M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction - Mustang Evolution

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Old 07-31-2008, 01:07 PM   #1
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M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

(I hope I'm not stepping on toes with this thread.)

I just wanted to get some facts out there about the use of the Eaton M112 on the split port V6 motors.

History:
The M112 off the 03/04 Cobras is a pretty straight forward install on the V6. Back in like 02/03 I was working on making a custom lower intake that would use a water to air IC and mount the M90 on top of it. I wanted a roots set up for my car since it lacked in low/mid range power. I could care less about making power at 4500 rpm or more. When the company I was working with pretty much just walked out on me (and my money), I decided to make something using the M112. I wanted it to meet several goals. 1 - It needed to maintain all the pollution controls (I lived in Texas at the time). 2- I didn't want to use a custom fuel rail, so it had to work with the stock one. 3- I wanted the install to be so easy any novice could do it in a day or two. (Especially with 90% of the V6 owenrs being new to Mustangs.) 4- It had to be cheap.

I came up with the boxed upper idea, had it made and tested it out on my car. I went that route b/c it didn't need a custom fuel rail, didn't mess with the EGR, and didn't need custom plumbing of the coolant line in the lower. Obvisouly, it made it very tall. After having it on about 5 cars and running well, I got with Super Six to mass produce the upper. They are doing so, but it's a taller version. Also, they didn't want to mess with a kit. Nathan (MySteed) and I got together with it, and I'm making the boxed uppers, sending them to him, and he is selling a full kit for it. All you supply are the boost gauge and dyno tune. It will work on any similar spilt port V6 (Windstar 3.8L, F150 4.2L etc...) And yes, there is one installed on a Windstar already. It's a SC'd handicap set up vehicle.

Facts:
Biggest thing to point out is that it will not fit under a stock hood. There have been many issues with this idea. Mine is under a 2 1/2" Y2K Cobra R cowl. The Super Six Motorsports version doesn't fit under a 3" cowl. There are things like cowl design and company that play a role in it. Also, condition of the car itself, if you have worn out motor mounts, a shift in the K member or anything like that, it could impact how it fits. I know mine is close enough to the hood that when I lean on it, I can flex the hood enough to hit the blower pulley.
The M112 is very large when compared to the size displacement of the V6 motor. It will be more than enough supercharger for 99% of the V6 guys out there. However, with that in mind, any Cobra blower upgrade (KB, Whipple etc...) will work with this set up if you are aiming for more than 600 hp.
Intercooling comes up alot. Neither myself or Nathan are running intercooled set ups. Neither of us have seen major heat soak issues like so many people warn about. Both of us have seen a lot of street use, and never had issues with idling temps in traffic or anything of that nature.

Power:
On a stock bottom end - we suggest staying under 350 hp for starters. There have been cars as high as 450 rwhp with stock bottom ends, but why push luck? The best pulley combo we've seen to start with is the stock blower pulley and use of a 42% Underdrive crank pulley. That will give a stock motor about 300 rwhp. Most of the people installing it are starting with lower boost levels, getting a feel for it, then swapping around pullies to make more power. As far as we know, the only built bottom end this set up is being used on it mine. Others are still using stock bottom ends.

Gains on a stock motor set up range up to roughly 16 rwhp per psi of boost from a stock blower. Modified split port Mustangs can see mid 20 rwhp per psi of boost. As long as the motor is openned up enough to move the air, and you have a large enough fuel system to supply the gas, you can make more than enough power for the street.

With a built low compression motor, fully ported blower, 2.76" blower pulley, 10% over drive crank pulley(custom made) I was set to push close to 20 psi into my motor. As posted in the other thread, I was seeing 24 rwhp per psi in the lower RPM range, which dropped off to 22 rwhp per psi in the upper RPM range. My N/A 4.2L dyno'd at 247/256 at the wheels prior to blower install.
Using 18 psi as a rough peak boost number and using the lower 22 rwhp per psi to be safe - that puts my car at roughly in the neighborhood of 640ish when it stretched the ARP head studs on the drivers side. Even using the lower gain numbers, it's still upper 500s. Granted there will be nay sayers - and I'm fine with that. I'm not out trying to set records or anything. I just like playing with my car to see what new stuff I can come up with.

