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Old 05-13-2012, 05:17 PM   #1
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Fuel Supply Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse View Post
My .02

Edelbrock RPM intake upgrade to RPM II intake?
Yes, possible 10-20 HP over the standard Edelbrock and you may be able to replace just the upper. Not 100% sure, you'll have to check.


1.6 rocker arms to 1.7 rocker arms.
No, I don't believe the gains are worth the additional stress on the valvetrain.

24lb injectors to 39lb injectors w/MAF (P.S. Corrected that for you.)
24 to 30's, Yes, According to This Page you are close the the limit at 80% duty cycle.
More information Here.

BBK shorties to long-tube headers.
Yes, There is an additional 10-20 HP to be gained with the swap.
ok, im late to this thread.

so i just read the injector/hp article. looks like this article is the cause of all our debates...lmao.

i seriously think that table needs some revision. however, it does help me to understand your point of view better in our debates and y u needed so much proof for my stand point.

i will say that i think its a bit misleading to a novice tuner, especialy where boost is concerned.

not tryn to thread jack, just my .02 cents in reference to your .02

and to the original poster... i think you will need a tune to run 30's. especialy if your staying under 6250rpm shift points. im super blown away by his recomendation for the amount of motor u have. but then again, im not a pro-tuner nor do i own a speed/dyno shop

i run 30's with 11psi of boost, e-cam, 1.7rr, and stock pcm, and low fp setting , but im sure your tuner thinks ppl like me are crazy.
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:03 PM   #2
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Re: Upgrading my upgrades!!!

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Originally Posted by svtlx View Post
ok, im late to this thread.

so i just read the injector/hp article. looks like this article is the cause of all our debates...lmao.

i seriously think that table needs some revision. however, it does help me to understand your point of view better in our debates and y u needed so much proof for my stand point.

i will say that i think its a bit misleading to a novice tuner, especialy where boost is concerned.

not tryn to thread jack, just my .02 cents in reference to your .02
Yeah, this article and several more just like it are exactly the cause.
Did you check out the other link with the Ford Racing, "Properly Sizing Fuel System Components" PDF file? They use a 90% duty cycle and it says the 30 lb injectors are only good for up to 330 HP on a SC engine. It's the stuff directly from Ford that makes it hard for me to understand how you can get by with what you are running and not lean out and burn up your engine. I can see errors happening from anyone else's info, but Ford Racing of all people should be correct.


But hey, you think outside the norm and I admire that and your results.
That and debating with you is fun and sometimes I actually learn something new.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:18 AM   #3
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Re: Upgrading my upgrades!!!

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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse View Post
Yeah, this article and several more just like it are exactly the cause.
Did you check out the other link with the Ford Racing, "Properly Sizing Fuel System Components" PDF file? They use a 90% duty cycle and it says the 30 lb injectors are only good for up to 330 HP on a SC engine. It's the stuff directly from Ford that makes it hard for me to understand how you can get by with what you are running and not lean out and burn up your engine. I can see errors happening from anyone else's info, but Ford Racing of all people should be correct.


But hey, you think outside the norm and I admire that and your results.
That and debating with you is fun and sometimes I actually learn something new.
thanks, but im not really thinkn outside the norm. i hate for ppl to think my stang is some "automotive freak of nature".

saleen...s351 (s/c pushrod 351)
5.0 magazine
5 liter ford dyno test...by richard holdner

are all examples of builders, and other sources of lotsa ppl making 400 to 460rwp on 30lbs injectors... and most of them on stock pcm's and most without methanol. not to mention the ppl making 350 to 410 with 24lbs inj. you read the article yourself of the guy making 419rwp on 24lbs injectors

my point is this... i learned how to tune from other ppl, not sum black magic tuning i personally invented. im not think'n outside the box
(thanks for the compliment though). ive showed lotsa examples of ppl and reputable publications proving my point, then along comes your injector charts.

in my opnion the injector charts hold true for "modular motors" with returnless fuel systems. not for pushrod motors.. the tuning and fuel requirments are two different worlds for the two power plants.

as for my stand point on pushrod motors... like i said, i learned how to tune from other pushrod n/a and forced induction guys, as well as the publications and others mentioned above.

so basicly ford racing is sayin saleen, 5.0 magazine, 5.0 ford dyno test, other publications, and myself are liars. and we cant do wut we said we did with their equipment.

ppl read the charts, then read my post..... and it makes me look like a liar

the shyte pisses me off....
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:07 AM   #4
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Re: Upgrading my upgrades!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by svtlx View Post
thanks, but im not really thinkn outside the norm. i hate for ppl to think my stang is some "automotive freak of nature".

