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Old 10-22-2003, 06:48 PM   #1
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How much HP r Stage 3 intakes netting.

At the crank what would a set of stage 3 intakes give me HP and TQ wise with my stock heads and cam. Im guessing around 15HP and 15lbs of TQ.
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:19 PM   #2
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ATTN: This is a PLUG!

We have developed a porting process which does not involve a stage 3 title.
Basically no cutting and welding. The runners are not shortened and the inside of the plenum is not polished, yet with the proper techniques performed at the TB inlet and the bottom of the runners, we have achieved a great amount of flow, or velocity may be more proper.

It may simply be due to the right amount of research rather than trial and error based on customer input, but "cutting & welding" which I believe is a stage 3 is simply a means of making up for where improper ( or I should say not as well a job ) porting was done.

And the secret and there is one is NOT in the polishing but the porting technique.

So even though our kit is rather a high priced one compared to others, the intakes are actually cheaper because no extra labor is needed in the cutting or welding process.

I am currently getting schooled heavily in this right now in prep for the Venom Kits release.
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:36 PM   #3
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After reading all that I didn't even answer your question.
Suprisingly the gains can be contributed in large part to the P&P of the heads themselves and that is where we gained our info. On a stock set, I really have no clue, because our intakes are specifically designed to match the heads that we P&P.

Think of it as a train going down the track. Air is the train.
You have 4 different tracks.
Upper intake,
Lower Intake,
and the Heads,
Then the combustion chamber.

You would not want to have the train switching tracks 4 times or else it slows down the process and the air. But when you have one set of tracks it flows smooth as butter. Our Kit, is the same as one set of tracks.

And the great misnomer, is no, it is not all about gasket maching.
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Old 10-22-2003, 08:26 PM   #4
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very interesting indeed id like to c the dyno numbers on ur venom packs when u get it setup. By then i might be able to afford it.
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Old 10-22-2003, 08:38 PM   #5
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The actual numbers should be released by Nov 1st.
That is when we are going to really start pushing the kit and you can't push something without numbers.

But that is when I was told I can answer any question regarding HP#'s.
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Old 10-22-2003, 08:45 PM   #6
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ok answer this for me. My main plan is to spray my car and i have basically everything i need (fordtune,trannycooler, fuel pump) to run a fairly safe 75 shot and a 100 shot every once in awhile. My car has 48k miles on it. The main reason i decided to go the n2o route was because of the problems ppl have with changing the cam and heads valves ect. Like stangin99 has right now with his setup. I feel that its not worth it to put all this time and money into running a N/A setup and not having ur car run right afterwards. What do u have to say about the reliability of a daily driver with one of ur venom packs and what steps do u take to make sure the owner of the car who purchased ur pack has a good running car.
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Old 10-22-2003, 09:07 PM   #7
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Our kits are wholey and entirley daily driver cool! That is what most of the research entailed was pushing the 3.8 to it's limits, finding exactly where that is, and then backing off to get a quality kit without tearing up the car.

Now as far as adding Nitrous to that setup, I wouldn't advise it. We have not even gone there in our testing yet. I would think that the added stress of nitrous in combination with the kit is not a good combo to have without the engine being beefed up.

At a future date we plan to test our kit with nitrous and a s/c setup, but we will not promise anything with regard to reliability.

As far as the problem the other V6er is having I think his issues are related to over porting. Gaining HP but loosing torque is exactly what that sounds like. He got lucky to gain the HP if over porting was the case, but I am not entirly familier with his setup so i am grasping at straws.

Installation is VERY important. Our kit is flawless however if on the installation there is an issue with something that needs tgo be addressed you need a knowledgable mechanic to spot it out. Such as cam installation, prolly the trickiest aspect of installation. We simply supply parts, if the car performs like crap afterward, then we can only look to installation as the issue.

Not sure if that helps. Hope it does.
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Old 10-22-2003, 09:16 PM   #8
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Sure does ill be awaiting the new dyno numbers thx.
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Old 10-24-2003, 10:27 AM   #9
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Re: How much HP r Stage 3 intakes netting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusclesFromBrussels
At the crank what would a set of stage 3 intakes give me HP and TQ wise with my stock heads and cam. Im guessing around 15HP and 15lbs of TQ.
Maybe that much if you are lucky, and rev it, since Stage 3 is
higher RPM oriented, to take advantage of the shorter runners.
But stock cam and heads are a big limiting factor.

I agree with alot of what EE says, I rarely suggest a Stage 3
over a Stage 1 any more, but there are certain instances that
it would pay off to have a 3. There was a stage 2 but that was
an R&D thing, I was calling it 1, 2, and 3 when I was trying different
things, this goes all the way back to 1997 for the V6 R&D. Most
people who would think a Stage 3 is the ticket might actually
need a Stage X like I did for Jose.

BTW, Stage 3 was never to make up for improper porting.

