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Old 12-11-2016, 07:50 PM   #1
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too much engine vibration

i checked for misfires and bad mounts (all good) but it the engine shakes the whole car. mounts are a yr and a half old. when i rev just a little the vibration smooths out until i let off the gas. could my engine be unbalanced? it was built 1 1/2 years ago using new parts and trip to the machine shop. could the timing chain be worn and have too much slack?
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Old 12-11-2016, 08:45 PM   #2
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Have you checked your harmonic balancer?
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Old 12-12-2016, 05:34 AM   #3
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No, I haven't. Good thinking. What should I be looking for? Wobbling?


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Old 12-12-2016, 08:07 AM   #4
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Check torque of bolt and look for separation or cracking of material between pulley and center of hub.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:15 AM   #5
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Ok I'll take a look after work. Hopefully that's all I need.


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Old 12-12-2016, 09:54 PM   #6
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Just a couple of thoughts...do you have a manual transmission?
Also, is it at a certain RPM...different RPM's?
Does it happen in neutral at an idle and what about running in gear at the same RPM that you feel vibration smooth out when you rev the motor?
My best guess would be the harmonic balancer, flywheel clutch if you have a manual, driveline or Ujoint...just sounds like a drivetrain issue...IMHO
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Old 12-13-2016, 09:37 AM   #7
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Great thoughts Rodder. When he said revving engine, I assumed he was setting still, didn't think to ask if he was rolling down the road feeling the vibration.
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
Just a couple of thoughts...do you have a manual transmission?

Also, is it at a certain RPM...different RPM's?

Does it happen in neutral at an idle and what about running in gear at the same RPM that you feel vibration smooth out when you rev the motor?

My best guess would be the harmonic balancer, flywheel clutch if you have a manual, driveline or Ujoint...just sounds like a drivetrain issue...IMHO

It only really vibrates the most at idle. Smooths out under acceleration. I have a new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel and bearings that where installed 2 months ago. sometimes when I stomp on it and get to the power band and hold it there the stick shift shakes like crazy. But what Im mostly worried about is the vibration at idle. I wear glasses and when I pull up to a red light they shake right off lol, yeah it's that bad. I checked my harmonic balancer and didint notice any wobbling in its rotation.


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Old 12-13-2016, 07:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haav2 View Post
It only really vibrates the most at idle. Smooths out under acceleration. I have a new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel and bearings that where installed 2 months ago. sometimes when I stomp on it and get to the power band and hold it there the stick shift shakes like crazy. But what Im mostly worried about is the vibration at idle. I wear glasses and when I pull up to a red light they shake right off lol, yeah it's that bad. I checked my harmonic balancer and didint notice any wobbling in its rotation.


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Who installed the clutch/pressure plate/flywheel...what bearings are you referring to, throw-out bearing???? Did the car vibrate before the clutch was put in it?????
If the vibration is that severe I wouldn't be driving the car until it gets sorted out as something is really wrong!!!!
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:59 PM   #10
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This sounds very worry some to me. Does the vibration change when you push the clutch pedal in and out? Try this setting still while holding RPM at its worst vibration.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:11 PM   #11
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What RPM'S does the engine idle at?
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
Who installed the clutch/pressure plate/flywheel...what bearings are you referring to, throw-out bearing???? Did the car vibrate before the clutch was put in it?????

If the vibration is that severe I wouldn't be driving the car until it gets sorted out as something is really wrong!!!!

We replaced throw out bearing and pilot bearing and flywheel in hopes of that fixing the vibration. The car vibrated before the clutch change. When the clutch is pressed it does the same. The car idles at 900 to 1000rpm without any surging or rough idle. Back when i built the motor I sent the block to get bored .20 over and ordered forged internals and new crank with arp bolts and fasteners all around from the machine shop. I'm assuming all these parts were balanced as I told the machine shop to order me what I need to keep it reliable but have power. I told them what supercharger and other mods I was gonna use and they did the ordering. But maybe, just maybe one of the internal components aren't properly balanced. I've had this vibration since the motor was built and put in which is almost 2 years ago but I'm finally starting to get annoyed of the shaking.