saleen...s351 (s/c pushrod 351)
5.0 magazine
5 liter ford dyno test...by richard holdner

are all examples of builders, and other sources of lotsa ppl making 400 to 460rwp on 30lbs injectors... and most of them on stock pcm's and most without methanol. not to mention the ppl making 350 to 410 with 24lbs inj. you read the article yourself of the guy making 419rwp on 24lbs injectors

my point is this... i learned how to tune from other ppl, not sum black magic tuning i personally invented. im not think'n outside the box
(thanks for the compliment though). ive showed lotsa examples of ppl and reputable publications proving my point, then along comes your injector charts.

in my opnion the injector charts hold true for "modular motors" with returnless fuel systems. not for pushrod motors.. the tuning and fuel requirments are two different worlds for the two power plants.

as for my stand point on pushrod motors... like i said, i learned how to tune from other pushrod n/a and forced induction guys, as well as the publications and others mentioned above.

so basicly ford racing is sayin saleen, 5.0 magazine, 5.0 ford dyno test, other publications, and myself are liars. and we cant do wut we said we did with their equipment.

ppl read the charts, then read my post..... and it makes me look like a liar

the shyte pisses me off....
I don't think it makes you look like a liar. Not to me anyways.
To me, you (and some others) have managed to do something that the "experts" say is not possible or is dangerous to your engine. I am impressed by that and try my hardest to understand how it is accomplished.


Where I run into problems being able to understand it is in the math I suppose.
It takes ??? lbs. (weight) of fuel to make ??? amount of horsepower.
That factor is pretty much without exception, as only so much power can be extracted from a given amount of fuel. The amount of fuel supplied is governed by the injector's flow capabilities. So you can see where I have problems understanding how it is possible?


When you go beyond what is supposed to be the physical limits of the amount of fuel supplied, it scrambles my my thought process trying to figure out how it is possible.


However, reading the information over and over it begins to sink in that the charts are usually designed to show "safe" amounts of fuel delivery and a safety factor has been incorporated into the choices shown. Plus, some engines are much more efficient than others and you "can" run injectors at 100% duty cycle without adverse effects to the injectors.


Therefore - 30 x 8 x 1.0 / .55 = 436 HP
That is Injector size (30 lb) multiplied by the number of cylinders (8), multiplied by the duty cycle (100% or 1.0) divided by the BSFC (.55) average for a centrifugally supercharged engine.
When you do the same injector size, but bring the duty cycle down to a "safer" level you get.
30 x 8 x .80 /.55 = 349 HP.
Those figures are for "average" efficiency engines. A more efficient engine with a lower BSFC will produce even more HP with the 24 & 30 lb injectors.


This is why they figure the injectors with a built in safety factor:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford Racing
The problem is if the weather gets cooler, or the barometric pressure increases, the air will be denser, and therefore, the engine will receive more air than it normally would. Under these circumstances, the engine will also make more power than it normally would, and the 19 lb injectors may no longer flow enough. This is why it is generally recommended to not exceed an 80% to 90% duty cycle on the fuel injector. This will allow some ‘cushion’ to compensate for variables such as weather.

Now that I have been able to puzzle out "how" & "why" it is possible, I can understand how you and others have achieved your results.

P.S. I moved our discussion to its own thread as we were "taking over" the original.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:19 AM   #5
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TH your are a mustang GOD!!
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:27 AM   #6
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Hey Trojan. I am not really qualified to be in this conversation . Lol but I think the reason svtlx runs the lower injector at a higher duty cycle is to avoid ecu problems. You 2 build motors completely different and I can't debate for either of you as both know way more than I do. But I think that that is his reasoning. I think in your case with your tuner and tuning capabilities you could get away with a wide range of injector sizes and make it work great. I'll stick with my 670 Holley for now! Lol j/k
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:36 AM   #7
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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TH your are a mustang GOD!!
Thanks, I appreciate that, but I'm not the only knowledgeable, experienced person on the forums.


We have several more guys like svtlx, dreamstang, 93slowstang, and others who know just as much, if not more than I do. We all learn from each other, just like I'm learning from svtlx right now. He's my best "frenemy" on here and he has a devil of a time getting me to understand things at times, but he keeps plugging away at it.


