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Old 03-03-2012, 12:13 AM   #281
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Re: what it takes...

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Originally Posted by dreamstang View Post
Im gonna get to bed now.ill read through that and the btm maual over the weekend.if my btm is capable of advancing,there's no way of getting it to do that now with my current dizzy? Or will that function only work with the msd units? Sorry for so many questions but I'm not that familar with performance type ignition systems. And thanks again.my car wouldn't be were it is now without you.
With your current distributor and not knowing how it is really wired, or working for that matter, I don't believe the MSD will do anything with it.
You may end up needing some additional type of MSD timing control, I really can't remember what all it takes or the exact specs of the BTM. I need to go back a study the MSD systems some more to refresh my memory.
I keep mixing up what you have with programmable controllers and I need to quit that so we don't head off down the wrong path. To many years and too much different info jumbled together in my mind is giving me a headache trying to sort it all out. I'm going to try and concentrate on just what you have along with the new distributor and see how we can make that work.


What I think at the moment, is that with the new distributor, we need to set the total timing (limit how far it can actually advance) and the BTM should be able to electronically ****** the spark as needed according to the amount pressure applied to it. If it does work that way (ask MSD to be sure) then that distributor will work perfectly and you won't need to worry about the BTM until later when you put it to use. In the meantime you can work toward tailoring the advance curve for your engine by changing the bushings and springs in the mechanical advance. I think you will look like this once everything is sorted out.


I hope I've been able to help.
Sometimes my thinking gets off center or completely bassackwards, so be on the lookout for those times.
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:42 AM   #282
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Sounds like a plan.
Btw you have done a great job helping.my setup is not the norm so sometimes my questions are a little tricky and outside the box which makes the answers the same.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:39 PM   #283
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Ok dizzy ordered.should be here tomorrow.ill have it installed sometime this week.
I also took it for a test drive.and sometimes it stalls a bit.it had this symptom sometimes before.I had found a short before I parked it and thought I had it resolved.I still need to hook up the new adjustable reg.I'm not gonna drive it no more till the dizzy and reg is installed.I have a feeling that its just low on gas and sloshing around.because its been in the garage I haven't made it to the gas station yet.because it got worse when getting on it , but only when driving.

Then when I went to restart the starter cranked really slow.I have 12.5 volts not running before and after drive.I have about 14.3 ish while idling.so I think my alt and battery are ok.I'm gonna see if it starts in a bit now that its colder.I also used to have this problem.I installed a starter blanket and it resolved this problem for a while.I'm sure there's a little added heat now though.but I think its just time for a new starter.now that I'm broke.lol

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 PM ----------

ok so after cool down it fired right up.definatley starter.

damn murphy again :.(
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:18 PM   #284
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Re: what it takes...

Yep, Murphy is always standing right there looking over your shoulder, with one hand in your pocket to see how much money you have left.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:55 PM   #285
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So , on the way home from work I stopped at the junkyard and picked up a starter.I really hate buying a used starter but I can't afford a new one at the moment.it does have a 90 warranty on it at least.

Anyways 1 question.will using that duplicolor engine enamel help or hurt a heat soaking starter? My old starter was just bad so there wasn't anymore helping it but I don't want to do anything that would possibly make that problem reoccure.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:15 PM   #286
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Re: what it takes...

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So , on the way home from work I stopped at the junkyard and picked up a starter.I really hate buying a used starter but I can't afford a new one at the moment.it does have a 90 warranty on it at least.

Anyways 1 question.will using that duplicolor engine enamel help or hurt a heat soaking starter? My old starter was just bad so there wasn't anymore helping it but I don't want to do anything that would possibly make that problem reoccure.
Been there many times, still there on occasion.


A thin coat of black should help it to dissipate heat a bit faster.
A thin coat of aluminum will help it reflect heat a bit better.
I'd do black and hack out an aluminum heat shield for it.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:46 PM   #287
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Ok

I decided to hook up the reg today and new filter.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:49 PM   #288
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I still didn't get pressure on the gauge.I only primed the pump by turning the key a few times though.I was scared to start it cause I spilt some fuel.