That motor will soon be going into another car, a better "blower friendly" cam, tuned again and back to see what it will do. The plan is a Whipple upgrade soon there after.... pending the sale of the Roush.
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:21 PM   #2
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilRoush View Post
With a built low compression motor, fully ported blower, 2.76" blower pulley, 10% over drive crank pulley(custom made) I was set to push close to 20 psi into my motor. As posted in the other thread, I was seeing 24 rwhp per psi in the lower RPM range, which dropped off to 22 rwhp per psi in the upper RPM range. My N/A 4.2L dyno'd at 247/256 at the wheels prior to blower install.
Using 18 psi as a rough peak boost number and using the lower 22 rwhp per psi to be safe - that puts my car at roughly in the neighborhood of 640ish when it stretched the ARP head studs on the drivers side. Even using the lower gain numbers, it's still upper 500s. Granted there will be nay sayers - and I'm fine with that. I'm not out trying to set records or anything. I just like playing with my car to see what new stuff I can come up with.

But was this information verified on a dyno or is this purely a "Based on a number I came up with of 22 hp per PSI then that puts my car at roughly in the neighborhood of 640ish"?

It sounds like a lot of that is guestimation and not eally factual. it is also hard to say that you get X amount of gain over an entire RPM range, specially with an eaton. The faster the eaton spins, and the more PSI it creates, the more power it consumes trying to spin the rotors.

I am perfectly willing to accept any claims that can be verified with real data and not data presented in the "Using 18 psi as a rough peak boost number and using the lower 22 rwhp per psi to be safe - that puts my car at roughly in the neighborhood of 640ish " manner.

Also, are these HP claims at the wheels or at the crank?
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:41 PM   #3
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

its decent info, how can it make more than 600 hp if its stretching arp head bolts already??? im curious to hear this solution
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:51 PM   #4
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyOrangeTPS View Post
its decent info, how can it make more than 600 hp if its stretching arp head bolts already??? im curious to hear this solution
Because it was stretching the bolts at roughly 640 hp according to the text.
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:01 PM   #5
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

exactly, so how are they making v6s with more power than that, either it didnt stretch the bolts or they are using special bolts.im guessing it just blew the head gaskets because arp studs are good for like 40psi possibly more.
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:06 PM   #6
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

id be interested in a price for a bolt on kit like this. I would have asked in my thread but its been locked
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:11 PM   #7
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpion1 View Post
id be interested in a price for a bolt on kit like this. I would have asked in my thread but its been locked
Super Six Motorsports They have the adapter...then the rest is up to you.
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:18 PM   #8
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

The kit is $2800.

A few guys have had the head stud issues, but it seems to be pretty random. There are a few running more power, but there are too many variables involved with those vehicles other than psi alone.

The stud issue may end up requiring some machine work to the block and heads in order to run something slightly larger, or ARP or someone else will have to step to something stronger in order to achieve 20+ psi without stretching. Another issue that has come up a few times is head gaskets. Amazingly there is a pretty good selection for our application, but a few other instances have added a few more questions. Some things can be as simple as installer error or just a bad part.
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:45 PM   #9
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

i know my arp studs and cometic gaskets can hold 30psi with no problem., and could probably hold more if detonation was prevented.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:15 PM   #10
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

good info, just sucks it wont fit under the stock hood and its not intercooled, those two things kills the idea for me. I understand that there is very little room to work with, the reason an intercooler works on 03/04 cobras is the huge area between the heads that allows one to fit in there. You would have to rip out the lower intake to get an intercooler to work.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:18 PM   #11
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

they have a local shop here that can shorten radiators for streetrods, i wonder if they can cut down a terminator intercooler??? then just use everything from a terminator for cooling. that just popped into my head
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:55 PM   #12
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

seriously, we just closed a thread because people keep saying the same **** over and over, and you can't verify **** with a dynosheet. not only that, it seems like anytime someone proves you wrong or proves someone of that crowd wrong, the only thing they can do is insult the person who proved you wrong. i dunno, i think it's just a continuation to a closed thread.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:59 PM   #13
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

Those running more power than that ARE having problems with the studs. The cam is starting to walk similar to a DSM and noone has a solution for now. I think the longer we see cars at this level the more a company will want to step up and provide an aftermarket bullet proof setup for these engines, for now they're just on borrowed time.
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Old 08-01-2008, 05:57 PM   #14
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

Yeah, my car wasn't the only V6 to see stud stretching. Many gave way at 570-600 ish. An traditional IC won't work. Even if you trim down the lower intake and slide something under there, it won't be tall enough to cool the incoming air temp. Look at the number of Terminator/Saleen/Roush guys upgrading the heat exchanger to larger than stock. And you can't get too low to do the V6 being a pushrod motor (you'd hit the cam if you went low enough to make a real difference). When it's needed, the best long term cooling is going to be meth injection. I was running N20 to cool my intake charge for a bit, but got away from it.

