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Old 05-22-2012, 07:38 PM   #1
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400+

Is it possible to get 400+ horsepower with forced induction? I guy I just recently met claims he has a 94 with a built motor pushing alittle over 400 horses. Just wondering that you guys think?
Thanks

---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 PM ----------

Without forced induction....sorry
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:45 PM   #2
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Fwhp (flywheel)or rwhp (rear wheel) ? Either way its possible. But not easy.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:51 PM   #3
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What all would be need to reach 400? Let's say at the flywheel?
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:00 PM   #4
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well the 400 is easier at the flywheel. basically your talking large heads, good intake, and matched cam with all supporting mods including: throttle body, maf, cai, injectors and professionally tuned. you will probably need alot of lift in the cam so its possible you may need flycut pistons. but most good top end kits will net you good hp. the trickflow kit say 360 fwhp. so something like that with working the heads a little bit would get you close.

if you want better detail try to find 400hp crate motors and check out whats in them.

at the wheels you will need even larger heads cam and higher revving intake etc etc. and to transfer the power to wheel better: gears, better tranny, aluminum driveshaft, aluminum flywheel, etc etc.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:02 PM   #5
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Ok thanks, I totally for got about the trick flow kit.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:04 PM   #6
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i dont have the kit, but i do have the heads and i love them.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:14 PM   #7
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Re: 400+

How much are they?
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:16 PM   #8
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just for the heads probaly 11-1200$ for the kit i think is around 2500 give or take.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belpreboss2010
Is it possible to get 400+ horsepower with forced induction? I guy I just recently met claims he has a 94 with a built motor pushing alittle over 400 horses. Just wondering that you guys think?
Thanks

---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 PM ----------

Without forced induction....sorry
My brothers 91 lx has a DSS forged 347 shortblock , AFR 225 heads , SystemMax II intake , big cam, full off-road 3inch exhaust , with custom dyno tune and his car is dynoed at 406 rwhp 408 ft-tq

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by WhiteCobra94

My brothers 91 lx has a DSS forged 347 shortblock , AFR 225 heads , SystemMax II intake , big cam, full off-road 3inch exhaust , with custom dyno tune and his car is dynoed at 406 rwhp 408 ft-tq
And it's all motor no forced induction
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:18 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by WhiteCobra94

My brothers 91 lx has a DSS forged 347 shortblock , AFR 225 heads , SystemMax II intake , big cam, full off-road 3inch exhaust , with custom dyno tune and his car is dynoed at 406 rwhp 408 ft-tq

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------



And it's all motor no forced induction
There you go.

That is great numbers for n/a!
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:20 PM   #11
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Re: 400+

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Originally Posted by belpreboss2010 View Post
What all would be need to reach 400? Let's say at the flywheel?
Mine is 405 FWHP.


306 CI, 9.5:1 compression, Edelbrock RPM heads, X303 cam, Ported Cobra Intake, 24 lb injectors, 65 MM TB, 75 MM MAF, BBK equal length shorty headers, full 2.5" Flowmaster American Thunder exhaust.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:22 PM   #12
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He first dynoed at 396 rwhp and 398 ft-tq with the Anderson PMS but in 5th gear around 6000 RPMs it wasn't pull hard so he ended up taking the PMS out (which is for sale) and had the SCT custom tuned and he dynoed 10 rwhp more!!
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:30 PM   #13
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Re: 400+

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He first dynoed at 396 rwhp and 398 ft-tq with the Anderson PMS but in 5th gear around 6000 RPMs it wasn't pull hard so he ended up taking the PMS out (which is for sale) and had the SCT custom tuned and he dynoed 10 rwhp more!!
Should have kept the PMS. They are way more tunable than any chip, you just have to learn how they work and how to use them.


P.S. Too bad it's not for an SN95, I know someone looking for one.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:38 PM   #14
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Yea idk what goes through his head sometimes,..... Example before this mustang he had a 72 Buick Skylark GS with a Chevy 504 big block with a 400 shot of nitrous 1,140 horse power and he traded straight up for the 91 lx mustang with 406 rwhp!! Crazy

---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

Should have kept the PMS. They are way more tunable than any chip, you just have to learn how they work and how to use them.

P.S. Too bad it's not for an SN95, I know someone looking for one.
Well he's selling it for $375-$425 the PMS for fox body mustangs
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:39 PM   #15
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Re: 400+

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Yea idk what goes through his head sometimes,..... Example before this mustang he had a 72 Buick Skylark GS with a Chevy 504 big block with a 400 shot of nitrous 1,140 horse power and he traded straight up for the 91 lx mustang with 406 rwhp!! Crazy

---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ----------

Well he's selling it for $375-$425 the PMS for fox body mustangs
What series is it (1-4)?