I have the return hooked up to one of the outlets on the reg.the other outlet goes to the carb.I haven't fiddled with the adjustment screw yet.but ill see what happens when I fire it up.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:26 AM   #289
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Re: what it takes...

With an electric pump you shouldn't have to start it to get pressure. I wonder how much pressure there is before the regulator?
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:58 AM   #290
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Ok last night I decided to have my wife watch the gauge while I primed it.and it is pressuring.when I was out there about 5 hours earlier I left the key on. Oops. So the battery was dead.I put the charger on it and was able to get only a few pounds,but like I said that was just with a dead battery and not adjusting the reg yet.so I think its gonna work.I left it on slow charge over night.ill see what happens today.
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:51 PM   #291
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I posted pics of all my other new parts so may as well throw this in.it comes with a cast gear on it so I'm gonna have to use my old one.
I've changed dizzys in other models but not this one.any pointers?I know how to get it timed and all that just didn't know if there were any tricks with the oil pump shaft or anything.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:22 PM   #292
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So I started the car and it says I'm only getting 2 psi.the fitting to the carb I put on the reg is leaking.I don't think its leaking enough to cause an inaccurate reading.but I need to get that resolved and then ill see what it says.but the way it looks I'm gonna have to install the bigger pump I have.one step forward two steps backwards.

---------- Post added at 04:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

should i check the plugs out to verify?
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:50 PM   #293
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ok i just looked at the pdf on summit for the regulator.it requires npt fittings.the person at autozone gave me fittings when i showed them the part.they said fuel fittings on the package and i also used a fitting that came with the carb.and i dont believe they are npt.oops. anyways i think i can snag some brass npt fittings from work.
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:53 PM   #294
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Re: what it takes...

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I posted pics of all my other new parts so may as well throw this in.it comes with a cast gear on it so I'm gonna have to use my old one.
I've changed dizzys in other models but not this one.any pointers?I know how to get it timed and all that just didn't know if there were any tricks with the oil pump shaft or anything.
I wonder why it does not have the proper gear?


I read something about checking the end play in the MSD distributor shaft after changing gears. If it is not in your instructions it's on their website I'm sure.


Changing the gears can be a PITA. If the holes do not line up, and I almost bet they won't as they are sometimes drilled at a slight angle which usually does not match from distributor to distributor, you will have to drill new holes in the roller cam gear you have. Go 90 degrees from the existing holes, height on the gear is very important so it does not go to far into or away from the cam gear, measure and drill carefully. Drill one hole in the gear, then install the gear on the shaft lined up with the hole in the shaft. Then using the hole in the shaft as a guide, drill through the other side.


Hopefully you won't have to do that, but JIC.


I have had some distributor be quite stubborn about lining up with the oil pump shaft.
I have had to use a socket taped onto a long extension so it does not fall off, to turn the pump shaft slightly to get the distributor to "stab" in the right place.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:00 PM   #295
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Re: what it takes...

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So I started the car and it says I'm only getting 2 psi.the fitting to the carb I put on the reg is leaking.I don't think its leaking enough to cause an inaccurate reading.but I need to get that resolved and then ill see what it says.but the way it looks I'm gonna have to install the bigger pump I have.one step forward two steps backwards.

should i check the plugs out to verify?
You should be able to crank the regulator down and bring the pressure up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstang View Post
ok i just looked at the pdf on summit for the regulator.it requires npt fittings.the person at autozone gave me fittings when i showed them the part.they said fuel fittings on the package and i also used a fitting that came with the carb.and i dont believe they are npt.oops. anyways i think i can snag some brass npt fittings from work.
Never listen to the parts counter people, I have yet to find one that know anything about what they are selling and I often have to go in the back with them to their fittings rack to get the fittings I need.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:21 PM   #296
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ok how does it hook to the pump shaft.is there another gear on the end of the shaft or does it slide into it?

i already read about the gear alignment on the dizzy.i think it said it needs to be + or - .010 " so i will be careful.

all the non roller cams used the cast gear.the roller cams used steel gear.i read that if u dont use the right gear the stronger one will ruin the other.but i also did read that if one gear is bronze it can be used with either.so best case scenario is that i have a bronze gear on the cam. i should be able to see that right?