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Old 12-13-2016, 11:50 PM   #13
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It's strange that it only vibrates at idle. Did you do the assembly of the engine yourself? Or did the machine shop assemble it?
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:32 AM   #14
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I assembled it myself


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Old 12-14-2016, 07:34 PM   #15
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What motor have you got, is it a 5.0l pushrod motor?
So, you changed the complete rotating assembly, crank, rods, pistons. What harmonic balancer did use use and what flywheel did you use.
If most of the vibration comes at idle I'm wondering if you have a vacuum leak...at idle is when you are pulling the most vacuum on the intake, as the RPM increases it becomes less and less...have you done a leak-down test on the motor after it has been driven? Do the plugs all look the same when you pull them and if you have a roller cam is it hydraulic or solid and when was the last time you checked the valve clearance.
If the lower end forged crank/rods/pistons were purchased as a kit did the machine shop check the balance?
This is after the fact and I'm sorry to rub salt into the wound but if the motor vibrated right after installing it after the rebuild I would have taken it back...this just sounds very strange...IMHO
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:45 PM   #16
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Since the engine was assembled at home, I don't know if there would have been much that the machine shop could have done... Other than tell Haav2 to remove the engine, disassemble it, and bring it to them so they could take a look at it.

I agree. First, there needs to be a comprehensive diagnosis performed on the engine to determine if there is something mechanically wrong that is causing it to vibrate. Along with the leak down/compression test, I recommend hooking up a vacuum gauge to check if there is a problem with the valve train.
In a year and a half, you have probably double checked everything, but you really should go over all of the work that you did again... WITH A FINE TOOTHED COMB!!! And check for any trouble codes.
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Old 12-15-2016, 12:44 PM   #17
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Have you checked the part number on the balancer to make sure its the correct one?? Mistakes are made by distributers and parts store employees quite often that causes the wrong part to be placed in the package,like putting a balancer with a 28oz imbalance in a box thats suppose to have a 50oz balancer,etc.

Is the transmission mount good?? A bad tranny mount can let vibration travel.Does the vibration stop if you push the clutch pedal down??

Have you taken the serpentine belt off then start the car & let it idle,to see if the vibration goes away??

Loose flywheel bolts can also cause vibration,but youll usually hear an intermittent knocking or clunking noise at idle & deceleration.
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Old 12-21-2016, 06:04 PM   #18
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too much engine vibration

.
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Old 12-21-2016, 07:07 PM   #19
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Haav2, Your post is like your engine vibration.
What happened?
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Old 12-25-2016, 03:30 PM   #20
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Sorry about that. Last couple days I've been investigating the car and trying different things. The vibration could just be the mounts, even though they're new ,I've been reading about the mounts I have which are Anchor brand. Every where I look there are bad reviews.

Thinking of buying poly mounts. They say they make vibration but I've experienced the worst. Anything at this point will help. I hope it's just the mounts. If not I'm gonna have to pull the engine again and meticulously inspect every thing.

Day before yesterday me and a friend pulled out the carpet, door panels trunk area, and put in some of this sound and vibration deadening mat all over the interior of the car. Buttoned it all up and now all the interior vibration of the plastic parts have drastically disappeared. Car still shakes though.


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Old 02-09-2017, 03:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by straybullitt View Post
Since the engine was assembled at home, I don't know if there would have been much that the machine shop could have done... Other than tell Haav2 to remove the engine, disassemble it, and bring it to them so they could take a look at it.



I agree. First, there needs to be a comprehensive diagnosis performed on the engine to determine if there is something mechanically wrong that is causing it to vibrate. Along with the leak down/compression test, I recommend hooking up a vacuum gauge to check if there is a problem with the valve train.