I have also learned things from you and most everyone else on here.
Reading posts about everyone's experiences, problems, etc., keeps me "in the loop" and thinking so my memory and the information contained therein does not just stagnate and become corrupted.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:40 AM   #8
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

TH...

my problem with math equation is this... i run only 30psi of fuel to my injectors. as we all know 35/38-42.5 is standard opersting pressure.

therefore running only 29-30psi on a 30lbs injector has me well below the suggested duty cycle (@ 11psi of boost). this also held true with the second s/c engine i built.

my friends running 12psi of boost on 24's are much closer to the suggested duty cycle range. he has a stock cam, but using higher static compression gt40p heads... still an application that the experts say is impossible.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:41 AM   #9
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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Hey Trojan. I am not really qualified to be in this conversation . Lol but I think the reason svtlx runs the lower injector at a higher duty cycle is to avoid ecu problems. You 2 build motors completely different and I can't debate for either of you as both know way more than I do. But I think that that is his reasoning. I think in your case with your tuner and tuning capabilities you could get away with a wide range of injector sizes and make it work great. I'll stick with my 670 Holley for now! Lol j/k
Sure you are, just as much as anyone else in the forums.
How many times have you caught me making mistakes?
Several I believe..........


I'm just happy, that I finally got it in my thick head as to how and why it is possible.
Sometimes I "can't see the forest for the trees" and I have to puzzle it out for myself.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:50 AM   #10
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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TH...

my problem with math equation is this... i run only 30psi of fuel to my injectors. as we all know 35/38-42.5 is standard opersting pressure.

therefore running only 29-30psi on a 30lbs injector has me well below the suggested duty cycle (@ 11psi of boost). this also held true with the second s/c engine i built.

my friends running 12psi of boost on 24's are much closer to the suggested duty cycle range. he has a stock cam, but using higher static compression gt40p heads... still an application that the experts say is impossible.
Ok, now you have thrown me a curve ball and I'm going to have to figure out how the 10 psi less pressure (Most charts are figured on 40 psi) can supply enough fuel.
I don't think the pressure affects the "duty cycle" as it is just the amount of time an injector is working or "on", other than they may need to be on much longer than normal, but I'll have to research and figure that out that to be 100% sure.


Have you changed anything else in the fuel system? (i.e. larger fuel rails, lines, pumps etc.)

What is your HP?

It may be that your engine efficiency is a lot better than normal too.
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Old 05-14-2012, 11:06 AM   #11
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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Ok, now you have thrown me a curve ball and I'm going to have to figure out how the 10 psi less pressure (Most charts are figured on 40 psi) can supply enough fuel.
I don't think the pressure affects the "duty cycle" as it is just the amount of time an injector is working or "on", other than they may need to be on much longer than normal, but I'll have to research and figure that out that to be 100% sure.


Have you changed anything else in the fuel system? (i.e. larger fuel rails, lines, pumps etc.)

What is your HP?

It may be that your engine efficiency is a lot better than normal too.
i havent dynoed it yet. but i estimate between 430-450rwp based on other ppl who have identical set-up who have had their car dynoed.

i have larger rails thanks to bbk's ssi intake. but i ran the same pressure with my typhoon on stock rails. and to my knowledge, stock rails are good up to 460-500 depending on application... real world, not publication.

o, and i run a 255lph pump...always. running outa fuel is not an option when it only cost a few bucks more than a 190lph pump.

i dont think my motor is more efficient. i buy my plain "mahle rings" and bearings. no file to fit stuff.

again.... im not settn the world on fire with sum new way of tuning. i built my car according to other ppls set-up. i mean identical, cause i wasnt tryn to "re-invent the wheel". i built according to wut sum other ppl had so i knew it worked and was reliable.. i had no desire to tune my car to within an inch of its life.

the guy i showed u in 5.0 mag that makes 419rwp on 24's is almost identical to my set-up. only difference is i used 30lbs injectors instead of 24's... and i use a bbk ssi intake instead of an edelbrock. o, and i dont use an fmu. but we have same cam, rockers, blower, and pretty much everything else.

anyway, there's nothing special about my motor. even in "5.0 ford dyno test" by richard holdner... there's guys making 445rwp (on boost) on 30lbs injectors on standard stroke 302. im not the xception to the rule, and my car is actually pretty conservative in terms of timing and injector size for the amount of boost i run. i have friends running higher boost and 24-26lbs injectors, and way more agressive timing.

there r guys in 5.0 mag running 18 degrees of advance on 15psi of boost with only 3 degrees retatrd on their msd btm.

thats y im so blown away by ppls response to my set-up.


like i said, my motor is pretty low budget stock.

as far as duty cycle... the fuel pressure definatley helps determine the duty cycle. generaly, the more fp u run will help reduce the injectors duty cycle (in most applications). unless you run more than 50psi, at that point you may actualy hurt the cycle by putting excessive pressure on the (injector)spring, making it harder for the injector to open and close efficiently.
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Old 05-14-2012, 11:25 AM   #12
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This is where I get confused. Not in your setup. But is 190@35 psi and 255@35 psi the same? If your running same lines with both then 35 psi is 35 psi right.