---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 PM ----------

i tried to adjust the reg all over the place.i also didnt let it run to long because of the leak.so first ill fix that and go from there.

---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 PM ----------

I thought about fiddling with the dizzy today until I noticed my leak.but I need to get the wiring diagram back out for my btm.I may have to unhook the trigger wire now that it plugs into the dizzy.but on the plus side I know have a msd app for my iPad.it has install instruction,schematics,tips,etc for all msd products.it even has an option tab under each product to find the nearest retailer.its pretty cool. Note: that is just me hinting you towards the smart phone again. Haha
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:24 PM   #297
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Re: what it takes...

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ok how does it hook to the pump shaft.is there another gear on the end of the shaft or does it slide into it?

i already read about the gear alignment on the dizzy.i think it said it needs to be + or - .010 " so i will be careful.

all the non roller cams used the cast gear.the roller cams used steel gear.i read that if u dont use the right gear the stronger one will ruin the other.but i also did read that if one gear is bronze it can be used with either.so best case scenario is that i have a bronze gear on the cam. i should be able to see that right?

i tried to adjust the reg all over the place.i also didnt let it run to long because of the leak.so first ill fix that and go from there.
The distributor shaft slips over the pump shaft. The pump shaft and the inside of the distributor shaft are hex shaped and slide together. Be sure the pump shaft does not come up when you pull the old distributor and fall into the pan. Make sure it is there before you install the new distributor. There should be a clip to keep it from doing that, but sometimes people leave them off or they break. That's one reason I run magnetic pan plugs and a magnet on the bottom of my oil pan sumps and sides of my oil filters it's a JIC thing.


I much prefer the special steel gear that Ford uses on their factory distributors for the roller cams to the bronze gears. The bronze gears always wear and the steel ones do not. Metal of any kind in my oil pan makes me nervous. I think MSD can supply a steel gear for roller cams if you need one.


Most regulators will increase pressure if you turn the adjuster in or down.
Not sure about yours, but that is the norm.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:41 PM   #298
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thanx again for the almost nightly advice.lol.just alot going on im my garage.i just wish it would finish it self up so i dont have to mess with it anymore.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:09 AM   #299
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Re: what it takes...

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thanx again for the almost nightly advice.lol.just alot going on im my garage.i just wish it would finish it self up so i dont have to mess with it anymore.
No problem.
It does get to be a chore sometimes. I just take a day or to off when that happens and let the interest and desire build back up.
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:00 PM   #300
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I just so happened to have the right fittings at work for the regulator.and I'm gonna experiment a little, well after I fix the leak first.

What I'm gonna do is put a valve on the return line so I can control the flow of the return.I am doing this because I have a hunch the return is causing the low pressure issue.I don't really feel like playing with a bunch of different configurations so this seem the easiest and most controlable.I haven't really heard of anyone doing this, but I'm gonna try.first before I install the valve I'm going to kink the return.this might give me an idea if it will work or not.
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Old 03-08-2012, 10:40 PM   #301
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also another reason why im not positive its the pump is beacause it only 2 psi,it still doesnt drop at all at wot.i just went out there and kinked the return and the pressure jump up to 6 psi.so the valve might work.keep your fingers crossed
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:57 AM   #302
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Re: what it takes...

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I just so happened to have the right fittings at work for the regulator.and I'm gonna experiment a little, well after I fix the leak first.

What I'm gonna do is put a valve on the return line so I can control the flow of the return.I am doing this because I have a hunch the return is causing the low pressure issue.I don't really feel like playing with a bunch of different configurations so this seem the easiest and most controlable.I haven't really heard of anyone doing this, but I'm gonna try.first before I install the valve I'm going to kink the return.this might give me an idea if it will work or not.
Note: That valve may not really be suitable for use on gasoline.
It appears to be a wedge cored valve used on very low pressure gas and air lines.
A small ball valve would be a much better choice.


