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Old 11-11-2003, 02:39 AM   #1
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Need some advice on some realistic numbers from enginebasics

O.K. what I have to work with at the moment is a 2000 auto with a CAI, a chip, some semi illegal (well totally illegal) exhaust mods, and NOS. I got the car for a song.

Engine:

I would start normally aspirated, and want the maximize HP
with that in mind.

Okay.

I've seen ridiculous claims on P&P on websites. Car is 190 stock at the crank, right? They say 40+ HP on a P&P. It's like the BS figures for a TB upgrade. Everything someone sells adds 80 HP, even the billet fuel door. Sure. I need some realistic numbers here.

What I would like to start with:

P&P intake, heads and a cam. Phenolics and a larger TB.
and I'll be doing the regular underdrive and thermostat, auto upgrade,
stall etc. As an experiment I'll be dropping in 4.56's. I can always have them pulled.

What would be the best combo of the above and what can I expect?
What can I expect with that and a chip? And is a tune necessary?

Am I not thinking of something important? Maybe radiator, fans, etc?
I don't want to go crazy here, but basic small stuff like a larger oil pan and trans cooler, are they just extreme mods for a tiny return?
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Old 11-11-2003, 09:08 AM   #2
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a fully ported package and a cam is good for about 50-60rwhp easily - (10-15 from intakes, 20-30 from cam, and 20-30 from heads). those are not exaggerated claims as long as theyre done professionally.

thermostat wont get you anything but maybe 1/2 crank hp. the stall is a great idea.

4.56s is too much gear for a V6. if you wanted to be strictly a drag car, get an 8.8 with 4.30s, but we do not have a high enough redline to accomadate 4.56s. 4.10s are ideal. with the new ported combo and cam, get soem new roller rockers, valve springs and pushrods (if you dont get adjustable RRs). then you can extend your redline to about 5500 easily.


as for the tune. GET ONE!!. anytime you mess with big parts of your engine, especially ones that deal with the air or fuel ratios, its best to get one. if you run to lean, you go ka-boom. if you run to rich, you dog it and you dont see any hp.

get a dyno-tune after its all done to optimize and maximize your hp. (that will require the chip to be reburned)
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Old 11-11-2003, 10:21 AM   #3
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I can't vouch for the p/p stuff because I haven't had any p/p done to my car, but I can back the rest of what he was saying. 4.56's would probably be good for an 1/8th mi racer only... you'd hit 2,500rpms @ 62-64mph in 5th gear. you couldn't ever go on a highway.
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Old 11-11-2003, 01:38 PM   #4
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Re: Need some advice on some realistic numbers from engineba

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSEMbler
...I would start normally aspirated, and want the maximize HP
with that in mind.
Okay.
I've seen ridiculous claims on P&P on websites. Car is 190 stock at the crank, right? They say 40+ HP on a P&P. It's like the BS figures for a TB upgrade. Everything someone sells adds 80 HP, even the billet fuel door. Sure. I need some realistic numbers here...
Well, I have no good data on what ported/cammed 3.8's do with
my camming strategies, but I do have hard data on cams, and
the Monkey Man is correct, we are getting great HP from a cam only.
Boltons and cam + tune is getting 210-214 RWHP in a 5 speed.
The dyno tuning is not done, the 214 guy has an old superchips tune
for his pre-cam swap setup, more in there for sure! The 210 RWHP guy
has a complete tune, but the goofy dyno-op stopped the pull @ 5200
RPM, he was still building HP, and was ahead of the fully-ported-cammed
guys by up to 10 RWHPat 5200!
The competition is only getting just under 220 RWHP with C/I/H packages,
and boltons. We are right there with a cam swap and tune.

I send out a cam form and have the customer fill it out, then I pick a cam
for the specific combo.

As for 80 RWHP, I've verified that type of gain with single ports,
a 99^ might not get that due to the intake design. It limits upper
RPM capability, but I am working on an improved ported stock upper.
I also do custom uppers, working on one now.
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:29 AM   #5
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210 hp doesn't seem so good on a several thousand dollar investment.
It shows how much ford has lost when a stock Japanese v6 can get
almost 300.