My car spent many hours on the dyno working up to this kit. It was making more and more power each time - so I'm very confident in the math... but like you said, it's just math. And anyone who doesn't want to believe it will always find a reason not to. (Nobody wanted to believe a stock looking N/A V6 was putting down 247 to the wheels either). Once the motor goes into the next car, I'll have more time to work with tuning on the dyno. But still, they are making SC'd V8 power amounts at various psi ranges if you are using the 4.2L with a good set of heads and a blower oriented cam.
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:06 PM   #15
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

Still waiting for proof. I have no issue believing you once i see a legit dyno sheet. Dont get me wrong ive heard alot about them. But as stated before no one can prove it.
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:11 PM   #16
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilRoush View Post
I was running N20 to cool my intake charge for a bit, but got away from it.
No wonder you saw 600....
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:37 PM   #17
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

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No wonder you saw 600....
thats what i was thinking, nitrous doesent just cool the air, thats why the stock eaton can make the power on a v6...argument over
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:49 PM   #18
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

I wasn't using at the time. I had 75, 100 and 125 (wet) shots in case I needed it on the next afternoon for more testing and tuning.
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:46 PM   #19
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

i still have the question of how are yall exceeding 600 hp when there isnt a headbolt to hold it?
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:54 PM   #20
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

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Originally Posted by SimplyOrangeTPS View Post
i still have the question of how are yall exceeding 600 hp when there isnt a headbolt to hold it?
Myth...I mean Math...
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:57 AM   #21
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

Mine let go right at the top end. Not all of the ARP users have had them fail. I used he same ones Matt, Gary and J and most other 500+ V6ers use.
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Old 08-03-2008, 10:55 AM   #22
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

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Originally Posted by LilRoush View Post
Mine let go right at the top end. Not all of the ARP users have had them fail. I used he same ones Matt, Gary and J and most other 500+ V6ers use.

my question is, if the baddest bolt on the market stretches, how are they exceeding 600hp? im not being a smartass or anything, i just wanna know the technical side of it, but they are doing something to hold the head down.
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Old 08-03-2008, 11:38 AM   #23
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

All I wanna know is who cares? How long are you guys gonna go back and forth on this?

I've seen 2.3L 4 cylinders make 900+ HP. I've seen 255 ci V8s make barely over a 100. Regardless of how much power you are squeezing out of a V6, it's still nothing revolutionary. If you start making 1000+ HP, then maybe you have something to "prove".

On the other hand, why some of you guys find it so hard to believe is pretty amazing. It's a friggin' 4.2L for christ sakes. That's .4L less displacement than your beloved Terminators. It's not that different. Not to mention the fact that it's a pushrod motor.... I think we all know which is more efficient when it comes to making power.

So can we just drop this?
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Old 08-03-2008, 11:48 AM   #24
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

No. And it still isn't about making power in a 6...is the fact of makng more power in the 6 with the same blower that a cobra can not make the power with. Has nothing to do with just plain power...it is how a 6 can do it with less cubes, more heat, and the same amount of air as a cobra.
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Old 08-03-2008, 11:52 AM   #25
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

When rob said myth / math... its true. the math may look right on paper, but it won't work that way. the fact of the matter is, everytime ya'll mention a vehicle that does this or this, its either turboed, or it may have the eaton BUT something else is done... regardless engine build ups or nos.

i believe the original statement was, stock v6 with eaton can make 600 compared to a stock cobra with eaton.

thisisabsolutelyrediculousughhh
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:13 PM   #26
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

When did anyone say a stock V6 can make the 600 hp levels? That didn't come from me. No way a stock 3.8L V6 will make the same amount as the stock 4V Cobra with the same blower.