You should be able to adjust the regulator for output pressure and that should cut down on the return flow. The valve should not be necessary.
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:25 AM   #303
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I don't think it should be necessary either.but I tried adjusting the reg all over the place.with no results.I'm not sure if that particular reg shouldnt be used for the return or what.but the way its setup adjusting the reg does pretty much nothing.
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:57 AM   #304
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Re: what it takes...

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I don't think it should be necessary either.but I tried adjusting the reg all over the place.with no results.I'm not sure if that particular reg shouldnt be used for the return or what.but the way its setup adjusting the reg does pretty much nothing.
Ok, Let's start over and review your fuel system parts. If you want to that is?


Pump(s) type, brands and models?
Regulator brand and model?


Some thoughts:
You may not even need a regulator or the bypass with the pump you have.
The regulator may be designed for a larger/smaller more powerful/weaker pump or different flow rate.
The regulator my be damaged or faulty from the manufacturer.
The pump(s) may not be capable of supplying enough fuel at a high enough pressure to need regulation.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:32 AM   #305
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Ok.

The pump is unknown.it is still in the tank.

The regulator is a holley.I can get the part number later if needed but I think I do have it listed earlier in this thread.but it comes in a combo pack with the Holley blue pump.I do have the pump,but I wasn't gonna install it if it wasn't necessary.but if it is necessary I Will install.

The other red flag is that the directions for the regulator say the 2 out ports are for 2 carbs.I am using one of those ports for the return and I'm not sure if that's right.

---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------

Also I have a new stock filter in the back.and a new Russel filter up front with 3/8 line
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:57 AM   #306
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Re: what it takes...

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Ok.

The pump is unknown.it is still in the tank.

The regulator is a holley.I can get the part number later if needed but I think I do have it listed earlier in this thread.but it comes in a combo pack with the Holley blue pump.I do have the pump,but I wasn't gonna install it if it wasn't necessary.but if it is necessary I Will install.

The other red flag is that the directions for the regulator say the 2 out ports are for 2 carbs.I am using one of those ports for the return and I'm not sure if that's right.

---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------

Also I have a new stock filter in the back.and a new Russel filter up front with 3/8 line
Aha! You will have to plug off that other carb port.
That's why it won't build any pressure, it's free flowing straight back through the return line.
Does the regulator have a dedicated return/bypass port?
Is the pump in the tank a regular EFI pump or was it changed out to a carb pump?


Your best bet may be to just do away with the in tank pump and convert the holder to a pickup tube for the Holley external pump.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:05 AM   #307
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See I'm not sure about the pump because.with the old setup I didn't have a regulator and it ran great.now granted I don't know what the pressure was.but if it was an efi pump I would have to much pressure right?not lack of?

There is no dedicated return port on the regulator.that's were I had I had time figuring out how to hook up a return.

Do you think I may try running no return as long as I can get the pressure right?or is this a bad idea?

Also is there a better way to route the return than off the secondary out port?
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:23 AM   #308
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Re: what it takes...

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See I'm not sure about the pump because.with the old setup I didn't have a regulator and it ran great.now granted I don't know what the pressure was.but if it was an efi pump I would have to much pressure right?not lack of?

There is no dedicated return port on the regulator.that's were I had I had time figuring out how to hook up a return.

Do you think I may try running no return as long as I can get the pressure right?or is this a bad idea?

Also is there a better way to route the return than off the secondary out port?
It must be a carbed in tank pump. If it was an EFI it would have forced fuel past the needle and seat with the higher pressure and filled your cylinders with gasoline. I saw that happen once after I warned the person it would happen.


A lot of carb pumps may not require a regulator. They will just stall out once they reach a certain pressure. You only really need a regulator if the pressure goes past what your needles and seats will hold which is usually 5-8 psi on a carb.


Yes, try not running a return.
The only better way to route the return is off of a regulator that is designed for a return.


I suppose you could use a ball valve and pinch down the flow coming out of the second carb port on the regulator you have to set the pressure, but that's not really the proper way to do it and could result in heating the fuel in the tank too much and causing vapor lock problems.
OR if the flow is not too substantial it could also serve to keep cooler fuel up to the carb which would be beneficial. Hard telling which way that would go though.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:01 PM   #309
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Yeah pump thing has me thrown off because intank carb pumps are pretty rare.but according to the pressure I'm getting that's got to be what I got.

