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Old 09-07-2012, 04:16 PM   #2171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure

Will that setup help secure the axle tubes?
i think so. does it seem chinsy? be honest now. lol
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:19 PM   #2172
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i think so. does it seem chinsy? be honest now. lol
No, I don't think so. I wish I had my iPad cause dang phones are tiny.

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

Will the tubes likely twist, like with the rotation of the tires?
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:23 PM   #2173
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No, I don't think so. I wish I had my iPad cause dang phones are tiny.
im not very good at drawing. lol but i have the exact picture im looking for in my head. i think it should be as close to as strong as the lpw setup. i just dont know if not using the rod ends matters or not. cause i would like to do it this way. very similar though.

---------- Post added at 04:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:20 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure

No, I don't think so. I wish I had my iPad cause dang phones are tiny.

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

Will the tubes likely twist, like with the rotation of the tires?
twist or seperate. did you see the pic that 90mustanglx posted recently. his buddy just had his tubes seperate from the pumpkin. and i believe he said he was pushing under 400(?) hp i think. i think i may also do the support in the pic that i posted that is just a weld in on the inside of the housing. but this is all over time. for now i just want to get the cover done. but i need to know my full design so i can incorporate it the cover.
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:24 PM   #2174
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Or, do the tubes twist this way... (either direction)
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:31 PM   #2175
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here this is the one 90mus posted. it didnt say horsepower but he said 4.10 gears. and if you notice the tube was welded, which i extra support already.
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:31 PM   #2176
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Or, do the tubes twist this way... (either direction)
im not exactly sure. but i know its not good.
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:35 PM   #2177
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Re: what it takes...

Ah, yes I remember that one. I went looking and didn't get back far enough. So it does seem to twist forward and backward, kinda. It seems like your setup would work.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Well, I'm off like a prom dress. Time for me to get in my Prius and get home....slowly
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:42 PM   #2178
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Originally Posted by Azure
Ah, yes I remember that one. I went looking and didn't get back far enough. So it does seem to twist forward and backward, kinda. It seems like your setup would work.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Well, I'm off like a prom dress. Time for me to get in my Prius and get home....slowly
haha. later man.
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:47 PM   #2179
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Originally Posted by Azure
Ah, yes I remember that one. I went looking and didn't get back far enough. So it does seem to twist forward and backward, kinda. It seems like your setup would work.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Well, I'm off like a prom dress. Time for me to get in my Prius and get home....slowly
Hey yo azzy I found your homie at whalemart today!..I bet you could take'em in da priass!!
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:50 PM   #2180
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Hey yo azzy I found your homie at whalemart today!..I bet you could take'em in da priass!!
hey dont make fun of the smart car. they make great trailer haulers. on sec i will show you.
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:55 PM   #2181
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Here
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:00 PM   #2182
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Oh yeah they're a real workhorse!..that's why I parked next to it lol..
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:01 PM   #2183
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yeah. if you notice it also has a luggage rack. lol
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:21 PM   #2184
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yeah. if you notice it also has a luggage rack. lol
And here I am drivin an american icon like a sucker!...wtf am I thinkin?!...well I did say if I loose motm im buyin a smart car lol..but I think im happy with the way it's goin so far
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:33 PM   #2185
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Hey yo azzy I found your homie at whalemart today!..I bet you could take'em in da priass!!
Yup, I'm slippery fast in my Prius yo! I can got 80!
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:48 PM   #2186
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Here
Oh man, that's...
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:10 PM   #2187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstang
here this is the one 90mus posted. it didnt say horsepower but he said 4.10 gears. and if you notice the tube was welded, which i extra support already.
Basically all stock motor cept exhaust and intake with slicks
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:12 PM   #2188
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Awww yeah boi!!
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:27 PM   #2189
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Re: what it takes...

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Originally Posted by dreamstang View Post
Ok one more question. What's the theory using a ball/hein type connection? Because I think I can make a tube with the nuts welded in like you said. And then make the mounts on both the cover and axle tube parallel with each other face to face. That way all I need is to use regular ol 1/2" threaded rod in each end with jam nuts on each side of the mounts.
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Ok trojan. Here's the way I kinda wanted to do it. I will be able to apply load to the tubing and should be a pretty easy install. It looks kinda elaborate but really isnt. Let me know what you think.
The rod ends were used for the bit of misalignment and depth difference from the housing mounting points to the axle tabs I would guess looking at the LPW diagram. I don't know if fastening it solid would have any negative effects or not for sure, maybe with a steel cover it doesn't matter?


