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Old 05-23-2012, 06:21 PM   #806
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Re: what it takes...

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Looks like I am gonna have to check out the advance mechanism. there seems to be quite a bit of slop in it.

And the actual shaft with the gear on it, is able to slide up and down about a 1/16" . I don't know if the slop is coming from that. But I think its the mechanism.

For shiz and giggles I pulled the dizzy, made sure there were no burrs on it. I also wanted to make sure the gear was doing ok. Which it seems to be.

The o ring on it doesn't seem like it sticks out past the housing. That maybe why I have some oil around there.

I made a little video so you can see the slop I am talking about. It's like, if you turn the rotor against the spring(as if it were advancing) , then let off of it. It's like its not returning all the way. After I do that and let it back I am still able to turn it about a 1/4" or less.

Also I took a pic of between the housing and locking collar that control the shaft from sliding up and down.
I don't remember off hand what the play up and down should be, but that may be too much.
I'd definitely pull the rotary cap off and check out the advance mechanism play there, that seems excessive.
Yeah, that o-ring should protrude a bit to seal up good.


You MSD distributor has sure been a PITA for you. I have never seen one give any problems, yet yours seems to possibly have several. We'll hope that is not the case, but something is going on to cause it to lose timing like it has been.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:27 PM   #807
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i took the rotor off. and i cant seem to tell, because i dont really know how the advance works. i think tomorow i may call msd and ask them a few question whle im on the phone. either that or i will take the advance apart.

yeah me and murphy are bff's. between me and him we can make anything happen.

i am pretty sure the play by the locking collar has always been like that.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:58 PM   #808
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Re: what it takes...

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i took the rotor off. and i cant seem to tell, because i dont really know how the advance works. i think tomorow i may call msd and ask them a few question whle im on the phone. either that or i will take the advance apart.

yeah me and murphy are bff's. between me and him we can make anything happen.

i am pretty sure the play by the locking collar has always been like that.
Mechanical advance works with the flyweights weight and the springs tension. A heavier weight will advance the timing faster and farther with fine tuning achieved by changing springs with more or less tension.


The lighter weights will advance the timing slower and not as far, also with the fine tuning provided by various spring tensions.

MSD Ignition Timing Video
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:08 PM   #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

Mechanical advance works with the flyweights weight and the springs tension. A heavier weight will advance the timing faster and farther with fine tuning achieved by changing springs with more or less tension.

The lighter weights will advance the timing slower and not as far, also with the fine tuning provided by various spring tensions.
i know the basic principle. i just dont fully understand it enough to pinpoint the slop. but i justed pulled it back out.

the slop is not in the advance. if i hold the gear, then the i cannot find slop in the advance mechanism like i thought. so it has to be in the meshing of the cam gear or the up and down slop of the shaft.

do you know how the shaft attaches on top? i cant see that without pulling the advance mechanism off. on the bottom that locking collar is roll pinned on there. so there is no way it could have moved.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:14 PM   #810
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Re: what it takes...

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i know the basic principle. i just dont fully understand it enough to pinpoint the slop. but i justed pulled it back out.

the slop is not in the advance. if i hold the gear, then the i cannot find slop in the advance mechanism like i thought. so it has to be in the meshing of the cam gear or the up and down slop of the shaft.

do you know how the shaft attaches on top? i cant see that without pulling the advance mechanism off. on the bottom that locking collar is roll pinned on there. so there is no way it could have moved.
That cam gear is the same diameter as the original right?
Even slightly smaller and it could affect the gear meshing and cause some slop.


The top shaft is usually held on by a clip inside and under the piece of felt in the center of the shaft. That distributor may be different. I do know the clip can be a PITA to reinstall and it's small enough to lose easily. It is usually made of wire and has two ends sticking up. you have to spread the ends to remove it I believe.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:16 PM   #811
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i double checked the gears for size by matching them up. i checked the measurment from the roll pin to the gear. and the size of the gear.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:32 PM   #812
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I know its hard to tell from the pic. But I slid the old one on the end to compare. They are as identical as the eye can see without measuring.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:36 PM   #813
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Re: what it takes...

