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Old 06-15-2007, 12:34 AM   #1
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302 or 351w

I'm getting ready to build a fox body car that I want to street race in but still be able to daily drive it. I just can't decide if I should go 302 or 351w. If I go 302 I'm thinking of a 347 and if I go 351 I'm thinking of a 393. Either way I'm going to s/c it. I'm also looking for a min. of 500 rwhp and torque without the s/c. I like the 351 because of the ci avalibilty, but I've heard that the 302 block is stronger. I'm also thinking about down stroking a 351w, but I don't know much about down stroking a motor. What are the advantages of down stroking and is it a good idea for a 1/4 mile car with a six speed trani? Of my 3 options which would be the best if I end up running a nos system (which is a very slim chance)?
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:06 AM   #2
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Re: 302 or 351w

I would go with a 351. It is stronger and will make more power, or the same power with less stress.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:41 PM   #3
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Re: 302 or 351w

A Ford production 302 likes to split right up the middle in the neighborhood of 500hp...
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Old 06-15-2007, 03:53 PM   #4
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Re: 302 or 351w

Hmm.... Displacement is all but directly proportional to horsepower and torque. Why 393 when you can go 408 through Coast High Performance :yup:
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Old 06-15-2007, 07:58 PM   #5
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Re: 302 or 351w

Why go 408 when you can go 427
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:13 PM   #6
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Re: 302 or 351w

Why make Billions, when we can make Millions?
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:27 AM   #7
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Re: 302 or 351w

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Hmm.... Displacement is all but directly proportional to horsepower and torque. Why 393 when you can go 408 through Coast High Performance :yup:
That's only sort of true. Power is really a function of the bore - bigger bore motors have more power potential. Longer stroke motors make more torque at low RPM's, but have a reduction in RPM potential proportionate to the increase in stroke, so their power potential does not really increase in proportion to the displacement increase. This is one of the reasons why the more racey motors use a big bore and a modest stroke - that's the way to get more power.

As far as an "at least 500 rwhp" motor before supercharging is concerned, it is possible, but a pretty tall order, even if your benchmark is using dynojet numbers. A production 302 block is not going to be a worthwhile platform for that kind of setup, and if you are really talking about building an 800 RWHP motor once the supercharger is on, you should forget about any production block and start thinking about a $50000 budget by the time you have sorted out clutch or torque converter, transmission, rear end, cage, exhaust, and all the other parts that will be required to make a complete vehicle capable of handling that power. Maybe that's the kind of ride you are talking about, but if you are on a $10000 budget, you need to adjust your expectations a little.

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Old 06-17-2007, 09:51 PM   #8
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Re: 302 or 351w

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That's only sort of true. Power is really a function of the bore - bigger bore motors have more power potential. Longer stroke motors make more torque at low RPM's, but have a reduction in RPM potential proportionate to the increase in stroke, so their power potential does not really increase in proportion to the displacement increase. This is one of the reasons why the more racey motors use a big bore and a modest stroke - that's the way to get more power.


-Matthew

Let me guess, your one of those 331's are better than 347 guys.

The only "problem" that there is to deal with on a longer stronger would be to compensate for the rotating mass with lighter rods and pistons, which is already solved with 99.9 percent of engine bore kits out there :yup:

50,000 for 800 whp?? Yeah, if you pay someone to do EVERYTHING.

I say 408 with a hellion turbo kit we'll say 18,000 right there to way over shoot. 5 thousand (another overshoot) for your choice of tranny/tq converter/clutch setup, 3 grand for Ford 9 inch fully prepped, 2 grand for fuel(full returnstyle setup), 2 grand for ignition, and we'll just round it up and say 5 grand for a bigstuff 3 and tuning. And that's WAY overshooting. You're 15 grand off.
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Old 06-19-2007, 02:19 AM   #9
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Re: 302 or 351w

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Let me guess, your one of those 331's are better than 347 guys.
Both those setups use the same bore. I'm a 4.185" small block bore guy myself. Let me guess, you are a 6000 RPM is the limit for pushrod Fords kind of guy.

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I say 408 with a hellion turbo kit we'll say 18,000 right there to way over shoot.
Good luck keeping that together. This is the kind of setup I am talking about: BENNETT RACING ONLINE • 800-240-RACE • #1 ENGINE BUILDER

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5 thousand (another overshoot) for your choice of tranny/tq converter/clutch setup, 3 grand for Ford 9 inch fully prepped, 2 grand for fuel(full returnstyle setup), 2 grand for ignition, and we'll just round it up and say 5 grand for a bigstuff 3 and tuning.
All in the ball park - A little high on the ignition system maybe.