If you use threaded rod, get the grade 8 rod. The regular stuff is very weak at only 53,000 psi tensile, while the grade 8 is closer to the rod end strength at 150,000 psi.
In your use however you could also just use a fully threaded grade 8 bolt and weld the head in the tube maybe?


Other than that, your design looks as if it would work just fine.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:43 PM   #2190
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Re: what it takes...

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here this is the one 90mus posted. it didnt say horsepower but he said 4.10 gears. and if you notice the tube was welded, which i extra support already.
When you weld the tubes you need to go all the way around, 1-2" strips at a time and fill almost the entire height (2 or more passes) of the center section flange. You also do not want to get it to hot. Adding the axle supports would probably have helped prevent that at that HP level. If he's lucky it did not break the center section and the tubes can be cleaned up and reinserted and re-welded. There are also one, maybe two spots where the axle tubes are welded in holes drilled through the center section where the tubes slip in. That is all that holds them from the factory. Those should be checked and welded up solid too. With all that, if it breaks again the center will be trashed.

I'm going the extra mile on mine. It will have all that and more braces like I posted once before back in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Or, do the tubes twist this way... (either direction)
Under forward acceleration the housing twists up, both sides, entire rear end.

Accelerating hard in reverse causes the housing to rotate downward. If it goes far enough it will bind and shatter the U-joint and jerk the driveshaft out of the transmission, so it is a very good idea to NOT do that ever.

Basically the housing will want to rotate opposite the direction the tires are turning.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:54 PM   #2191
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

The rod ends were used for the bit of misalignment and depth difference from the housing mounting points to the axle tabs I would guess looking at the LPW diagram. I don't know if fastening it solid would have any negative effects or not for sure, maybe with a steel cover it doesn't matter?

If you use threaded rod, get the grade 8 rod. The regular stuff is very weak at only 53,000 psi tensile, while the grade 8 is closer to the rod end strength at 150,000 psi.
In your use however you could also just use a fully threaded grade 8 bolt and weld the head in the tube maybe?

Other than that, your design looks as if it would work just fine.
i am also pondering the idea of incorporating a hard rubber bushing in the end of the rod. we have these really good one at work that will work perfect.

---------- Post added at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

When you weld the tubes you need to go all the way around, 1-2" strips at a time and fill almost the entire height (2 or more passes) of the center section flange. You also do not want to get it to hot. Adding the axle supports would probably have helped prevent that at that HP level. If he's lucky it did not break the center section and the tubes can be cleaned up and reinserted and re-welded. There are also one, maybe two spots where the axle tubes are welded in holes drilled through the center section where the tubes slip in. That is all that holds them from the factory. Those should be checked and welded up solid too. With all that, if it breaks again the center will be trashed.

I'm going the extra mile on mine. It will have all that and more braces like I posted once before back in this thread.

Under forward acceleration the housing twists up, both sides, entire rear end.

Accelerating hard in reverse causes the housing to rotate downward. If it goes far enough it will bind and shatter the U-joint and jerk the driveshaft out of the transmission, so it is a very good idea to NOT do that ever.

Basically the housing will want to rotate opposite the direction the tires are turning.
isnt the center section cast?
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:59 PM   #2192
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Re: what it takes...

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i am also pondering the idea of incorporating a hard rubber bushing in the end of the rod. we have these really good one at work that will work perfect.

---------- Post added at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

isnt the center section cast?
The bushing might not be a bad idea.


Yes it is cast, that's why you need to be careful and not overheat it when welding and to get as much contact as possible with the weld.
Surprisingly (at least it was to me initially) the cast is easily weldable for this purpose with a MIG welder.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:11 PM   #2193
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

The bushing might not be a bad idea.