SimplyOrange... we think it had to due with a certain run of APR hardware, not the product as a whole. That was about two years ago, and nobody has seen that issue with the newer stuff. I think alot of it also had to do with compression ratios of the motors trying to force that much air into them at once. Nitrous cars saw the issue more than blower cars. We think it was due to the 'instant' hit they were seeing. We also think that due to the nature of positive displacement blowers, that is why we saw it with mine - yet centri and turbo guys aren't seeing it.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:15 PM   #27
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

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Originally Posted by PureVenom View Post
No. And it still isn't about making power in a 6...is the fact of makng more power in the 6 with the same blower that a cobra can not make the power with. Has nothing to do with just plain power...it is how a 6 can do it with less cubes, more heat, and the same amount of air as a cobra.
Different engines make different power. There are WAAAAY too many variables you are leaving out of the mix. There is more to making power than displacement. To say it is impossible is childish.

Besides, the dyno numbers are irrelevant anyway. Take a V6 with an Eaton and a stock Cobra with an Eaton to the track and I can guarandamntee you who will make it to the end of the 1320 first (assuming equal drivers).
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Old 08-03-2008, 08:37 PM   #28
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

i kinda figured it could have just been the run of bolts, arp studs rarely stretch, i doubt its the compression,it would detonate beforew itll stretch the studs...

there are different variables to making power on different engines, the problem is they all work in favor of the cobra....and if i remember right, it was a stock v6 with eaton VS a stock cobra with eaton...i doubt the v6 would be ahead if this is the case.
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Old 08-03-2008, 08:46 PM   #29
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

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Originally Posted by SimplyOrangeTPS View Post
i kinda figured it could have just been the run of bolts, arp studs rarely stretch, i doubt its the compression,it would detonate beforew itll stretch the studs...

there are different variables to making power on different engines, the problem is they all work in favor of the cobra....and if i remember right, it was a stock v6 with eaton VS a stock cobra with eaton...i doubt the v6 would be ahead if this is the case.
With a 500+ lb difference in weight between the two cars, I believe you would be wrong sir. I didn't realize we were talking about a stock V6 though.

As far as the power is concerned, what other factors do you think are working in favor of the Cobra?
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Old 08-03-2008, 08:58 PM   #30
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

fisrt of all, a stock v6 is only 3.8 liter so forget about the .4 liters you speak of, next look at factory power numbers, the cobra has 100hp more than a v6 n/a so throw a blower on both of them and the v6 has some catching up to do before it can even be at the same power as a cobra...im not sure where you get the 500lb from i know the eaton weighs alot but you will be adding the same weight to the v6 less the intercooler and heat exchanger, and the cobra block isnt 500lb heavier than a v6,if you are getting the numbers off of the internet, try weighing a 2001 cobra as it will be a better guide...and at the end of the day, the cobra is intercooled and the v6 is not...im just saying its not feasable,

im not willing to argue over it until i die, i have a stock eaton on the shelf and dyno sheets and time slips from a stock cobra, its a matter of time before i find a good car to put the eaton on and settle this theory once and forall, if it is true then i willl convince benjy to take the ported blower off of the shop cobra, and sell it so we can just play with a v6, hell better gas mileage and lower insurance sounds like good buisness incentive to me... im waiting on ryan to gewt his done as i would like to do some more research on it and do some comparisons if he is willing.
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:04 PM   #31
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

Stock V6s max out at 450 hp (right now) if you apply enough boost ..... they need to have the heads openned up to really make any good power. And yes, that amount would be far more than stock boost levels for the Terminator.
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:08 PM   #32
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

my stock 01 v6 manual was 3150lbs my 03 cobra is 3780 (coupe is 120lbs lighter) so... the difference is 510 lbs~ or there about.

The v6 has higher compression so it will make more hp per lb of boost and show more gain vs a stock cobra with/without the blower (03 cobra) that has a much lower compression. I think its 9.3 for the v6 stock and the cobra is 8.5

The cobra has more traction issues stock than the v6 does.... the irs is what keeps stock cobras out of the low 12s off the show room floor (that with its weight) not that the stock 7.5 inch rear will hold up for much but for a few passes at least.