Quote:
..."cutting & welding" which I believe is a stage 3 is simply a means of making up for where improper ( or I should say not as well a job ) porting was done...
Never the case for me, but there are many places doing it now and
some are defunct, most of the competition has to have a "me too"
product because of perceived value, it seems EE is trying to do more
with less which is admirable. I've always been like that, (more with less)
but there are other compelling reasons to do a Stage 3 or custom uppers,
you just have to know why it is done and to what situations it applies.
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Old 10-24-2003, 05:52 PM   #10
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A custom upper is different from a stage 3. At least with a custom upper you are deciding what to allow the air to do and how to do it. A stage 3 is more manipulation and eventually you hit a wall and are forced to "submit" to the intake.

We did try the cutting and welding method just to see how it worked and it just was not worth the trouble.

We made power shifting at 6000 + RPM's on the 94-98 and using the stage 3 to achive that just wasn't needed.

I also didn't mean to imply that your porting or products were done improperly (although that is what I siad). But with regard to flow cutting and welding is useless. So if your doing it for flow, there is no need for it.
As far as gaining HP in the band with cutting and wleding, I guess we simply went about it another fashion and didn't use the intake for that.
The 94-98 intake leaves alot to be desired as far as what it can and can't do, which is why a custom upper is the only viable way we can see to increase HP even more. We have hit a wall with that intake.
Are we working on a custom upper project at this time?
No.
We are now focusing on the 99+ heads and intakes. And no it won't take 9 months for that to come out, at least I hope not.

RGR, as for your work. I have heard nothing but good things about it.
We have just found what works for us.
There are many ways to add to 10. As long as you end up with what you want, that is all that counts.
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Old 10-25-2003, 08:30 AM   #11
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Steve is it??? Nice to meet you, I was not offended by anything you said,
I was just adding a bit to your comments. Stage 1 (well done) is good for
most setups, the V6 single port intakes have approximately 50% more
cross-sectional area than a 5.0 (which you probably know, just stating
it for the layman) so it is a good piece stock, with the crossover tube being
the exception, but it has good wall thickness to allow much enlargement.
The advantages to a properly done Stage 3 (over a 1) are simply these:

1. The whole intake in smoothed and polished inside, which
reduces heat transfer to the intake charge. But Extrude Hone
does this also, at similar cost.

2. When I did my first cut-n-weld it was to shorten the runners also,
which contrary to theory, added low end torque and top end HP both!

These trends led me to start making custom uppers, with much larger plenums,
which is best for a high HP setup because like you said, you can make the air
do what you want it to do. I gotta pic, on the other computer
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Old 10-25-2003, 06:43 PM   #12
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Yes it is Steve. So you make custom uppers? I would really like to see our package with a custom upper just to see how much better it performs. One reason we haven't gone into that aspect of it is because of cost of research. We based the kits on a little over 9 months of testing and have yet to make a single penny off a kit. But we are finnaly introducing them on Dec 1st. And we simply can't keep up with adding more and more to the list or else we would be doing nothing but R&D for the next 3 years. And you can't stay in business without making $$.

But I have seen another companys custom upper and it looks good.

I also have it on good authority (Danger Dude) that you have built or been apart of some of the fastest V6 3.8s around. I would really like to see one of your custom uppers.
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Old 10-25-2003, 09:55 PM   #13
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The dyno graph:


The pic:


another: (the bread ties are to hold the gasket on for shipping)


and finally:


This plenum came out at ~3.7 or 3.8 liters, and it worked well
w/SC! This combo is also the highest known emissions legal
HP setup for a pre-99 V6 going. 332 RWHP & 318 RWTq.
11# ATI SC. Mild cam, stock valve heads, what I call full NA
porting and he now has MAC shorties and full dual exhaust.

Stage 3 over Stage 1 on Jose's engine (NA trim) showed only
a 2 RWHP increase, but good torque at certain RPM's and equal
everywhere else, but when I got it back in trade for the custom upper,
I found that Jose used a stock 56mm TB gasket on it, and
that could have reduced the higher RPM gains considerably.
So I actually do not have a fair comparison between a 3 and a 1
but the 3 did have some nice torque gains at lower RPM's.
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Old 10-25-2003, 09:58 PM   #14
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BTW, the custom upper made at least 14 RWHP gains over the Stage 3
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Old 10-25-2003, 10:27 PM   #15
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looks like a Edelbrock 5.0 intake, I like it
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Old 10-25-2003, 11:28 PM   #16
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I showed James a picture of your intake and he siad you really hit the nail on the head with that intake. It deffinatley seems to give it a nice plenum to get a big gulp of air from.

Really nice looking.
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Old 10-26-2003, 07:19 AM   #17
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it's pretty labor intensive, in most cases I'd refer a customer to get an
SSX upper from TomY cuz he makes a fine upper that is CNC machined
for the most part and is reasonable in cost. But some runner length is good
in some cases, as in NA cars, and NOS guzzlers. Blowers/turbo can get
by with almost no runner in the upper.

Thanx for the compliments.
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Old 10-26-2003, 11:32 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme Effects.com
As far as the problem the other V6er is having I think his issues are related to over porting. Gaining HP but loosing torque is exactly what that sounds like. He got lucky to gain the HP if over porting was the case, but I am not entirly familier with his setup so i am grasping at straws.

hmm..do explain. They are the same heads Justin had on his car before he bent a valve. Mik had them taken to a machine shop to clean up from the valve, then cleaned up the head as well.