Yes it is cast, that's why you need to be careful and not overheat it when welding and to get as much contact as possible with the weld.
Surprisingly (at least it was to me initially) the cast is easily weldable for this purpose with a MIG welder.
really you shouldnt weld cast with a mig welder. i think the only reason you have had luck is because your caution without getting it to hot. usually welding on cast the weld breaks when its cooling. as your not getting it hot you maybe avoiding this a little bit. but really its not a very strong weld.

the proper way is to preheat the cast wih a torch to probably 400* (i think). and it is usally done with an arc welder. it requires a special rod. i forget the name of it, but it is really high tensil strength, like 125,000 lb strength. compared to a normal rod like 7018 would be 70,000. then after the welding is done we usually use insulation, like used in a house to cover it up so it cools really slow.

but you can see as example in 90mustangs photo that i reposted earlier they didnt get any penetration into the cast.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:21 PM   #2194
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really you shouldnt weld cast with a mig welder. i think the only reason you have had luck is because your caution without getting it to hot. usually welding on cast the weld breaks when its cooling. as your not getting it hot you maybe avoiding this a little bit. but really its not a very strong weld.

the proper way is to preheat the cast wih a torch to probably 400* (i think). and it is usally done with an arc welder. it requires a special rod. i forget the name of it, but it is really high tensil strength, like 125,000 lb strength. compared to a normal rod like 7018 would be 70,000. then after the welding is done we usually use insulation, like used in a house to cover it up so it cools really slow.

but you can see as example in 90mustangs photo that i reposted earlier they didnt get any penetration into the cast.
Huh...ya know you should get a job as a welder or somthin..deRp °
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:34 PM   #2195
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Huh...ya know you should get a job as a welder or somthin..deRp °
thts a great idea. you know anyone hiring?
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:53 PM   #2196
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This place looks purdy reputable eh?.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:56 PM   #2197
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Re: what it takes...

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really you shouldnt weld cast with a mig welder. i think the only reason you have had luck is because your caution without getting it to hot. usually welding on cast the weld breaks when its cooling. as your not getting it hot you maybe avoiding this a little bit. but really its not a very strong weld.

the proper way is to preheat the cast wih a torch to probably 400* (i think). and it is usally done with an arc welder. it requires a special rod. i forget the name of it, but it is really high tensil strength, like 125,000 lb strength. compared to a normal rod like 7018 would be 70,000. then after the welding is done we usually use insulation, like used in a house to cover it up so it cools really slow.

but you can see as example in 90mustangs photo that i reposted earlier they didnt get any penetration into the cast.
Yup, I know all that and I did preheat to get better penetration and wrapped to slow cool, what I did not do is use nickel or other special rod and an arc welder. I did a lot of different types of welding at the plant repairing, fabbing and building things for the plant and other departments.


I didn't mention preheating and wrapping for slow cooling because I knew you already knew to do that.


Evidently (from past research and the housings I have done anyways) as long as you clean it thoroughly, preheat to aid penetration and let it cool slowly, the casting has enough nickel/carbon in it that you can MIG weld it and get it to hold fairly decently. That's also why I said to weld almost to the top of the flange, so you get the extra surface area for strength. If you check enough 8.8 housings you will also eventually see a piece of wire sticking out of the welds through where the factory welded the housing to the tubes.


At the plant, my cousin Mike and I spent quite a bit of time welding up huge rocker boxes for the generating engines. What we found using numerous different types of rods and techniques is that you never really get any penetration welding cast iron, even when using matching grey iron cast iron rod. It always sticks to mostly the surface as deep in as you burn with your heat setting and that's it. When ever it breaks that's usually where it will break too. We did have the best luck using nickel rod though welding cast to cast. We ended up using a large rosebud and temp indicating paste to preheat. The arc gouging/heating rod we tried was just to erratic. Welding cast to steel is a whole nother story though, and no matter how you go about it, it's never going to turn out very strong.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:02 PM   #2198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

When you weld the tubes you need to go all the way around, 1-2" strips at a time and fill almost the entire height (2 or more passes) of the center section flange. You also do not want to get it to hot. Adding the axle supports would probably have helped prevent that at that HP level. If he's lucky it did not break the center section and the tubes can be cleaned up and reinserted and re-welded. There are also one, maybe two spots where the axle tubes are welded in holes drilled through the center section where the tubes slip in. That is all that holds them from the factory. Those should be checked and welded up solid too. With all that, if it breaks again the center will be trashed.

