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Old 07-13-2005, 12:17 AM   #1
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Need engine build(er) advice.

Ok, long post with my thoughts and what I am looking to get. The end has the specific questions. Remove words like turbo charger and N2O from your vocabulary if you reply. Oh, here goes.

Ok, here is the deal. Once the truck sells, I am going to be pursuing a Fox to build up. I am torn between two options. Go with a poked and strocked 302 somewhere in the range of 347 or 393 with a super charger, or go with displacement and get a 460 ci super cobra jet...and maybe pop a S/C on it.

Here is the intended goal. This car would be a show car for the most part but would also pull driving duties on good days. I would like to get somewhere in the range of 500+ rwhp to go with the current cobra numbers. I am concerned about passing emissions as they do that here.

My dilema is that I am sure something like the 460 isn't going to fair well with emissions. I am thinking that a 347ish would probably be the best bet for that requirement. As such, I would want to add a super charger. Yes, I said super charger. Please, don't suggest turbos. I don't like them. I know they are better, I don't care. I don't like them. Also, please do not suggest running N2O. I want the same power when I leave the track as I do when I run down the track with no bottle worries. /rant

Anyhow, I thought about putting a kenne bell on top, but, I am thinking of maybe a Paxton style S/C instead. I want to get that sound instead of the KB sound, as sweet as it is. I would rather get a self contained unit which is why I am thinking the Paxton Novi 2000 instead of a Vortech. I like the idea of a self contained unit over running lines to the pan and such. I would also be looking to run probably 12-15 psi.

So, to sum up:

- I am looking for 500+ rwhp build up of a Fox.
- Do I go with displacement and maybe add a S/C on top for giggles, or go with a small block and add the S/C.
- If I go with a S/C application, would the Paxton Novi 2000 be a good choice to get that S/C whistle as well as performance?
- What kind of specs should I be thinking of for the engine itself? Things like compression ratio, cam specs or company suggestions, pistons, rods, etc.
- Does anyone have any suggestions as far as an engine builder? While I would like to build it myself, the idea of a complete crate engine sounds much better for this build to make sure everything is correct. I will build the next one.

I know a number of these can be asked by calling a builder, but, I would need to know who to call. I know of Livernois, Coast High Performance, and World Castings...but I don't know much of their reputations.

I think that about covers everything. Any suggestions anyone?
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Old 07-13-2005, 12:59 AM   #2
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If youre wanting a lot of boost, go with a lower compression ratio like a 7.5-8:1. Also, a trickflow package will see lots of N/A gains so you might want to look at that. Get a custom ground cam to go with your setup, especially if youre looking for boost. Forged internals are a must, then id say the paxton would be good, and most other cent. blowers such as the procharger, vortec, etc.
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Old 07-13-2005, 08:33 PM   #3
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I'm not sure how much you read MM&FF or 5.0 Mustang magazines, but they spend most of their time doing 302 head flow analysis data. SO you're definately going to want a very well set of heads and intakes. Also, you're camshaft is definately what makes or breaks you at the emissions along with your tune. I personally always liked the 351W since it's pretty much compatible with the 302 parts. This way you have a fairly big engine to start from and you'll produce monsterous torque from the get-go. My first suggestion would be to build a extremely efficient N/A engine. The 351 back in the day did not creat the hp potential it has these days. One of the biggest factors now are units like MSD which will creat a better spark, increasing your hp and also helping with emissions since you'll have a better burning mixture. I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think you can take the heads, intakes, EGR, EEC and all that from a 94-95 5.0 to use on your project car. Having the EGR will also help with emissions as well. Where to start is a good question though. I always say start from the inside out or the bottom up, so bsically start with some forged internals and a good cam, everything else will fall in place if you work at it.
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Old 07-14-2005, 08:30 PM   #4
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IMO go with a medium stroker (331 or 347) and turbo it.

the amount of power you make would be more than enough for your goals, and you would only need to do simple stuff to make butt loads of power.

forged bottom end w/ 8.5:1 pistons.
AFR heads
some kind of port-matched intake to the AFR's
ed curtis cam
necessary fuel parts
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Old 07-14-2005, 09:15 PM   #5
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I don't think you read the above post.....
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Old 07-14-2005, 11:40 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97Stallion
I don't think you read the above post.....
whoops..missed the line about no turbos

Then yes, the Paxton Novi is a very nice blower. Just make sure you get a quality intercooler like the Paxton one (the ATI ones are supposidly not all that high flowing)
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Old 07-16-2005, 02:59 PM   #7
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For 500+rwhp a solid block is you first step i.e dart. Since smog is a problem a 347 with the stock cam (yes I said stock) is smog friendly and with a vortex pushing 12-15 will make well over 500rwhp all day long. If you have the funds any custom cam grider can make you a smog friendly cam and make more hp/tq, but since this isn't a track car you can do without. Heads I would go with TW track heat heads ported they are smog friendly and have plenty of meat so you can port them pretty easy. AFR's don't offer as much meat and I think the 205's aren't smog friendly [ I think] and 185's are too small for a 347 imo. IMO for a street car that won't see much track use if any at all a KB would be a blast to drive than a vortex/paxton seeing as how the KB makes a crap load of lower end tq which is were you RPM's are going to spend more time compared to other that rely on higher rpm's. CHP would be a great place to deal with but if yopu can find a local builder that would be ideal.
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Old 07-16-2005, 03:02 PM   #8
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Also stangnet's Rick 91gt is an engine builder and I know a few that have had him do work and they are very happy with the finished product here's his web page http://www.rnhperformance.net/default.html
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Old 07-17-2005, 12:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZimStang
If youre wanting a lot of boost, go with a lower compression ratio like a 7.5-8:1.
7.5 is too low, 8-9 is ideal, 9.5 works well with lower boost, but you can build high compression engines, as long as you have alcohol injection and/or a really nice intercooler