P.S. That GS would have been a good car to hang on to.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

What series is it (1-4)?

P.S. That GS would have been a good car to hang on to.
He said it was made in 2005 so whatever series that one is!

The Buick was a crazy fast car he started it out with a 383 then wanted bigger and bigger lol then went from pump gas to 116 octane then got to the point he couldn't drive it anymore on the street so he tried selling it for months but that's when the economy crashed
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:17 PM   #17
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Re: 400+

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He said it was made in 2005 so whatever series that one is!

The Buick was a crazy fast car he started it out with a 383 then wanted bigger and bigger lol then went from pump gas to 116 octane then got to the point he couldn't drive it anymore on the street so he tried selling it for months but that's when the economy crashed
Probably a 2 or 3 series. Might be hard to sell depending on how much it costs to upgrade.
Have him email me through my profile email and give me any info he can provide, what he'll take and I'll see if I can't help him sell it.


I bet it was crazy fast.
My cousin has a 1400+ HP strip car and it's unbelievable. Makes my nads shrink just standing next to it when it's running.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:37 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belpreboss2010
Is it possible to get 400+ horsepower with forced induction? I guy I just recently met claims he has a 94 with a built motor pushing alittle over 400 horses. Just wondering that you guys think?
Thanks

---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 PM ----------

Without forced induction....sorry
Mine should make around 450 when I get it tuned and I don't have FI. 331 stroker. I may hold off on the tune and get a pms though.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:05 AM   #19
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Why do stroker motors typically have carbs not FI?
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:04 AM   #20
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Re: 400+

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Why do stroker motors typically have carbs not FI?
I really don't know why so many people do that, but when I build my 408 or 427 it will be fuel injected and computer controlled.


I suppose they think a carb will be much simpler to work with, but in reality it is not, or at least that's my opinion.


Example: A computerized fuel injection system will adjust parameters itself for temperature and humidity changes, with a carbed engine you are stuck with changing jets, air bleeds and/or squirters & power valves and reading plugs trying to figure out what is needed to make the engine run its best. That's a lot of work and it's not much fun.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:09 AM   #21
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Re: 400+

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Mine should make around 450 when I get it tuned and I don't have FI. 331 stroker. I may hold off on the tune and get a pms though.
If you are not Fuel Injected and using a computer the PMS will not work for you as the PMS is a "Piggy Back" for the ECU in Fuel Injected cars.


If you are talking about Forced Induction and your car is Fuel Injected and computer controlled then it will work for you and you should contact WhiteCobra94's brother as that is a good price for his PMS.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:34 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

I really don't know why so many people do that, but when I build my 408 or 427 it will be fuel injected and computer controlled.

I suppose they think a carb will be much simpler to work with, but in reality it is not, or at least that's my opinion.

Example: A computerized fuel injection system will adjust parameters itself for temperature and humidity changes, with a carbed engine you are stuck with changing jets, air bleeds and/or squirters & power valves and reading plugs trying to figure out what is needed to make the engine run its best. That's a lot of work and it's not much fun.
I agree mostly. But there are certain reasons that make sense to me. If you get the right size carb and a good one, some of the things listed may not be neccesary. With the right carb sometime they nearly bolt right on.

Also when you do something like a frame off restoration and everything is totally gutted. The actual install is way more involved on a ecu setup.

Also if its a track only car and streetability is not a concern.

But with that said I would never toss an efi setup to go carbed. My conversion on my car was already that way when I bought it. And I am fine with it. I also like the engine bay look.

Whats funny is when people just think they saw a high hp car with a carb, so they should do it.

---------- Post added at 11:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 AM ----------

Oh yeah. The other big reason I think people do it is because is cheaper to do. By time you by throttle body,Cai, injectors, upper and lower intake, etc etc a carb can Blvd cheaper.

Don't take me wrong though Trojan. I completely agree with what you said. But I figured I would give some reasonings why I think people do it.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:36 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

If you are not Fuel Injected and using a computer the PMS will not work for you as the PMS is a "Piggy Back" for the ECU in Fuel Injected cars.