Now add 10 pt cage - at least $2000 installed, more like $5000 if its chromoly, a full exhaust - $1000 for headers, $1000 for the rest in large tubing mandel bent, seats and harness -$1000 if you want two seats and something nice, K-member and full suspension - $2000 or so, and then do ALL the work yourself.

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You're 15 grand off.
That all adds up to $54000. With no labor except the long block assembly. Oh, and that didn't even get a water pump, alternator, or accessory brackets, and probably a dozen other little details.

When you are talking about 800 HP AT THE WHEELS, even on a generous dynojet, you are talking about some exotic stuff. If you are only talking about 800 HP on an engine dyno its still going to be tough with the kind of parts you are talking about. I do enjoy coming up against guys with your mindset at the track though, because after a couple of rounds of qualifying you are scattered all over the place and no longer a competitor to me.

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Old 06-19-2007, 05:52 AM   #10
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Re: 302 or 351w

351 all the way. If you can afford it, do it. More torque, stronger block and more possibilities.
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:06 AM   #11
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Re: 302 or 351w

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Let me guess, your one of those 331's are better than 347 guys.
It all comes down to what you want out of your vehicle, but his 1990 coupe has an NA 399ci (351W-based) that's running mid-low 10 second quarter miles at an altitude of 2200'....... so call me crazy, but he might just have a tad bit of experience in this kind of thing
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:08 AM   #12
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Re: 302 or 351w

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It all comes down to what you want out of your vehicle, but his 1990 coupe has an NA 399ci (351W-based) that's running mid-low 10 second quarter miles at an altitude of 2200'....... so call me crazy, but he might just have a tad bit of experience in this kind of thing
:chin:
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:02 PM   #13
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Re: 302 or 351w

I was overshooting it..... Why is just when people have something fast they automaticallly know more than other people? I've never understood that... Maybe it's the wow factor?




That was assuming you buy everything new which is crazy. Please, a 408 would be fine for that application.

How does 35,000 + 7,000 equal 54,000? Even with a chromoly cage that you priced it is more like 45,000 dollars....


Like I said, that's assuming you pay someone to do all that stuff yourself. Hell 400 bucks for an electric water pump, replace the shaft on the stock oil pump, and that's still no where near 50,000.

Look, I'm not trying to make an enemy out of you in the least, especially since you are a new guy and a fellow pushrod guy, I just don't think it would cost near that much, unless you have to pay someone to do it all. I like these discussions, I like to be forced into research to learn more. And no, I'm not one of those guys who thinks pushrods shouldn't be revved to over 6,000 rpm. Now if it was still a hydraulic roller with big duration and/or lift then yeah, but that involves having the right tool for the job.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:05 PM   #14
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Re: 302 or 351w

To add to that post, you sound more like the person who races every weekend and actually competes which that would be way more likely to fit your application(the bennett racing engine you linked), but for me, I like to go fast occasionally and be able to drive it every day(not saying you can't use that motor everyday), so me, personally, would not need something that extreme.
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:25 PM   #15
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Re: 302 or 351w

The real issue here is that Z-Eater says he wants 500 RWHP without the supercharger, then he wants to supercharge it. It is extremely unusual to even make a 400 RWHP pass on a Mustang dyno, which is still only around 450 on a dynojet using a production style block and jobber hardware. A CHP 408 with AFR 205's, Victor 5.8 EFI intake, 1.75" - 3" long tubes and exhaust and a Comp 292R solid roller (about 260* at 50 thou and .627" lift) made 385 at the wheels on my MD-600 dynamometer. As I said in my original post, either Z-Eater needs to have a big budget for his project, or he needs to adjust his expectations. That's all there is to it.

As to the math, adding $30000 for a typical motor in that class like the Bennett Racing motor I linked, and $24000 for all the extra parts, adds up to $54000. I will say that Jon Bennett's motors are worth every penny. Since I got one of his short blocks and a set of heads from Total Engine Airflow and put it all together I have been in four events and won 3 outright and went out of the final one with an electrical problem.

In the dyno business I see guys every day with huge power dreams and no idea of what it really takes to make it. A $15000-$20000 budget will build a hell of a car, but actually getting to the plateau that Z-Eater is talking about costs a ton of money and a ton of work.

One problem out there is the fact that a lot of engine builders advertise their engine output in gross horsepower from an engine dyno. This number is always inflated substantially with respect to what the engine will make at the rear wheels. This can create some wild expectations which are quickly dashed when the final setup is brought to the dyno or race track. I'm just trying to open Z-Eater's eyes here so that he ends up with a budget and expectations that line up with each other.