I don't know where the slop can be coming from unless it is just built in to the advance mechanism.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:09 PM   #814
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so is it just possible that this is just normal backlash?

i called summit tech since msd is closed. he said that it does seem like alot of play but it shouldnt be enough to make the engine die. but i do have my idle really low. he did say the gear i used is finemalso. maybe its just some other freak coincedence? i am still gonna call msd. and

---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

actually i can tell if this is the problem. (light bulb). next time it acts up, instead of loosening up the dizzy i will take off the cap and move the rotor and see if it makes it better.

---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 PM ----------

the exact backlash at the rotor is 5/32"
the radius of the rotor to center is 2"
the gear is 1 1/4" diam or 5/8 radius
2 divided by 5/8 = 3.2
so 5/32 divided by 3.2 = .048" backlash on gear.

done farting around tonight.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:32 PM   #815
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Re: what it takes...

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so is it just possible that this is just normal backlash?

i called summit tech since msd is closed. he said that it does seem like alot of play but it shouldnt be enough to make the engine die. but i do have my idle really low. he did say the gear i used is finemalso. maybe its just some other freak coincedence? i am still gonna call msd. and

---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

actually i can tell if this is the problem. (light bulb). next time it acts up, instead of loosening up the dizzy i will take off the cap and move the rotor and see if it makes it better.

---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 PM ----------

the exact backlash at the rotor is 5/32"
the radius of the rotor to center is 2"
the gear is 1 1/4" diam or 5/8 radius
2 divided by 5/8 = 3.2
so 5/32 divided by 3.2 = .048" backlash on gear.

done farting around tonight.
That might just work. At least you will know for sure.
I wonder how much movement that equates to on the distributor base or degrees of timing? That would tell you if it is retarding it too much to where it won't idle.


Ugh! I hate fractions, I always have to convert them to decimals.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:49 PM   #816
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i did convert when i did it. but was easier to type in fractions. lol

well i can probably figure out how many degrees maybe. give me a few minutes.

---------- Post added at 08:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

4 x pie = 12.566 circumfrence of rotor
12.566 divided by 5/32 (.15625) = 80.424
80.424 x 2 =160.849. difference from dizzy to crank
360* divided by 160.849 = 2.238 * of timing

pheww.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:35 PM   #817
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Re: what it takes...

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i did convert when i did it. but was easier to type in fractions. lol

well i can probably figure out how many degrees maybe. give me a few minutes.

---------- Post added at 08:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

4 x pie = 12.566 circumfrence of rotor
12.566 divided by 5/32 (.15625) = 80.424
80.424 x 2 =160.849. difference from dizzy to crank
360* divided by 160.849 = 2.238 * of timing

pheww.
Pheww indeed.
Well that shouldn't be enough to kill it I wouldn't think, but maybe with the low idle it is?
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:57 AM   #818
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Pheww indeed.
Well that shouldn't be enough to kill it I wouldn't think, but maybe with the low idle it is?
Maybe. I'm glad I was able to figure that out. Cause I may have been worried for no reason. Maybe I overthink stuff?!? Lol I am just gonnna turn the idle up and see what happens for now.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:20 AM   #819
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Re: what it takes...

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Maybe. I'm glad I was able to figure that out. Cause I may have been worried for no reason. Maybe I overthink stuff?!? Lol I am just gonnna turn the idle up and see what happens for now.
I think we both have a tendency to over think things quite frequently, but it does no harm and occasionally we learn something new.
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:16 PM   #820
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I called msd today. And found out very important info.

First, the play that I have is totally normal.

Second. I lengthened the wired on the distributor. Those wires need to be twisted from where I made the connection at the distributor all the way to the btm. He said even the harness you can buy comes twisted together. If they are not twisted it can catch interference and mess with the timing.

Hopefully this is the problem!
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:26 PM   #821
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Hmmm, hope that fixes it for you, so basically they are saying their wires, if not twisted correctly, are susceptible to interference from other electrical devices?
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:34 PM   #822
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precisely. i cut the plug off the harness and lengthened it myself. i did not know to twist it. the actually extender harness that you can by from them comes twisted already. and it just so happens the wires run between the valve cover and alternator. the wires are very close to the alternator wires. so hopefully this fixxes it.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:08 PM   #823
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Hmm, idk, I guess I could see some interference but wouldn't think it would be enough to mess with the timing.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:13 PM   #824
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well im not sure but he was pretty confident. if im not mistaken those wires are the trigger wires which have to do with the timing events. i am not positive on that but when i installed the distributor i had to disconnect from the ignition box, the factory trigger wire.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:13 PM   #825
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Re: what it takes...