The 3 degree regard on the btm is 3 per pound of boost if they were talking about the dial set at 3.

I think you are getting a little worked up svt. There are different ways to setup a fuel system and as there maybe lots of setups similar to yours , there are also lots of setups with large injectors. I am not questiong your skills one bit, because they are great. Me personally am just trying to learn from you and Trojans debates.
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Old 05-14-2012, 11:39 AM   #13
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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This is where I get confused. Not in your setup. But is 190@35 psi and 255@35 psi the same? If your running same lines with both then 35 psi is 35 psi right.

The 3 degree regard on the btm is 3 per pound of boost if they were talking about the dial set at 3.

I think you are getting a little worked up svt. There are different ways to setup a fuel system and as there maybe lots of setups similar to yours , there are also lots of setups with large injectors. I am not questiong your skills one bit, because they are great. Me personally am just trying to learn from you and Trojans debates.
yea, the pressure is the same between the two pumps. the size of the pump kinda dictates if and how much fuel gets sucked outa the lines. forced induction has a way of draining the lines real quick. the reason why cobras have 2 pumps instead of one. the larger pump just insures u wont drain the lines dry when u stomp on it. cause u will melt pistons if it does drain them, thats a promise.

also, the debate isnt necessarily bout set-ups... more over me and trojans long time debate over horsepower ratings for a givien injector size. there are publications as wel as myself with ppl making 400-460 on 30pound injectors... trojans injector chart says 30lbs injectors max out at i believe 336.

thats the debate... the set-up portion of this debate just helps with the scenarios we r using as examples for our agument.

trojan still cant believe u cant net that much rwp from 30lbs inj.
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Old 05-14-2012, 11:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svtlx

yea, the pressure is the same between the two pumps. the size of the pump kinda dictates if and how much fuel gets sucked outa the lines. forced induction has a way of draining the lines real quick. the reason why cobras have 2 pumps instead of one. the larger pump just insures u wont drain the lines dry when u stomp on it. cause u will melt pistons if it does drain them, thats a promise.

also, the debate isnt necessarily bout set-ups... more over me and trojans long time debate over horsepower ratings for a givien injector size. there are publications as wel as myself with ppl making 400-460 on 30pound injectors... trojans injector chart says 30lbs injectors max out at i believe 336.

thats the debate... the set-up portion of this debate just helps with the scenarios we r using as examples for our agument.

trojan still cant believe u cant net that much rwp from 30lbs inj.
Thaw what I figured. It was just weird when I first put my fuel pressure gauge on mine and new carb at the same time. I had a return setup but with an efi pump I was only getting like 1 psi. But it was running good. I ended up having a relay issue and have it taken care of. But it took me forever to get 6psi. I even plugged the return. It was just weird.

I understand your guys debate. One day you guys will figure it out.
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:05 PM   #15
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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Thaw what I figured. It was just weird when I first put my fuel pressure gauge on mine and new carb at the same time. I had a return setup but with an efi pump I was only getting like 1 psi. But it was running good. I ended up having a relay issue and have it taken care of. But it took me forever to get 6psi. I even plugged the return. It was just weird.

I understand your guys debate. One day you guys will figure it out.
well thats the problem and the cause of the debate... we both think we have it figured out....lmao
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:31 PM   #16
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well thats the problem and the cause of the debate... we both think we have it figured out....lmao
Lmao. I think u both do.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

Thanks, I appreciate that, but I'm not the only knowledgeable, experienced person on the forums.

We have several more guys like svtlx, dreamstang, 93slowstang, and others who know just as much, if not more than I do. We all learn from each other, just like I'm learning from svtlx right now. He's my best "frenemy" on here and he has a devil of a time getting me to understand things at times, but he keeps plugging away at it.

I have also learned things from you and most everyone else on here.
Reading posts about everyone's experiences, problems, etc., keeps me "in the loop" and thinking so my memory and the information contained therein does not just stagnate and become corrupted.
It's not only that.. You guys are very well spoken and say things that tons of us think, just the words dont come out.. I hope being on these forums further educates me and I can include myself in the debates soon!!
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:58 AM   #18
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

Ok, I have been thinking and researching.