The only things that might be over ported are the upper/lower, but if anyhting they are underported.

Rob care to help?
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Old 10-26-2003, 04:53 PM   #19
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Was Mik the person who made the heads?
If so why didn't he fix the heads if nothing was wrong with the heads besides a valve?

Maybe the machine shop took liberty with them and did something else to them.

All things being equal they should work just like they did on the other persons car. Of course this is assuming they worked fine on his car.
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Old 10-26-2003, 08:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme Effects.com
Was Mik the person who made the heads?
If so why didn't he fix the heads if nothing was wrong with the heads besides a valve?

Maybe the machine shop took liberty with them and did something else to them.

All things being equal they should work just like they did on the other persons car. Of course this is assuming they worked fine on his car.
Mik is only a ported, and isnt a machine shop. He sends all his heads out to a shop for valve jobs and the such.

These heads had some damage so he had the shop machine the valve area to fix them.
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Old 10-26-2003, 08:55 PM   #21
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In that case, did the Machine shop change the valves out? I mean besides fixing it, I mean take out a valve or valves that Mik uses and possibly replace them with a different type of valve?

What I am getting at, is maybe the valve is physically the same size, but maybe is a complelty differently shaped valve. This could cause a disruption from what the work was initially meant to accomplish.

Just being honest, i don't know because I don't know what the shop did or didn't do, but if I had to guess I would say they changed something in the head to cause it to behave the way it does.

I will let RGR finish this one because he knows more about who ported them than I do and maybe he can help answer your question better with regard to what happened with them and the machine shop.

Good luck.
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Old 10-27-2003, 05:15 AM   #22
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You cannot really over-port 99^ heads if you have any idea
of what you are doing at all. I think stangin99 has other problems,
electronic or something. You need a dyno shop that knows what
they are doing... fix the basics first, then tune for the new parts.
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Old 10-27-2003, 09:56 AM   #23
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this threads really freakin informative... i like

id like to get my upper and lower ported, just no money right now
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Old 10-27-2003, 10:02 AM   #24
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Robert,

About single ports and Split ports.

Why are Single ports out flowing Split ports when fully ported.
Id like to know the tech info behind all this.
Because iam really modding my car and with the new block id really like to know if i should stay single port and get superheads, or go with a 99+ swap.
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Old 10-27-2003, 10:26 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokedya95stang
Robert,

About single ports and Split ports.

Why are Single ports out flowing Split ports when fully ported.
Id like to know the tech info behind all this.
Because iam really modding my car and with the new block id really like to know if i should stay single port and get superheads, or go with a 99+ swap.

I like BV (big valve) Single Port, it is relatively easy to
exceed SPI flow #'s with BV heads. The SPI heads are
just more refined (as in good flow unported) but when it
comes to intake flexibility the older stuff is easier. I do not
generally push SPI conversions, it is cheaper and easier
to make huge HP with BV Single Port heads. Valves are cheaper too.
My Big Valve 94-95 style heads (11/32" stem) are a bit cheaper than
96-98 (you can retro-fit w/94-95 style intakes to make it work)
and I can do BV setups on any style heads the V6 has.

I'd stay Single Port...
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Old 10-27-2003, 10:28 AM   #26
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Single port it is.
Thanks for the info.
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Old 10-27-2003, 01:48 PM   #27
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We've made 332 RWHP with a 3.8 so far, stock shortblock.
That is with mild cam and stock valve heads, 11# ATI.
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Old 11-05-2003, 09:44 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme Effects.com
It may simply be due to the right amount of research rather than trial and error based on customer input, but "cutting & welding" which I believe is a stage 3 is simply a means of making up for where improper ( or I should say not as well a job ) porting was done.
In case you didn't know... the reason behind cutting the upper is not
solely to port the runners but to shorten them and increase plenum
volume. Being able to get that last couple inches is just a byproduct,
not a reason to overcome 'improper' porting.

Edit: I didn't read all the way through and what I said above was already
touched on. And you guys (EE and RGR) are right it's not usually needed.
In most apps it's only necessary to work the upper normally.

It's nice to see, Steve, that you don't try to dance around your words.
Quote:
I also didn't mean to imply that your porting or products were done improperly (although that is what I siad).
Instead you
clarified instead of dodging like I've seen others do in the past.
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Old 11-05-2003, 09:45 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme Effects.com
And the great misnomer, is no, it is not all about gasket maching.
Word. It's about port matching.
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Old 11-05-2003, 01:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikael
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme Effects.com
And the great misnomer, is no, it is not all about gasket maching.
Word. It's about port matching.
And proper porting
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Old 02-09-2005, 02:40 PM   #31
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Back from the DEAD!!!

I had one guy saying Stage 3 intakes and the old 215/225 cam, with higher CR (10.5:1)
and a set of Mik's single port heads, he got 241 RWHP!!! I did not see the dyno
but over on 3.8 someone bought the pkg. off of him.

That is a good bit more than I ever projected it would do!
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:33 AM   #32
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lol i don't even remember when this was first posted
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