In a year and a half, you have probably double checked everything, but you really should go over all of the work that you did again... WITH A FINE TOOTHED COMB!!! And check for any trouble codes.

After looking and trying to externally fix this problem I've realized that I have to open the engine to find out what's going on, as of yesterday I started pulling the engine.

Once I get it on a stand I will check everything out piece by piece looking for any marks. There was a little bit of metal shavings in the oil and on my magnetic drain plug. Not an alarming amount but still it could be deadly.

I'm headed to the shop right now to Finish geting the engine out. Will keep you guys posted.
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Old 02-09-2017, 04:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haav2 View Post
After looking and trying to externally fix this problem I've realized that I have to open the engine to find out what's going on, as of yesterday I started pulling the engine.

Once I get it on a stand I will check everything out piece by piece looking for any marks. There was a little bit of metal shavings in the oil and on my magnetic drain plug. Not an alarming amount but still it could be deadly.

I'm headed to the shop right now to Finish geting the engine out. Will keep you guys posted.
It's never good to find shavings in the oil but the real proof at how much metal has gone through the motor is to check the oil filter...cut the top off and pull the paper out and spread it out on white paper towels...this would tell the story.
I've done this not only on my race cars...which was done everytime I raced...also done on my daily drivers...can be an early warning sign before something really happens...IMHO
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:53 AM   #23
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Engine is out, it's now on the stand, taking off parts now. I'm gonna try cutting the oil filter now and see what I find too thanks.
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:47 PM   #24
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Good luck and interested in your finds.
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Old 02-10-2017, 07:16 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurf stang View Post
Good luck and interested in your finds.

Thanks. After taking out the pistons I found that 4 pistons (oil filter side)5,6,7,8, bearings are scored to bronze.The weird part Is that 1,2,3,4 are still silver. Also on the crank shaft where the caps connect to half is rough and other side is smooth. Rough where the scored bearings went and smooth where the non scratched bearings went. So far I think I'm gonna have to send pistons and crank to the machine shop to get new bearings and new or resurfaced crank. I'm also thinking maybe the crank got unbalanced perhaps. But idk. Hopefully I can get this sorted out. Will keep adding info as I go. Click image for larger version

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Scratched
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Clean, no scratch
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Rough crank area where I'm touching, next to it is smooth.
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Also noticed this piston has a little bit of bronze coloring around the bottom, don't know what that could be.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:22 PM   #26
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Update! I found that my harmonic balancer has a big ol crack. This is what probably made my engine vibrate and messed up the crank and ground four of my rod bearings. Click image for larger version

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More coming soon.
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:52 PM   #27
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I would also take the block to the machine shop and see if the crank bore is still withing specs. What did the main bearings look like.
I don't remember how many miles you have on the rebuild but the pistons sure have a lot of carbon build up on them!
Are those aftermarket rods and was the that crank turned or aftermarket?
Since you had the motor in the machine shop what were the specs on the block crank bore, crank, rods and pistons...what were the clearances set at?
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
I would also take the block to the machine shop and see if the crank bore is still withing specs. What did the main bearings look like.

I don't remember how many miles you have on the rebuild but the pistons sure have a lot of carbon build up on them!

Are those aftermarket rods and was the that crank turned or aftermarket?

Since you had the motor in the machine shop what were the specs on the block crank bore, crank, rods and pistons...what were the clearances set at?