I think we can both agree that as it says in the Ford racing document it takes a certain "weight" (pounds) of fuel to produce a certain amount of HP.


I used the middle of your HP estimate for your car and 30 lb injectors at 30 psi fuel pressure.
Then I ran the figures through several calculators to see if they all were reasonably close in their statements of fuel required for a chosen amount of HP. They were all very close.


Here are the results:
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:08 AM   #19
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

Per my previous post you will notice that to produce the HP estimated using 30 lb injectors at 30 psi of pressure, the calculator shows that your engine will have to be very efficient at .36 BSFC or the injectors would have to be at a 133% duty cycle to supply a sufficient amount of fuel.

Therein lies my confusion at how your engine (or any of the others for that matter) can survive with those injectors at that fuel pressure, when all of the evidence and research says that it will not.


I am now at the point now that having researched and computed to the best of my abilities and still failing to understand how it is possible, I think I will contact Ford engine engineers and pose the question to them. Maybe they can shed some light on how it is possible.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:12 AM   #20
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Wow this is so far above my skill level but I love it!!!
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:30 AM   #21
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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Wow this is so far above my skill level but I love it!!!
Your skills will get there eventually.
Your interest and attention will pay off as you will retain knowledge from everything you read about and do to your own car.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:31 AM   #22
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

sorry, i was tied up with work. im not sure if i will b interested in wut ford racing has to say or not. i think it will b more of "no %#$^ way!" with them. or they will say i im on the verge of kill'n injectors or meltn pistons.

im content with the fact that there are two different sciences here. i will stick the blower back on my car in a couple of weeks or so. at which point i will have my car dynoed. 419 is the least i think it will make, 450 is the most.

idk wut the dyno sheet will do for the debate, but we will have first hand knowledge of the results of 30lbs injectors on a standard stroke 302 with stock heads, valves, and pistons with 11psi of boost.

if it makes 450 it will prolly confuse you even more trojan...lmao!!!

you need to get "5.0l ford dyno test" by richard holdner. its super informative, as well as couple cars with my set-up making 450rwp with 30's.

also, i tried to run 24's on my motor. even at 50+psi, it only gave enough fuel to idle and i think up to maybe 2500rpm.. then it started ping'n. ran outa fuel really bad, maxed out the fuel pressure regulator, still not enough fuel. "venom 26lbs inj." yielded the same result.

in my infinate wisdom, i thought 42's were the way to go... not!!! ... it was like dumpn fuel in by the shot glass. 9psi of boost, then 12psi of boost... still waaay too much fuel.

went to 30lbs inj. and voila!!! set the fpr to 35-38 and it was a bit too much. set the fpr for minimum 29-30psi and the throttle response was crispy and idled good. can break the tires loose and go sideways at 50mph

i used a ford 70ml mass air meter (rare factory piece lol) and a pro-m 75ml calibrated for 30's.

i thought i would throw that in there so u could see sum of my tuning logic. timing set at 10degress base.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:35 PM   #23
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

When you dyno I'd love to see what your A/F ratio is doing across the RPM range if possible?

Since you don't trust the Ford Engineers, I will also contact Richard Holdener, AND I ordered the book!

Cain't ever have to much info!

What are you using to richen the mixture as the boost goes up?
And, do you have anything to pull timing as the boost climbs?
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:32 PM   #24
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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When you dyno I'd love to see what your A/F ratio is doing across the RPM range if possible?

Since you don't trust the Ford Engineers, I will also contact Richard Holdener, AND I ordered the book!

Cain't ever have to much info!

What are you using to richen the mixture as the boost goes up?
And, do you have anything to pull timing as the boost climbs?
fmu's are for when you are running an injector too small for the application. most of the ppl i know removed them when they got the correct size injector. they can really effe stuff up if your new to blower tuning.

i have a btm box, but i dont run it. i run under 15psi (less than a full atmoshere) and i have stock heads (large cumbustion chamber) and run low base timing. set at 10 degrees. also, the computer has an easier time of managing things like idle, a/r, and cold starts with the stock timing.

i made lots of phone calls to powerdyne when setting up my car. so deleting the fmu and btm box arent ideas i just pulled outa thin air. and regardless of wut anyone says... ive never burnt a piston or valve. so now i got 3 fmu's and a btm box waiting on my 351 big boost project..lol.


the questions you are askn is the same "understanding" i had of how to set up a boosted car when i first got into forced induction. not saying your "understanding" is incorrect, but the more you learn about boosted cars, the more you learn there's more than one way to skin a cat.