The 3.8 above was stroked to a 4.2 (like in the F-150) and you can get 350rwhp out of the 3.8/4.2 with out much to much trouble. You can build an N/A nearly 300rwhp 4.2l engine (keep in mind no aftermarket heads/intakes... all ported stock parts)

and said above different cars different things... some people just dont realize how much weight plays a factor... take a stock GT500 and a stock c6 z06... see who wins (but just because they both make nearly the same power levels peak... that does not tell you which engine alone performs better overall)

one issue I have with this thread is... you can not just assume you make xx hp per psi... cant do that. Hell even dynos are not 100% accurate your math sure wont be. You can get close on the dyno but at the end of the day... the track times are what really matters.
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:11 PM   #33
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

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Originally Posted by SimplyOrangeTPS View Post
fisrt of all, a stock v6 is only 3.8 liter so forget about the .4 liters you speak of, next look at factory power numbers, the cobra has 100hp more than a v6 n/a so throw a blower on both of them and the v6 has some catching up to do before it can even be at the same power as a cobra...im not sure where you get the 500lb from i know the eaton weighs alot but you will be adding the same weight to the v6 less the intercooler and heat exchanger, and the cobra block isnt 500lb heavier than a v6,if you are getting the numbers off of the internet, try weighing a 2001 cobra as it will be a better guide...and at the end of the day, the cobra is intercooled and the v6 is not...im just saying its not feasable,

im not willing to argue over it until i die, i have a stock eaton on the shelf and dyno sheets and time slips from a stock cobra, its a matter of time before i find a good car to put the eaton on and settle this theory once and forall, if it is true then i willl convince benjy to take the ported blower off of the shop cobra, and sell it so we can just play with a v6, hell better gas mileage and lower insurance sounds like good buisness incentive to me... im waiting on ryan to gewt his done as i would like to do some more research on it and do some comparisons if he is willing.
First of all, I am not talking about a stock V6. I am talking about the V6 that is mentioned at the beginning of this thread, which is a 4.2L and quite far from stock.

Second, I thought we were talking about comparison to stock Cobras with the Eaton blower. Last I checked, that meant 2003 and 2004. If you think that a Cobra engine does not weigh much more than the V6 engine, both without blowers, then you are sadly mistaken. Do you have any idea what the difference between a modular and pushrod motor even are?

Besides the engine, you also have the 6 speed transmission, IRS, etc. etc. etc. that makes the Cobra heavier. Look up the curb weight of a 94-04 V6 and compare them to the 03-04 Cobra.

Finally... It doesn't matter which one makes more power. Because neither one will ever be as cool as 5.0L Fox anyway.
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:32 PM   #34
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

ok guys, my point is how much of that weight is the blower and intercooler?? the cobra has that already calculated in the curb weight, we are talking about a stock cobra, i said weigh an 01 to see what it weighs without a blower on it then calculat a little in to compensate for the aluminum block. v6s cant touch my car when im not on spray, and it is extremely untuned right now and running off of a gt computer.it is pretty much a stock o4 cobra with exhaust. my point is they spend alot of the power made by the eaton to just catch up to the an N/A cobra.and a 4.3 isnt considered stock, i know a guy with a 5.0 stroker cobra motor with cams, and portwork on stock parts making 530rwhp natrally aspirated.he is in fact the persowho cuts custom blower cams in our area.
like i said, im hoping ryan will work with me to do some testing to see some true results coming off of the same dyno so there is no percent error.

btw, my stock 2v mod motar destroyed several bolt-on 5.0s when i first got it, just sucks that its so innefficient
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:57 PM   #35
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Re: M112 V6: Fact vs Fiction

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Originally Posted by SimplyOrangeTPS View Post
ok guys, my point is how much of that weight is the blower and intercooler?? the cobra has that already calculated in the curb weight, we are talking about a stock cobra, i said weigh an 01 to see what it weighs without a blower on it then calculat a little in to compensate for the aluminum block. v6s cant touch my car when im not on spray, and it is extremely untuned right now and running off of a gt computer.it is pretty much a stock o4 cobra with exhaust. my point is they spend alot of the power made by the eaton to just catch up to the an N/A cobra.and a 4.3 isnt considered stock, i know a guy with a 5.0 stroker cobra motor with cams, and portwork on stock parts making 530rwhp natrally aspirated.he is in fact the persowho cuts custom blower cams in our area.
like i said, im hoping ryan will work with me to do some testing to see some true results coming off of the same dyno so there is no percent error.

btw, my stock 2v mod motar destroyed several bolt-on 5.0s when i first got it, just sucks that its so innefficient
You know if we're gonna sit here and talk about what peoples aunts, cousins, moms, and dads have...

I'm gonna need to see a dyno sheet
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