I had the reg for the s/c install I was planning.so even if I don't need it I could still use it to fine tune? I would have to plug the extra port if I decided no return which I Will try first.

I Will also try bypassing the reg and see what happens.

This advice helps a lot.glad we talked again.one way or another I'm gonna get my 6-7 psi.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:49 AM   #310
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Very disappointed.the gear on the msd and the stock dizzy are different inside diameter.now I have to wait till payday and but another gear.this is kinda bs.

Do u think its ok to machine a bushing.the stock gear is the larger of the 2.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:54 AM   #311
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Re: what it takes...

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Very disappointed.the gear on the msd and the stock dizzy are different inside diameter.now I have to wait till payday and but another gear.this is kinda bs.

Do u think its ok to machine a bushing.the stock gear is the larger of the 2.

I don't know why not as long as you can get it true.
I'd go for a interference fit of a thousandth or two.
Chill it in the freezer to install.

Strange, I figured the MSD shaft would be larger.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:58 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse


I don't know why not as long as you can get it true.
I'd go for a interference fit of a thousandth or two.
Chill it in the freezer to install.

Strange, I figured the MSD shaft would be larger.
I would think it would be larger to.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:44 PM   #313
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ok i made a bushing at work.it was a nice fit.

i do have a couple concerns: first it was a tight fit(which is good) but i had to heat it to get it on.so i was hoping i didnt mess up any temper if there is any is the gear.second our small machines at work are pretty terrible.we mostly do big stuff.so im not positive it is perfect.so do you think i can install it and maybe put something on the gears to check mesh?kinda like when doing rear gears.i dont have any compund handy but any good substitute like just some paint stick on it.then after i do this maybe turn the motor over by hand a couple times to see.anything else i should look for to make sure its all good?

also i extended the wires on the small harness.it comes with a 6" harness on it.like that will reach my ignition box.lol.they have a part number for an extension.but screw them.when i buy a distributor i was under the impression i cold slap it in.they want u to buy harnesses and new gears,well 2 middle fingers to them cause i didnt buy chit.

i plan on installing tomorow.i am also gonna tend to the fuel issue and put it the new/used starter.i did paint the starter while i had it off.well thats where im at.let me kow what u think.
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:08 PM   #314
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Re: what it takes...

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ok i made a bushing at work.it was a nice fit.

i do have a couple concerns: first it was a tight fit(which is good) but i had to heat it to get it on.so i was hoping i didnt mess up any temper if there is any is the gear.second our small machines at work are pretty terrible.we mostly do big stuff.so im not positive it is perfect.so do you think i can install it and maybe put something on the gears to check mesh?kinda like when doing rear gears.i dont have any compund handy but any good substitute like just some paint stick on it.then after i do this maybe turn the motor over by hand a couple times to see.anything else i should look for to make sure its all good?

also i extended the wires on the small harness.it comes with a 6" harness on it.like that will reach my ignition box.lol.they have a part number for an extension.but screw them.when i buy a distributor i was under the impression i cold slap it in.they want u to buy harnesses and new gears,well 2 middle fingers to them cause i didnt buy chit.

i plan on installing tomorow.i am also gonna tend to the fuel issue and put it the new/used starter.i did paint the starter while i had it off.well thats where im at.let me kow what u think.
Checking the gear mesh is a good idea.
Paint marker should work ok.
Just look for contact in the center of the teeth like on rear end gears.


Yeah they set you up to buy more parts quite frequently.
Being a packrat, I have lots of leftover MSD stuff to choose from though.
My cousin is a hardcore drag/mud racer and whenever he'd change out anything I scavenged what he tossed out.


As long as you use a good center indent crimping tool or even a flat crimper and solder the connections too you should be ok there. I always solder my connections as I have had too many problems with crimped ones over the years and they are a pain to locate after the fact.
Trojan Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 10:12 PM   #315
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yes i soldered all the connections and used shrink tube.and also used same gauge wire.

cool.hopefuly tommorow i can get it fired back up.and running right.

---------- Post added at 10:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 PM ----------

i wish i had a msd junk box
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