and more importantly, when it comes to btm boxes and fmu's... there's things the industry (blower manufacturers) put in kits to reduce the number of ppl meltn pistons.. mainly cause there are enough misconceptions bout boost, and fear of forced induction.

im not sayn everyone should delete their fmu or btm box. but if you have a good understanding of static compression ratios you can do alot with wut ford gave you.

the low compression e7 heads is wut enables me to have my set-up with no btm box. so i ported the heads, save sum money, and blow the doors off of ppl with shiney aluminum heads and knock on the doors of stroker guys (blow sum of their doors off too)
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:42 PM   #25
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Yeah those are some badass numbers for the e7's.. Just that extra weight really sucks. So do you plan on upgrading the heads one day? Or are you just waiting on the 351?
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:06 PM   #26
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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Yeah those are some badass numbers for the e7's.. Just that extra weight really sucks. So do you plan on upgrading the heads one day? Or are you just waiting on the 351?
i know it sounds crazy... but i try to stay with all ford components. my powerdyne blower was once in the frpp catalogue licenesed to ford racing and b&m.

i run alphabet cam..and i used to run a lightening mass air meter til i got a seet *** deal on a pro-m that blew my ford mass air out the water. and i run ford supercoupe injectors. the only thing that doesnt say ford is the intake, only cause ford intakes are super restrictive... o, and the exhaust of course

so no, im not upgrading the heads. if its not a severe performance henderence, i run ford components.

ive done wut most ppl told me couldnt be done with stock block, heads, and bottom end. make 400+ hp reliably on almost all stock ford stuff.

when i was a kid, i would hang out with the chevy guys. i'd say where u goin? they'd say , "we're goin to the junk yard, we're goin to build a race car". and these guys would build tire scorch'n low e.t. cars for the low low. lotsa krylon paint to make the junk yard stuff look new lol.

anyway, it kinda stuck with me. so im doin the 351 so i can be in the 500 hp on all stock ford stuff. check out the (i think 96 or 97) saleen s351 s/c.. basicly supercharged 500hp truck motor dumped into a sn95 car. a really simple recipe for awesomeness, the specs are sooo simple.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:11 PM   #27
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

I sold the FMU & 190 lph fuel pump shortly after buying the Paxton kit per their recommendation since I intend to go past the base boost and power range.
My fuel & timing will be handled by the PMS as will the low idle and starting with the 60 lb injectors. Fuel supply will be handled by a 340 lph in tank pump along with a T-Rex external pump and 1/2" I.D. fuel rails. With the PMS I can control each cylinder individually if I need to.


Like I've said before, most of my "set up" has been put together with advice and recommendations from Paxton and Anderson Ford Motorsports to try and help my stock block live at 600 or more FWHP. Therefore, my combination is based off of components that are known to them and they (AFM) have proved that they work together on the Dyno and in the field.


For me your combination represents an "unknown" and I am just trying to understand how it can work, when almost everything I have read and seen says it will not supply enough fuel, but evidently it can.


I look forward to seeing your dyno sheet and hopefully some A/F ratio information.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:22 PM   #28
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Your a nut lol.., but if that's your style I dig it!!

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

why not get some GT40's if it's about keeping ford products with your knowledge an some port work you could make them flow great
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:31 PM   #29
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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Your a nut lol.., but if that's your style I dig it!!
dont get me wrong, i know a nice set of aluminum heads with sum big valves would be very rewarding... and all that stock stuff holds me back a bit. i just like being able to say itsa stock motor lol

---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse View Post
I sold the FMU & 190 lph fuel pump shortly after buying the Paxton kit per their recommendation since I intend to go past the base boost and power range.
My fuel & timing will be handled by the PMS as will the low idle and starting with the 60 lb injectors. Fuel supply will be handled by a 340 lph in tank pump along with a T-Rex external pump and 1/2" I.D. fuel rails. With the PMS I can control each cylinder individually if I need to.


Like I've said before, most of my "set up" has been put together with advice and recommendations from Paxton and Anderson Ford Motorsports to try and help my stock block live at 600 or more FWHP. Therefore, my combination is based off of components that are known to them and they (AFM) have proved that they work together on the Dyno and in the field.


For me your combination represents an "unknown" and I am just trying to understand how it can work, when almost everything I have read and seen says it will not supply enough fuel, but evidently it can.