personally, id use a 351 based engine, 500hp on a stock 5.0 block is pushing it, yeah itll last, but for how long is the question, a 351 based engine is able to handle more power, and if you stick with stock displacement, youre already a few CI ahead of a 347 stroker, stick a nice, bumpy cam in, some aluminum heads, and forced induction of your choice, and you can easily push 600rwhp without too many worrys

id make a suggestion on the blower, but blowers arnt my forte, i stick with turbos, so im no help there
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Old 07-17-2005, 07:37 AM   #10
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I dont know much about the 5.0, but I would say this. If you are building this as a show car, then all people are going to see is the engine block (and blower if possible). Why do you need a stroked engine? No one would be able to tell it's stroked just by looking at it. You could stick with the 302 and go all forged bottom end and save some money for polishing the block or something.

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Old 07-17-2005, 11:37 AM   #11
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If you want an easy 500hp 5.0 then just put heads/cam/intake and a paxton on it, stock bottom end.

With a good tune you can easily make 500rwhp on a stock 5.0 of any year. Lots of guys are making 500+ and shooting for 600 on stock shortblocks, it's all in the tune.

The blocks will go before the pistons will, so if you only want 500 and make it a show car, then boost it with h/c/i and then dress it up and be done.

edit: Depending on how big of shows you plan to take this too you will have to do a LOT to make it stand out from the other modified 5.0's. When I was at Carlisle this/last year there were about 7-10 blown 302's completely done up under the hood...yet there was only 1 turbo car there and it was a fox(he won his class).

To win a show you need to look good, but to win a BIG show you need to be unique as well...which a turbo would provide
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Old 07-17-2005, 06:42 PM   #12
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tune is a big part of it, but there are still limits to how much it can handle, and not every block will handle the same power as the next, 351 gives a larger buffer zone
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Old 07-17-2005, 08:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird232ci
tune is a big part of it, but there are still limits to how much it can handle, and not every block will handle the same power as the next, 351 gives a larger buffer zone
I completely agree, I always thought the 351 was the perfect build-up engine.
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Old 07-17-2005, 10:56 PM   #14
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The 351W is not a strong engine, I grew up with 289s, 302s and 351s, Windors and Cleveland, the Cleveland 351 is a much better and stronger engine than that Windsor, and the 289s and 302s are stronger engines than the 351Ws, much build up and all on one of those engines and you are building a time bomb.
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Old 07-17-2005, 11:01 PM   #15
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no disrespect Rick But when you were growing up, tuning was done with a carb and not with a computer. You may still be right, but I think if you could tune a 351 with maybe an EEC-IV or EEC-V computer if possible, you might be able to get it more stable. Tuning at the carb isn;t bad, it's just isn't very scienctific. Basicly you move your whole A/F ratio curve up or down with a carb, with a computer you can atleast isolate a certain RPM range and tune that area specificly.
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:26 AM   #16
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Remember this about a 351 W, it is the same basic block as the 260, 289, 302, bore, stroke and heads are different. To make more displacemennt they decreased the thickness of the block and cylinder walls, this is the reason that engine is less strong, has no relation to the tune.
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick0636
Remember this about a 351 W, it is the same basic block as the 260, 289, 302, bore, stroke and heads are different.
Are you saying the bore is different on a 351 to a 302? I always thought they were the same 4.002" The 302 has a 3" stroke and the 351 has a 3.5" stroke? The main reason you couldn't stroke a 302 to a 351 was because of the added deck height the 351W block had and therefore if you used a 351 crank, heads and rods your stroke would become too long and you would consistantly slap your piston into your heads. I would like to see where the heads are different for the 351W from the 302. The 351 is part of the 90 family and so is the 302. Maybe you know something I don't know.
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:48 AM   #18
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Rick is right Windsors were family car and van engines. The Cleveland is a much better block for building high horsepower.
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:11 AM   #19
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Sarge, apparently you know somethings I don't about the old Windor 351, I do remember this, the 351 was the standard engine on the Mach I and used in lots of other Stangs, but, if you couldn't tell the difference or have someone who could look at it, then you really didn't know which you had, about 1/2 were Cleveland, the other half were Windsor. Also the Cleveland 351 had 2 different sets of heads, the 4 bbl and the 2 bbl ones, the Ford 4 bbl intake won't fit the 2bbl Cleveland heads, but they did make aftermarket intakes that will.
Here is another Cleveland tidbit, I never knew if it were true or not, supposedly it is a direct copy, different cubic inches of course, of the 396 Chevy engine.
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Old 07-19-2005, 03:26 PM   #20
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Interesting. It seems to me the 351c was more of a problem child when it came to modifing it. But that's good info to know about the 351c.
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Old 08-12-2005, 06:34 PM   #21
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Re: Need engine build(er) advice.

I have to agree with him, as awsome as turbo's are, they don't do anything but break stuff, and they're not as bolt on as superchargers are for the windsor engines, people have been throwing blowers at 302's for the last 20 years, but the turbo market has only been kicking in around 5 years or so.
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Old 08-20-2005, 05:36 PM   #22
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Re: Need engine build(er) advice.

Find a late 60 model 351w and build a 408w. You
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Old 09-17-2005, 12:37 PM   #23
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Re: Need engine build(er) advice.

i have a balanced 347 stroker and am pushing an estimated 375 hp with just a holley 600 and decent porting and a weiand intake with 10.6 compression. Use caution with a blower on a stroker as they are prone to oil consumption and the increase in chamber pressure may increase that problem. I am not a professional, but have read some on this before. a 351 windsor based stroker would give you more hp due to more cubes and perhaps wouldnt require such a radical setup.
good luck!
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