If you are talking about Forced Induction and your car is Fuel Injected and computer controlled then it will work for you and you should contact WhiteCobra94's brother as that is a good price for his PMS.
I meant FI as fuel injected. And that sounds like an amazing price. But did you say something like I would have to update it? I don't know much about these things but they sound alot better then traveling and 2 hours and spending 400 dollars every time I change something on my motor
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:43 AM   #24
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I agree mostly. But there are certain reasons that make sense to me. If you get the right size carb and a good one, some of the things listed may not be neccesary. With the right carb sometime they nearly bolt right on.
Also when you do something like a frame off restoration and everything is totally gutted. The actual install is way more involved on a ecu setup.
Also if its a track only car and streetability is not a concern.
But with that said I would never toss an efi setup to go carbed. My conversion on my car was already that way when I bought it. And I am fine with it. I also like the engine bay look.
Whats funny is when people just think they saw a high hp car with a carb, so they should do it.
Everything dreamstang says is true and I was remiss in not adding those points.
Sorry, sometimes I get a bit lazy.
And it's true that you can get by without some of the things I listed, BUT even if the carb bolts on and seems to run fine, if you hook up a wideband O2 monitor you will find the air/fuel ratio is often less than desirable and it will swing back and forth with temperature and humidity changes much more so than a computer controlled system will.


I'm one of those weird people who will always take the more difficult path just because of the challenges it presents. Most people will not do that.
When EFI first came out I hated it, mainly because I had just spent years learning how to properly tune a carbed engine, but once I purchased an EFI car and got acquainted with the system and how it works a whole new love affair was born and carbs became a thing of the past for me.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:52 AM   #25
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I meant FI as fuel injected. And that sounds like an amazing price. But did you say something like I would have to update it? I don't know much about these things but they sound alot better then traveling and 2 hours and spending 400 dollars every time I change something on my motor
You wouldn't "have to" update it, but it would be beneficial to do so.
Go to Anderson Ford Motorsport's website and see what it would take to upgrade it to a Series 4.


Understand that there will be a learning curve in using it and it will take some time to understand and become comfortable using it.


I purchased mine for just the reason you stated above. I feel that with some experience and the addition of a wideband O2 monitor or gauge I will be able to tune my own engine just as good as any Dyno shop could. I may not achieve the total HP they could, having no way to monitor that, but my engine will be operating in the safest parameters I can set for it in the PMS. Plus if I learn how to properly use the PMS, if I ever do get to a Dyno I will know myself what changes that might need to be made and exactly how they will affect my engine tune. So go for it!
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:53 AM   #26
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Everything dreamstang says is true and I was remiss in not adding those points.
Sorry, sometimes I get a bit lazy.
And it's true that you can get by without some of the things I listed, BUT even if the carb bolts on and seems to run fine, if you hook up a wideband O2 monitor you will find the air/fuel ratio is often less than desirable and it will swing back and forth with temperature and humidity changes much more so than a computer controlled system will.

I'm one of those weird people who will always take the more difficult path just because of the challenges it presents. Most people will not do that.
When EFI first came out I hated it, mainly because I had just spent years learning how to properly tune a carbed engine, but once I purchased an EFI car and got acquainted with the system and how it works a whole new love affair was born and carbs became a thing of the past for me.
Very true. And I wouldn't be suprised if my af was all over the place.lol. if I could just get my darn wideband already.

Like I said though. I wouldn't do it. Stay efi. You will be happier.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:02 PM   #27
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Very true. And I wouldn't be suprised if my af was all over the place.lol. if I could just get my darn wideband already.

Like I said though. I wouldn't do it. Stay efi. You will be happier.
I'm going to see what I can do to help you get one.
Maybe I can do nothing and maybe not, we won't know until I make the effort.
I need one for my purposes too, but since I cannot do much with it until I get my health issues resolved I'm thinking that if I can swing the cash for one I will loan it to you for both our benefits?
I'm very interested in seeing the results myself.
How does that sound to you?
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:07 PM   #28
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I'm going to see what I can do to help you get one.
Maybe I can do nothing and maybe not, we won't know until I make the effort.
I need one for my purposes too, but since I cannot do much with it until I get my health issues resolved I'm thinking that if I can swing the cash for one I will loan it to you for both our benefits?
I'm very interested in seeing the results myself.
How does that sound to you?
That would sound great but you have already helped me out so much already. My overtime has picked up now. Maybe after I get everything caught up again I could swing one.
If I did I wouldn't want to keep it for very long. Maybe just long enough so we could see what it does.
Your something else Trojan.(in a good way).
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:16 PM   #29
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Not with a 302 or 306. Maybe a 331, never seen or heard of anyone putting those numbers down N/A. 347 and up you for sure can make 400 plus rwhp, as said above all depends on your setup.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:22 PM   #30
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That would sound great but you have already helped me out so much already. My overtime has picked up now. Maybe after I get everything caught up again I could swing one.
If I did I wouldn't want to keep it for very long. Maybe just long enough so we could see what it does.
Your something else Trojan.(in a good way).
Nah, you can't ever help a friend to much.
I'd want you to keep it for several months anyways so we could see how different weather conditions affect the A/F ratio.