Main bearings looked good, minuscule amount of wear.
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The rest are pretty much the same

The build only had about 3 to 4K miles.
Crank was turned
Rods and pistons were forged aftermarket
Block was bored .20 over
Don't really know what clearances though. It's been a couple years and this car was only for weekends Idk if the shop still has my info on file.
I might order a new crank, balancer, all new bearings after I have the block checked.
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:03 PM   #29
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WOW! I thought it might be your harmonic balancer. I wonder why it cracked like that? Take that with you to the machine shop to let them look at it. You have any ideas why it cracked? Was it hard to take off? Glad you found your vibration, but sorry it turned out to be so major.
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:07 PM   #30
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The wear pattern on the mains should be more even and from the picture it looks like the main bore isn't straight or an issue with the crank...although you had some serious torsional vibration the wear pattern on the rods looks similar to the crank.
Don't mean to hit a dead horse over the head...whenever you build a motor for HP/TQ the entire rotating assembly should be mag'd or better yet...replace the OEM damper. With that said either way I'd have the main bore checked...your money and your motor...
This was a race motor I built and raced low tens high 9's...raced it for 6 seasons before I tore it down...put them together right and they'll stay together...IMHO
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:36 PM   #31
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It's came off normally, I tugged on the cracked piece after pulling it out and the piece came right off. I looked for numbers on the balancer and saw a # 28 on it. Online there are 50oz and 28oz. It was the balancer that came with the motor when I first bought the car, the block It came with had "xxx" marked in the lifter valley. the block I currently have has a "yyy" if that helps. My crankshaft is a E7ae-aa 2mae , came with the 1st block, sent it to the Machine shop, they turned it, and I used it in the block I am using now.

Is that crank supposed to use a 28oz balancer? Maybe it was meant to use a 50oz and it messed everything up inside the engine. I'll have to check my flywheel tomorrow and see what imbalance it has. I still can't believe that four rod bearings on the same side of each other ground down that much and not the other four. and im hating myself for not changing the balancer and now im paying for it.

Gonna do some research and find out if the harmonic balancer I had was the wrong one or it was just it's time to go. Then, get the block checked. buy a new crank, bearings, rod bearings, piston rings, new balancer.
Hope it fixes this, can't wait to get back on the road.
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:09 PM   #32
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All 302's from 1968 to 1980 or early 1981 used the 28 ounce damper. 1981 to 2001 used the 50 ounce damper as it was my understanding the cranks were lighter than the earlier cranks...to be able to tell what year block you have you need to give me the casting number which is on a pad above the starter on the right side of the block.
I have no idea what the casting numbers are on the crank as I've never seen an E7AE...a 7FE8 is a Boss 302 forged steel crank. The 2M means it is a 302 and I've never seen any letters after the 2M. Find the block numbers and we should be able to narrow down the year...maybe.
How about sending some pictures of the crank with numbers along with the block casting numbers?
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Old 02-15-2017, 03:22 PM   #33
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All 302's from 1968 to 1980 or early 1981 used the 28 ounce damper. 1981 to 2001 used the 50 ounce damper as it was my understanding the cranks were lighter than the earlier cranks...to be able to tell what year block you have you need to give me the casting number which is on a pad above the starter on the right side of the block.

I have no idea what the casting numbers are on the crank as I've never seen an E7AE...a 7FE8 is a Boss 302 forged steel crank. The 2M means it is a 302 and I've never seen any letters after the 2M. Find the block numbers and we should be able to narrow down the year...maybe.

How about sending some pictures of the crank with numbers along with the block casting numbers?

Here's some pictures of the block casting numbers and crank numbers.

Block
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Crankshaft
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Balancer that broke
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Old 02-15-2017, 03:39 PM   #34
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First, the block numbers E7TE is a 1987 or newer block and I would assume it came out of a Truck or Bronco or Van.
I need to run out the door and look at the crank numbers when I get back although my guess it would also be an 87 or newer crank which I would assume needed the 50 ounce damper although not 100% sure.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:19 PM   #35
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The crank you have is an 87 to 92 and I would assume it should have the 50 oz. damper not the 28 oz.
Did this motor run before you rebuilt it?
I've always internally balanced 289/302/351w motors since most of my motors used a non OEM crank/rod/pistons...for what it's worth.

Read this article;

The Secret to Balancing Small-Block Fords - Hot Rod Network
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