O.K. Say my goal is 300-320 HP.
what would I need to do?
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Old 11-13-2003, 02:38 AM   #6
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I'm no expert, far from it, but, if you're spending several thousand dollars, why not supercharge it? some advertise 165 hp at the wheel, and umm, u can put one of those aftercoolers can't you? the one i was looking at said it added 35-45, and you have the CAI (umm... ok so i'm seriously under informed, but, i'm assuming that the whole aftercooler and cold air intake things are separate) but if "10-15 from intakes, 20-30 from cam, and 20-30 from heads" plus the aftercooler and supercharger. You'd have an extra 265 hp or so from that... by the way, if anyone reads this and it's seriously flawed just delete it.

and if anything, could you reply with the rgiht information as i'd like to know how to get some more hp and have a reliable source of information tell me, cuz i too get stuck on these advertised hps... thanks
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Old 11-13-2003, 06:28 AM   #7
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Hey dude here is the flaw. most advertised HP gains are for the most part bogus. 10 or 15 from a CAI on a V6 is not happening. Your cam and head gains are on target though. One of the things people need to remember is that adding up bolt on HP numbers to get a total increase in hp DOES NOT ADD UP !!!!! I have wittnessed first hand cars with CAI, Pullies, P&P throttle bodies, P&P intakes and a chip get no more than 15- 20 HP gain. Hell with a stock motor Erick( Eval) barely got 200 Hp out of a vortech before he decided to get a cam and heads from Mikael @ RPM.

There are to many variables when doing mods such as the condition of the engine when doing the mod as well as getting a good tune when you have completed
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:06 PM   #8
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I got an updated from super six

They have their custom SSX sheetmetal manifold coming out for the split port soon. I think I'll wait for that, some nice gains and near the price of some people with "ultimate p&p cut/weld manifolds".
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:19 PM   #9
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But that custom SSX manifold is really designed for Supercharger or Turbocharger applications and 300 bhp as advertised stock is around 270 RWHP with a 5 or 6 speed and less than that for a automatic. I hope you are considering SC, Turbo or Nitrous to get 300-320 hp out of a 3.8
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:27 PM   #10
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Oh yeah

Oh yeah, I fully plan to get the car a turbo. I plan to keep this car and get a 95 GT for my V8 dreams, but that's down the road a while. If I can get quality parts, I won't be like most people ripping things out after they put them in a short time ago.

Basically the SSX sheetmetal is about $600.
RGR wants $700 for p&p stage 3, and I have to send back the core.
Plus SSX is already rigged for a TB upgrade.

Basically SC or turbo is really essential on the v6 to get good power.
I decided on turbo a long time ago for the shallow reason that it sounds cooler.
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:30 PM   #11
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You never had a look at RGR Monster stage X have you
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:30 PM   #12
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Have a link?
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:44 PM   #13
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I have been searching and cannot find one. What we need is Robert to post a pick

He use to have a pic of his monster in his sig a year or so ago
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:45 PM   #14
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I assume it's a custom fab ?
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:52 PM   #15
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Yes itis Whenever Robert gets in here he can show you
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Old 11-13-2003, 01:44 PM   #16
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Here is a pick of the Monster Intake on Jose's car

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Old 11-13-2003, 07:56 PM   #17
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numbers?
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Old 11-14-2003, 11:05 AM   #18
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It makes 332 RWHP with that setup
215/225 cam, Full NA ported heads, stock valves,
he has a full 2.5" exhaust system, Welded lower intakes,
The PA is an ATI 11# kit and next Jose is gonna install
the 30 over 4.2 shortblock I sent him, forged rods and
pistons, blueprinted and balanced, then we are looking at
BV heads and maybe a bigger cam. He definitely has the
hardware to make the next HP record (he now has the
record for emissions legal HP!)

thanx for the pic corey, I have others.
The only really good thing about the
custom is that I can match plenum
volume to your engine, but the SSX is a very good piece.

In some cases I tell ppl. to buy it!
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Old 11-14-2003, 11:11 AM   #19
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Man that pic was not easy to find I finally had to go to another board and find a post that had a website Jose's uses with his friends
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Old 11-14-2003, 11:32 AM   #20
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A couple more
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Old 11-14-2003, 12:38 PM   #21
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that looks like part of a stock head and a fab box. Why you do it like that, and how'd you adjust the tb cable?
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Old 11-14-2003, 12:44 PM   #22
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I wanted some runner length,
it makes good torque (only tested SC tho)
The TB cable works fine, Jose made the adjustment.
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Old 11-14-2003, 12:53 PM   #23
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think it would work good on a NA and price with the phenolic for it?

I was thinking of driving the 12 hours to Indiana if you can do the work for me over a day or two.
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Old 11-14-2003, 01:06 PM   #24
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It should be good NA cuz of the runners and the plenum is
sized for NA too. I'd go bigger for an SC setup next time.

I could do it easily but I'd make the upper first.
I can do installs here!
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Old 11-14-2003, 01:07 PM   #25
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I'll scrounge around for an upper for you to use. this is for split port btw.
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Old 11-14-2003, 02:44 PM   #26
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OH that changes the project some then damn split ports
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