Thanks, I just wish I had the means to help a lot more people.
Were I to "strike it rich" a lot of people would be very happy and so would I.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:33 PM   #31
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Not with a 302 or 306. Maybe a 331, never seen or heard of anyone putting those numbers down N/A. 347 and up you for sure can make 400 plus rwhp, as said above all depends on your setup.
I'm at 405 at the flywheel with my "conservative" mods. I believe that "IF" I were to kick the compression up a good bit and make some complimentary mods to the intake and exhaust systems I might be able to reach 450 RWHP relatively easy.
The more compression you add the more efficient the engine becomes, but keeping it properly fueled becomes an issue and expense that is sometimes overwhelming in the long run.
What do you think?


Years ago we had a guy in my area with a built 289 in a 65 Mustang Coupe.
He was running 13.5:1 compression, 351C 4V heads, special intake to fit and a forged bottom end.
I have seen him many times pull the front wheels 2 ft in the air on the street and blow away bigger engined built cars with ease at the strip. He had to be pushing 500 HP or better and he said he shifted it at 9500 RPM. The sound of that engine was nothing short of amazing and intimidating.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:37 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

I'm at 405 at the flywheel with my "conservative" mods. I believe that "IF" I were to kick the compression up a good bit and make some complimentary mods to the intake and exhaust systems I might be able to reach 450 RWHP relatively easy.
The more compression you add the more efficient the engine becomes, but keeping it properly fueled becomes an issue and expense that is sometimes overwhelming in the long run.
What do you think?

Years ago we had a guy in my area with a built 289 in a 65 Mustang Coupe.
He was running 13.5:1 compression, 351C 4V heads, special intake to fit and a forged bottom end.
I have seen him many times pull the front wheels 2 ft in the air on the street and blow away bigger engined built cars with ease at the strip. He had to be pushing 500 HP or better and he said he shifted it at 9500 RPM. The sound of that engine was nothing short of amazing and intimidating.
Hahahahahaha TH your knowledge amazes me. Yes I agree 100 percent, but I was kinda getting at most people don't go that rout. And the fact your car makes that power is my personal first for an engine that size.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:03 PM   #33
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Hahahahahaha TH your knowledge amazes me. Yes I agree 100 percent, but I was kinda getting at most people don't go that rout. And the fact your car makes that power is my personal first for an engine that size.
Thank you.
The bottom end (shortblock) was built by Keith Craft Racing Engines and they also suggested and assembled the parts for the long block. They Dyno'd the engine at 405 HP and I think around 350 or better torque. For the life of me I can't find the letter they sent with the engine, but I remember the HP figure well because that was what I was most interested in at the time. I know it is buried in the massive amount of paper and/or electronic information I have on the car, but I have been unable to locate it so far.


You are 100% correct most people will not go that route, but it is possible.
The main issue will be the driveability. An engine built like that would be a huge pain to operate and maintain for a street car, but it would run like stink on the track.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

I'm at 405 at the flywheel with my "conservative" mods. I believe that "IF" I were to kick the compression up a good bit and make some complimentary mods to the intake and exhaust systems I might be able to reach 450 RWHP relatively easy.
The more compression you add the more efficient the engine becomes, but keeping it properly fueled becomes an issue and expense that is sometimes overwhelming in the long run.
What do you think?

Years ago we had a guy in my area with a built 289 in a 65 Mustang Coupe.
He was running 13.5:1 compression, 351C 4V heads, special intake to fit and a forged bottom end.
I have seen him many times pull the front wheels 2 ft in the air on the street and blow away bigger engined built cars with ease at the strip. He had to be pushing 500 HP or better and he said he shifted it at 9500 RPM. The sound of that engine was nothing short of amazing and intimidating.
So my mustang dynoed at 306 rwhp and they told me I'm losing 25% hp cause of the auto trans , so that puts me around 390-395 flywheel hp, correct?
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Old 05-23-2012, 02:02 PM   #35
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So my mustang dynoed at 306 rwhp and they told me I'm losing 25% hp cause of the auto trans , so that puts me around 390-395 flywheel hp, correct?
If you are losing 25% - 306 x .25 = 76.5 + 306 = 382.5 HP at the flywheel.
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