I look forward to seeing your dyno sheet and hopefully some A/F ratio information.
lmao...its only unknown to you. like i said, i have friends with similar set-ups..and im on the conservative end of the spectrum. maybe when u get that book it will shed sum light on stuff for you. i wish i could help u wrap ur mind around it. all i can say is that im not a trend setter or innovator, i learned from other ppl. so it works.

im sure the vendors u talk to prolly said "its just a matter of time before he blows his motor". but i havent blown it, nor have my friends.

but u yourself said it best a long time ago, ppl tryn to sell u stuff may give u different advice than ppl that arent tryn to sell u stuff
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:31 PM   #30
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imo its not really about what you do with a stock motor. its about what you can do. im not saying anything about what you have done. but just about what you could do. like 90gt said, even gt40s would do you a world of good. and even some turbo swirls or whatever they are called. still ford racing. but over 400 whp is still great. but why stop there?
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:42 PM   #31
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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dont get me wrong, i know a nice set of aluminum heads with sum big valves would be very rewarding... and all that stock stuff holds me back a bit. i just like being able to say itsa stock motor lol

---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

lmao...its only unknown to you. like i said, i have friends with similar set-ups..and im on the conservative end of the spectrum. maybe when u get that book it will shed sum light on stuff for you. i wish i could help u wrap ur mind around it. all i can say is that im not a trend setter or innovator, i learned from other ppl. so it works.

im sure the vendors u talk to prolly said "its just a matter of time before he blows his motor". but i havent blown it, nor have my friends.

but u yourself said it best a long time ago, ppl tryn to sell u stuff may give u different advice than ppl that arent tryn to sell u stuff
I seriously doubt I'm the only one it is "unknown" to. Otherwise most of the owners, tuners and Dyno shops I have read about would be doing it or at least some of them would have tried it. Plus if it were widely known I should have ran across it while researching and buying parts. I have been on the net since the early/mid 90's and supercharging & turbocharging EFI 5.0's has been one of my main interests since then, so I have put in quite a bit of time researching and reading.


Maybe the book will help, it will be here in a few days and I'm a fast reader, so it won't take me long to go through it.


The vendors I have spoken to are mainly AFM & Paxton and I haven't bought anything from Paxton or ever told them I was going to and I bought the PMS before I spoke with AFM asking their advice and recommendations.
Since they have both been in the business for so long and have who knows how many successful builds under their belts, of course I followed their advice for my purposes. Since we have been talking about it and you have pointed out some other people and articles, I intend to contact as many of them as I can to get their perspective too.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:51 PM   #32
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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imo its not really about what you do with a stock motor. its about what you can do. im not saying anything about what you have done. but just about what you could do. like 90gt said, even gt40s would do you a world of good. and even some turbo swirls or whatever they are called. still ford racing. but over 400 whp is still great. but why stop there?
well as far as gt40's.. i can run more boost cause of the lower compression on e7's than gt40's . had sum a while back. my buddy runs gt40p's with an explorer cam and 12 psi of boost. but he will need an intercooler to try to keep climbn the boost ladder with those heads.

i like my set-up cause of the reliability, driveabilty, no tuner ppl or shops involved, and the amount of money i have in it is pretty low for the horse power. i want more power, i just swap a pulley.

but like biggie smalls said... more money, more problems.. with cars... more horse power means more problems.

im pretty content at this point with breakn the tires loose at 50mph.

maybe next year or later i will build something bigger and better.

but under 500hp is ok with me right now. the bigger the hp, the more shyte breaks, the more money.

right now, if i blow up the motor, i can get another bottom end for cheap and swap over my blower. im back in the 400hp club without taking out a small business loan.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:05 PM   #33
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well as far as gt40's.. i can run more boost cause of the lower compression on e7's than gt40's . had sum a while back. my buddy runs gt40p's with an explorer cam and 12 psi of boost. but he will need an intercooler to try to keep climbn the boost ladder with those heads.

i like my set-up cause of the reliability, driveabilty, no tuner ppl or shops involved, and the amount of money i have in it is pretty low for the horse power. i want more power, i just swap a pulley.

but like biggie smalls said... more money, more problems.. with cars... more horse power means more problems.

im pretty content at this point with breakn the tires loose at 50mph.

maybe next year or later i will build something bigger and better.

but under 500hp is ok with me right now. the bigger the hp, the more shyte breaks, the more money.

right now, if i blow up the motor, i can get another bottom end for cheap and swap over my blower. im back in the 400hp club without taking out a small business loan.
i see your point. thats more hp than i make. how long have you been running this setup?

yeah i am at the point where i am gonna be breaking shiz. the only reason i havent because i lack the seat time.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:27 PM   #34
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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I seriously doubt I'm the only one it is "unknown" to. Otherwise most of the owners, tuners and Dyno shops I have read about would be doing it or at least some of them would have tried it. Plus if it were widely known I should have ran across it while researching and buying parts. I have been on the net since the early/mid 90's and supercharging & turbocharging EFI 5.0's has been one of my main interests since then, so I have put in quite a bit of time researching and reading.