Crap! I knew that, why didn't I think of it?

Yes, it will definitely mess with the MSD ignition.
We (my cousin and I) also wrapped ours in foil tape and used plastic sleeving over them for extra protection.


The alternator produces EMI (Electromagnetic Interference) which wreaks havoc with the MSD signals.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:17 PM   #826
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Quote:
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Crap! I knew that, why didn't I think of it?

Yes, it will definitely mess with the MSD ignition.
We (my cousin and I) also wrapped ours in foil tape and used plastic sleeving over them for extra protection.

The alternator produces EMI (Electromagnetic Interference) which wreaks havoc with the MSD signals.
+1
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:36 PM   #827
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Well I guess I learned something over this mess. Hopefully it fixes it though.

---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

i did have the wires is plastic conduit. and the alternator wires were in its own seperate conduit. but the conduits were tied together.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:14 PM   #828
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Re: what it takes...

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Well I guess I learned something over this mess. Hopefully it fixes it though.

---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

i did have the wires is plastic conduit. and the alternator wires were in its own seperate conduit. but the conduits were tied together.
Yeah, it requires shielding, which is accomplished by twisting the wires or using a dedicated shielded wire.
At some point you may want to pick up some shielded wire.......or not.
I'm a bit anal about things like that so I tend to over do it quite frequently.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:19 PM   #829
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We have a good selection of wire at work. I maybe able to score something. For now I will twist them. And you said you have used foil? So I can just take a piece of foil the length of the wire and wrap it around it after I twist it. Then throw it back in the conduit?
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:32 PM   #830
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We have a good selection of wire at work. I maybe able to score something. For now I will twist them. And you said you have used foil? So I can just take a piece of foil the length of the wire and wrap it around it after I twist it. Then throw it back in the conduit?
Yes, that will definitely help.
It works better if you can ground each end of the foil, but it still benefits as shielding if you don't, just a bit less so.


We used a heavy foil tape that had adhesive on it from McMaster-Carr I think.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:38 PM   #831
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Yes, that will definitely help.
It works better if you can ground each end of the foil, but it still benefits as shielding if you don't, just a bit less so.

We used a heavy foil tape that had adhesive on it from McMaster-Carr I think.
I will see what we have at work tomorrow. If not foil tape sounds good. The tape should be the same kinda tape for duct work at the hardware stores? I don't mean duct tape either. Lol
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:43 PM   #832
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I will see what we have at work tomorrow. If not foil tape sounds good. The tape should be the same kinda tape for duct work at the hardware stores? I don't mean duct tape either. Lol
Yes, that will work.
Duct Board tape made specifically for heater/AC insulated ducting is usually aluminum so it works just fine.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:46 PM   #833
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Yes, that will work.
Duct Board tape made specifically for heater/AC insulated ducting is usually aluminum so it works just fine.
Perfect. I have to work sat and Sun. So the update may be slow. But ill update on how it does. Thanx.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:58 PM   #834
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Perfect. I have to work sat and Sun. So the update may be slow. But ill update on how it does. Thanx.
No problem.


Hey do me a favor and see if you think my reply to this post Plasti Dip My Car is out of line or too offensive, please?
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:12 AM   #835
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No problem.

Hey do me a favor and see if you think my reply to this post Plasti Dip My Car is out of line or too offensive, please?
No I don't think so. Looks like an honest opinion to me. Maybe not what wants to be heard though. But I would rather have honesty.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:19 AM   #836
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Hey is shielded with 2 16 gauge wires good enough? Or do I need 12 or 14 gauge. I think its good enough but not sure. Thanx
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:07 PM   #837
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Hey is shielded with 2 16 gauge wires good enough? Or do I need 12 or 14 gauge. I think its good enough but not sure. Thanx
I would think that the 16 gauge would be sufficient, but I'd size them the same as the MSD factory wires just to be sure. They are just signal wires so the "current" should be minimal.
It's the power supply wiring to the box that I usually oversize to ensure plenty of current is available.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:16 PM   #838
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This is the wire I got.
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Old 05-25-2012, 06:44 PM   #839
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This is the wire I got.
That should work just fine.
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Old 05-25-2012, 06:47 PM   #840
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Sweet. Now when I get a chance to hook it up, we can see if this fixes it. I am confident though.
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