I'm going the extra mile on mine. It will have all that and more braces like I posted once before back in this thread.

Under forward acceleration the housing twists up, both sides, entire rear end.

Accelerating hard in reverse causes the housing to rotate downward. If it goes far enough it will bind and shatter the U-joint and jerk the driveshaft out of the transmission, so it is a very good idea to NOT do that ever.

Basically the housing will want to rotate opposite the direction the tires are turning.
He told me the axle flexed so much it ripped the back like in the picture open and kinked the tube on the front side. I think it just had one too many passes on a higher HP motor.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:06 PM   #2199
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

Yup, I know all that and I did preheat to get better penetration and wrapped to slow cool, what I did not do is use nickel or other special rod and an arc welder. I did a lot of different types of welding at the plant repairing, fabbing and building things for the plant and other departments.

I didn't mention preheating and wrapping for slow cooling because I knew you already knew to do that.

Evidently (from past research and the housings I have done anyways) as long as you clean it thoroughly, preheat to aid penetration and let it cool slowly, the casting has enough nickel/carbon in it that you can MIG weld it and get it to hold fairly decently. That's also why I said to weld almost to the top of the flange, so you get the extra surface area for strength. If you check enough 8.8 housings you will also eventually see a piece of wire sticking out of the welds through where the factory welded the housing to the tubes.

At the plant, my cousin Mike and I spent quite a bit of time welding up huge rocker boxes for the generating engines. What we found using numerous different types of rods and techniques is that you never really get any penetration welding cast iron, even when using matching grey iron cast iron rod. It always sticks to mostly the surface as deep in as you burn with your heat setting and that's it. When ever it breaks that's usually where it will break too. We did have the best luck using nickel rod though welding cast to cast. We ended up using a large rosebud and temp indicating paste to preheat. The arc gouging/heating rod we tried was just to erratic. Welding cast to steel is a whole nother story though, and no matter how you go about it, it's never going to turn out very strong.
Very good points. That is also the other thing with cast. There are so many different chemical make ups that each different type of piece maybe different. For instance a techniques used on one thing maybe different then used on another.

I do have a stick welder. But I may try the mig technique if it is a common practice. Idk my little Lincoln mig may not do very well on it. Maybe I will see if we have any Ni-rod at work.

Oh p.s. check out this robot welder I made to do v-groove welds a while back. I made it out of an old track burner. I wired the trigger wires from the whip to a kill switch. Then had an electrician throw a 1 second timer, so the wire feeds before it starts driving so it will puddle up first.

The picture with the 2 are real ones, not home made. I used some old parts from them to mount the whip on mine.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:26 PM   #2200
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Re: what it takes...

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He told me the axle flexed so much it ripped the back like in the picture open and kinked the tube on the front side. I think it just had one too many passes on a higher HP motor.
If he had, had the tube supports it may not have happened. Tell him to get the LPW Ultimate cover/girdle and the axle braces to go with it on his next one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstang View Post
Very good points. That is also the other thing with cast. There are so many different chemical make ups that each different type of piece maybe different. For instance a techniques used on one thing maybe different then used on another.

I do have a stick welder. But I may try the mig technique if it is a common practice. Idk my little Lincoln mig may not do very well on it. Maybe I will see if we have any Ni-rod at work.

Oh p.s. check out this robot welder I made to do v-groove welds a while back. I made it out of an old track burner. I wired the trigger wires from the whip to a kill switch. Then had an electrician throw a 1 second timer, so the wire feeds before it starts driving so it will puddle up first.

The picture with the 2 are real ones, not home made. I used some old parts from them to mount the whip on mine.

Yeah, there are so many different varieties and mixes of cast iron it's impossible to really tell what you have. We sent a sample of the rocker boxes off to a metallurgist so we could get the correct cast rod for welding them and even so it wasn't much if any better than the nickel rod we used before.