-Matthew
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Old 06-20-2007, 04:25 PM   #16
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Re: 302 or 351w

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One problem out there is the fact that a lot of engine builders advertise their engine output in gross horsepower from an engine dyno. This number is always inflated substantially with respect to what the engine will make at the rear wheels. This can create some wild expectations which are quickly dashed when the final setup is brought to the dyno or race track. I'm just trying to open Z-Eater's eyes here so that he ends up with a budget and expectations that line up with each other.

-Matthew

Gotcha...... The thing is with dyno numbers is that you(figuratively) can say I want to get XXX hp at the wheels, when in reality the person should be asking what kind of times they want to run. With your experience of all people, dyno numbers aren't too important unless you compare it to a baseline on the same dyno and are trying to improve on said power. Ok.... wait, I think I just lost myself and was about to start a totally different rant that has nothing to do with the thread, so I'll stop while I'm ahead, errr... behind or whatever

WOW, you live all the way up in Canada and you deal with bennett over in Alabama. I've ALWAYS heard awesome stuff from his shop and he is the only shop that would ever assemble anything I own, but damn, I had no idea he was so big... I mean, I knew he was big in NMRA/NMCA and so on, but all the way up north?
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:07 AM   #17
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Re: 302 or 351w

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WOW, you live all the way up in Canada and you deal with bennett over in Alabama. I've ALWAYS heard awesome stuff from his shop and he is the only shop that would ever assemble anything I own, but damn, I had no idea he was so big... I mean, I knew he was big in NMRA/NMCA and so on, but all the way up north?
I had a locally built 351W based (production block) motor, and it worked pretty well, but it always had lots of blow-by and we were getting tired of having to face power adder cars in shootouts all the time and losing. When my engineer and I started looking for a naturally aspirated combination in a street car that could stand up to the supercharger and nitrous guys, it became pretty clear that there was a very very short list of guys who could setup a short block that was going to work, and Jon Bennett was at the top of that list. We got him to do the short block and oiling system, and I put together the rest of it with some heads from Total Engine Airflow, and now we are running 10.50's at 2400 ft tracks on straight 91 octane pump gas with under 400 inches in displacement, and a full DOT legal, full street weight car with a 5 speed H-pattern (TKO-600) transmission. That's enough to beat most of the supercharger and nitrous guys, and it's a nice reliable combination. Like I said earlier, Jon Bennett isn't cheap, but he's worth it every penny.

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Old 06-22-2007, 07:33 PM   #18
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Re: 302 or 351w

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Old 06-24-2007, 10:02 PM   #19
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Re: 302 or 351w

I think I was getting a little ahead of myself when I posted that. I'm not looking for a $50,000 and 800 rwhp car. Being a little more realistic what I'm looking for is more like around 550 hp at the flywheel after the supercharger. I am wanting to try and stay on a semi low budget but I will spend the money nessesary to get the hp I'm looking for. I was also wanting to know if a kenne bell screw type supercharger is worth the money?
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Old 06-25-2007, 04:12 PM   #20
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Re: 302 or 351w

Not on a pushrod.... I have only seen them offer setups for a GT40 lower intake for their blowzilla. I would go with a 377 or something of the sort with a turbo...... That's me...
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Old 06-25-2007, 04:17 PM   #21
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Re: 302 or 351w

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I had a locally built 351W based (production block) motor, and it worked pretty well, but it always had lots of blow-by and we were getting tired of having to face power adder cars in shootouts all the time and losing.

What class would involve an all motor car vs FI/nitrous?

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I had a locally built 351W based (production block) motor, and it worked pretty well, but it always had lots of blow-by and we

Sounds more like problems from the "local" guy that caused the blow by. And from what I am assuming, you went from local guy who does ok work, to top of the line no holds bar engine work..

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When my engineer and I started looking for a naturally aspirated combination in a street car that could stand up to the supercharger and nitrous guys, it became pretty clear that there was a very very short list of guys who could setup a short block that was going to work, and Jon Bennett was at the top of that list.
You have an engineer? What is his purpose(no I'm not being sarcarstic, seriously)?
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Old 06-28-2007, 12:18 AM   #22
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Re: 302 or 351w

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What class would involve an all motor car vs FI/nitrous?
Shootouts in Western Canada are not well organized with standardized classes, and the rules vary widely. Sometimes you are classed against only other NA cars or NA V8s with FI V6s, but a lot of the time they simply break the classes based on tires. This is a stupid way to run a shootout, but it is an unfortunate reality in many cases, so I am forced to run in a 10.5 slick class against unlimited displacement and power adder cars. One event series around here requires DOT tires, but allows any fuel including alcohol, and V8 power adder cars. I have M/T 28x12.5 ET Streets for that event! If there were a bunch of NMRA events around here, we would have put in a bigger cam and 15:1 compression and raced in Hot Street, but we have to deal with the events that there are. Fortunately, we now have enough heat to compete in most cases.