Maybe the book will help, it will be here in a few days and I'm a fast reader, so it won't take me long to go through it.


The vendors I have spoken to are mainly AFM & Paxton and I haven't bought anything from Paxton or ever told them I was going to and I bought the PMS before I spoke with AFM asking their advice and recommendations.
Since they have both been in the business for so long and have who knows how many successful builds under their belts, of course I followed their advice for my purposes. Since we have been talking about it and you have pointed out some other people and articles, I intend to contact as many of them as I can to get their perspective too.
i mis-stated a bit when i said "unknown to you". but like u stated, my point was the articles/publications of ppl doin the same thing as me. you have reputable sources sayn its not so. i dont think i could persuade you with any type of info though.

when i showed you the guy in 5.0 mag making 419rwp on 24's... you were quick to point out the guy had methanol injection, and barely drives it.

the guy was just tryn to be safe. but he's not meltn pistons without it, i promise. he's not the first to make low 400's on 24's. our set-ups are similar for a reason.. its text book and it works (reliably).

so in my opinion... even after you read the "5liter dyno test book" you will no dought find lots of reasons to discount the results. the guy making 450rwp on 30's that went to 42's, u will find something wrong there as well.

ive pointed out how many articles and books so far? and no matter wut i show u u seem to act like im making it up or ford racing and anderson motorsport are the only ppl that know how to make fast cars without melting pistons or valves.

i just dont think you can be persuaded. i think your mind was made up long before the debate lol

im not say'n those ppl are wrong, just pointn out that there's more than one way of doing things while yielding the same results. like i said, im not a trend setter, many many other ppl have done it first.

---------- Post added at 10:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 PM ----------

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i see your point. thats more hp than i make. how long have you been running this setup?

yeah i am at the point where i am gonna be breaking shiz. the only reason i havent because i lack the seat time.
i just went from fox to sn95... but i been running it for like 3-4yrs with blower. 58-6200 shift points and never broke anything yet.. not blower related anyway. i popped a valve spring a while back which was catostrophic and killed my gt40p's. but no boost related issues.

very reliable....
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:42 PM   #35
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Re: Fuel Supply Discussion

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i mis-stated a bit when i said "unknown to you". but like u stated, my point was the articles/publications of ppl doin the same thing as me. you have reputable sources sayn its not so. i dont think i could persuade you with any type of info though.

when i showed you the guy in 5.0 mag making 419rwp on 24's... you were quick to point out the guy had methanol injection, and barely drives it.

the guy was just tryn to be safe. but he's not meltn pistons without it, i promise. he's not the first to make low 400's on 24's. our set-ups are similar for a reason.. its text book and it works (reliably).

so in my opinion... even after you read the "5liter dyno test book" you will no dought find lots of reasons to discount the results. the guy making 450rwp on 30's that went to 42's, u will find something wrong there as well.

ive pointed out how many articles and books so far? and no matter wut i show u u seem to act like im making it up or ford racing and anderson motorsport are the only ppl that know how to make fast cars without melting pistons or valves.

i just dont think you can be persuaded. i think your mind was made up long before the debate lol

im not say'n those ppl are wrong, just pointn out that there's more than one way of doing things while yielding the same results. like i said, im not a trend setter, many many other ppl have done it first.
No dude, you misunderstand me.
I do not intend to "act" like you are making it up.
Text is so impersonal and it's very difficult to convey your true meaning.
I believe you are doing exactly what you say you are doing.
I am just trying to understand "how" it is possible when so many other sources say it is not.


I rarely take anything at face value or blindly take anyone's word, I have to prove things to myself. I have a burning "need" to know the inner workings, know exactly how it is accomplished and to figure out how I might best benefit from that knowledge. My mind is not "made up" and on this subject it may never be, but I hate to have a "gaping hole" in my knowledge. That's why I keep asking you for details over and over.


P.S. You are not the only one. When I decided to learn how computers work I drove my next door neighbor (a computer programmer) nuts. He finally moved out and I think to this day it was to get away from me and my thousands of questions.


P.S.S. The guy using methanol injection provided me with an explanation as to "how" his engine could survive on less fuel and why it didn't lean out or detonate itself to pieces. Take that away from it and I'd be willing to bet that a couple of WOT passes would damage his engine.
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