I've used my dinky 100 Amp Lincoln MIG w/.023 wire (don't laugh, it's what I had ), preheating first and welded up several Ford and Chevy rear end axle tubes over the years and as far as I know none of them broke loose. One guy blew the ring gear out the bottom of the housing and destroyed the center section, but the tubes held.


That's freaking awesome! Weld-O-Matic!
Did you get any compensation or recognition for your work and ingenuity?


I wish I had some pictures of the off the wall stuff Mike and I built over the years at the plant.
One of the more memorable was an automatic air powered honing machine to hone the bores on those rocker boxes we welded up. It had the works, you just set up the rocker box, set the hone to the proper size and started it in the bore. Turn the air and oiler on and let it rip. Worked like a charm and saved us uncountable hours of honing by hand with an electric drill.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:39 PM   #2201
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I agree, cool rig you built

And that would be cool to see some of the stuff you've worked on over the years TH.

I've been catching up here. With supporting the axle tubes, that's yet another energy transfer that goes to the wheels, I'm guessing? I can see why drag car launches look so cool in slow-mo! Your seeing that energy transfer through everything. I bet watching slow-mo video of pro setups would be a good idea to maybe catch something they can adjust that could make the car get sideways, etc.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:41 PM   #2202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

If he had, had the tube supports it may not have happened. Tell him to get the LPW Ultimate cover/girdle and the axle braces to go with it on his next one.

Yeah, there are so many different varieties and mixes of cast iron it's impossible to really tell what you have. We sent a sample of the rocker boxes off to a metallurgist so we could get the correct cast rod for welding them and even so it wasn't much if any better than the nickel rod we used before.

I've used my dinky 100 Amp Lincoln MIG w/.023 wire (don't laugh, it's what I had ), preheating first and welded up several Ford and Chevy rear end axle tubes over the years and as far as I know none of them broke loose. One guy blew the ring gear out the bottom of the housing and destroyed the center section, but the tubes held.

That's freaking awesome! Weld-O-Matic!
Did you get any compensation or recognition for your work and ingenuity?

I wish I had some pictures of the off the wall stuff Mike and I built over the years at the plant.
One of the more memorable was an automatic air powered honing machine to hone the bores on those rocker boxes we welded up. It had the works, you just set up the rocker box, set the hone to the proper size and started it in the bore. Turn the air and oiler on and let it rip. Worked like a charm and saved us uncountable hours of honing by hand with an electric drill.
I no laughy. My mig is small to. If its thicker than 1/4 I use my 200 amp miller stick welder.

No not much recognition besides I get stuck welding every single set of girders... Yay... Not..lol

Creating stuff like we do at least is rewarding none the less. And cool to. Haha.

Anyways I also have some pics of some recent cranes I have done. The first 4 are a small dinky automated plc controlled thingy.
And the rest are an 80 ft long 25 ton overhead. I do all the fitting welding conduit work etc. I even do a little basic wiring sometimes like disconnector and gear boxes, but not the serious stuff unless someone makes me a cheat sheet. Lol
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:51 PM   #2203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
I agree, cool rig you built

And that would be cool to see some of the stuff you've worked on over the years TH.

I've been catching up here. With supporting the axle tubes, that's yet another energy transfer that goes to the wheels, I'm guessing? I can see why drag car launches look so cool in slow-mo! Your seeing that energy transfer through everything. I bet watching slow-mo video of pro setups would be a good idea to maybe catch something they can adjust that could make the car get sideways, etc.
I would think it would help transfer power. I also love watching videos like that. It's amazing the amount of power they can put right to the ground.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:53 PM   #2204
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Originally Posted by dreamstang View Post

I would think it would help transfer power. I also love watching videos like that. It's amazing the amount of power they can put right to the ground.
It seems like they could use that as a tool. I would imagine every car acts slightly different, even with the same suspension setups.
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:00 PM   #2205
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Originally Posted by Azure

It seems like they could use that as a tool. I would imagine every car acts slightly different, even with the same suspension setups.
I don't think a super high hp car would run this kind of setup. They are running super tough rear ends that are shorted. The tires are really close to each other cause they are so wide. So they probably wouldn't even have room for braces. This is all just theory cause I actually never paid attention. But yeah maybe on certain cars, but not sure how much tuning you could really get out of it though.
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