Quote:
Sounds more like problems from the "local" guy that caused the blow by. And from what I am assuming, you went from local guy who does ok work, to top of the line no holds bar engine work..
You're right. It wasn't a bad motor really, but after that experience when we decided to step it up, it was obvious that noone in Alberta was qualified to do the short block, and not that many guys in the US were either. I'm pretty happy about our choice right now though.


Quote:
You have an engineer? What is his purpose(no I'm not being sarcarstic, seriously)?
Sounds funny doesn't it. Well, this guy is a good friend of mine and holds a PhD in Mechanical Engineering from Stanford. He does stuff like simulation, parts matching, cam profiling and other engineering tasks related to the Mustang project. He is working on a custom intake for a future version of the car right now actually. Doug's a pretty handy guy to have at the track too when it comes to decisions about how to set and run the car for the current track conditions. We've worked together on this project for about 7 years now, and at each iteration the car has really worked exactly as we have expected it to based on our careful scientific analysis before each series of changes.

There is hardly a business out there with as many charlatans as the performance business, so it's really up to you to do your homework on parts and parts combinations before you commit to something. This avoids a lot of disappointment when your combination doesn't work, or when one part in a system is not strong enough and then it breaks and destroys a whole bunch of good parts. A guy like Doug really helps to avoid these kind of bad situations. Maybe everybody should have an engineer working with them on their Mustang project!

-Matthew
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:49 PM   #23
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Re: 302 or 351w

I think I'm gonna go with the 351w. Is there any specific year block that's better than others?
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Old 07-06-2007, 05:10 PM   #24
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Re: 302 or 351w

Yes, try and find one out of a 95 lightning or in a newer(i believe 94 and up) E 150 van. You want a 351W roller motor.
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:38 AM   #25
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Re: 302 or 351w

i just bought a 98 explorer motor, but i'm wait'n on my dad to blow the rear end outa his 96 e-150 "351 roller"....soon i will have the ability to talk crap like everyone else with big h.p. cars. as soon as i rob the bank or win the lottery, i will be on eveyone's *** like white on rice baby!.....i'm take'n notes from all the smart people on here!
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:30 PM   #26
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Re: 302 or 351w

I would've thought an older block was better, but that's why I'm asking ?'s. I already have a 351w block from an 86 F-250 because I put a pretty badass 460 in it, so is it gonna be worth my time getting a newer block? I'm pretty sure I already know ,But just in case I'm wrong what excatly is the difference in a roller motor and why can't I put a roller cam in a non-roller motor? If I find a motor that's already out of the vehicle how can I identify if it's a roller motor short of looking up the block #'s?
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:02 PM   #27
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Re: 302 or 351w

You would have to "convert" it to a roller motor..... The stuff is like 80 bucks and there is some stuff you have to do... Let me do some googling.



One link...

Roller Cam Conversion - Mustangs & Fords Magazine

Another...

FORDMUSCLE webmagazine - Roller Converison


And here is some parts info:

Ford Racing Performance Parts [M-6253-A50**]
Ford Racing Performance Parts [M-6500-S58*]

or the whole shebang:

5.8L/351, FORD - summitracing.com
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Old 07-12-2007, 07:04 PM   #28
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Re: 302 or 351w

Talk about an old post.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:30 PM   #29
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Re: 302 or 351w

/\WTF mate?
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:06 PM   #30
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Re: 302 or 351w

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Talk about an old post.
A month old is nothing around here. 2 years? Yeah, that's oldish.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:08 PM   #31
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Re: 302 or 351w

6-28 to 7-06 isn't even two weeks... Plus it's the original poster's thread and he is still asking questions about the original topic. Got me...
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:15 PM   #32
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Re: 302 or 351w

Hey guys. I'm using a 1969 351 block with a roller conversion bored .30 over. Ford Racing 'Z' Heads with 10.2 compression piston and I'm hoping to get at least 400 hp at the flywheel. I've got a 72 351 that i'm planning to bore .40 over with 12:1 compression pistons.I'm getting an eagle 408 stroker kit with AFR 205s and roller conversion to hopefully make 600 at the flywheel. Maybe down the road i'll get a World block or a Dart block and make a nice 427 out of it but for now this is my plan
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:38 PM   #33
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Re: 302 or 351w

I like the 427 ideal myself.
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