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Old 01-07-2007, 07:58 PM   #1
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KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

This is a pretty cool video. Apparently its in Baton Rouge. Maybe Smurfin know some of these people.

606HP KB Mustang Cobra VS 550HP Ford GT
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Old 01-07-2007, 08:08 PM   #2
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

in your sig, its suposed to be "Birds may fly but snakes bite"

and nice find on the video too bad the GT guy can't drive
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Old 01-07-2007, 08:17 PM   #3
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

I was thinking the same thing. Saw a video a while back of an 03-04 cobra and a new z06. Z06 had 490 at the wheels and the cobra had 590, the z06 took it from a roll. Something about him weighing 800 or so less than the z06 and the z06 has MUCH better aero. The GT should have stayed with him no prob.

On the race setup, roll racing is for Jeff Gordon. Dig or die mofo's. Actually, on that note the GT would have definately gotten beat.
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Old 01-07-2007, 08:27 PM   #4
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

Ya'll I think that Cobra just ate that *** is what it is. The main reason a Z06 will beat a Cobra with more HP at high speeds is because its so long legged and has better aerodynamics, not really weight, Supra's are heavy cars too but their very quick at accelerating at high speeds. And a C6 Z06 weighs about 500 to 550lb less than a Termy.
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Old 01-07-2007, 08:32 PM   #5
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

Supra's are good for rolls because their powerband doesn't start until a typical V8 stops... Especially the ones with a big honkin' turbo.
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Old 01-07-2007, 08:39 PM   #6
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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Ya'll I think that Cobra just ate that *** is what it is. The main reason a Z06 will beat a Cobra with more HP at high speeds is because its so long legged and has better aerodynamics, not really weight, Supra's are heavy cars too but their very quick at accelerating at high speeds. And a C6 Z06 weighs about 500 to 550lb less than a Termy.
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Something about him weighing 800 or so less than the z06 and the z06 has MUCH better aero. The GT should have stayed with him no prob.
I meant to say more than the Z06 haha. Either way, I did say it had better aero. And supra's weight about as much as a New Edge GT. The Z06 is about 3100 lbs. I thought the 03-04 Cobras were 37-3800 lbs? So my math isn't all that right haha.
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Old 01-07-2007, 08:45 PM   #7
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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I meant to say more than the Z06 haha. Either way, I did say it had better aero. And supra's weight about as much as a New Edge GT. The Z06 is about 3100 lbs. I thought the 03-04 Cobras were 37-3800 lbs? So my math isn't all that right haha.
C6 Z06's weigh around 3150-3200lbs Terminators weigh around 3650-3700lbs. Some say Supra's weigh around 3450lbs and others say around 3650lbs. Who to believe. :dunno:
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:28 PM   #8
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

a z06 is lighter, has more power, better aero, basically just better. It takes about 550-600rwhp from a 03/04 cobra to take down a z06~
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Old 01-07-2007, 11:29 PM   #9
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

This race went down at our dyno day. It is a stang hi customer's car...ridden in that car, it is a beast. Took long enough for it to drift its way over here...lol

Details of the race:

GT had exhaust, no tune
KB is a beast.

GT was driven by a 17 year old that shifted at 3000 rpms. He called out the KB cobra thinking he would wax it. Yeah, well, he can't drive for ****. Neither can I, but damn, he should have strolled him.

KB Cobra guy kept talking about wanting to race people. Was called out to run the white shop saleen (also owned by the kid with the GT and his father)...wouldn't run him. Oh well.

This video is a disgrace and should have never happened. The kid driving needs to realize his skill level before talking smack.

None the less, it happened, it is on video, and I would be pimping it everywhere if it were me that had just strolled a GT that bad as well. Hell, with the way he drove, I think my pulleyed cobra could have smoked the GT in that race.

A rematch with a real driver would be nice...however that GT now has the Kenne bell snout and tune and is putting down 620 rwhp on 93...so it wouldn't be a true rematch.

By the way, this GT is the one I post pics and videos of.
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Old 01-07-2007, 11:36 PM   #10
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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Old 01-08-2007, 01:32 AM   #11
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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On the race setup, roll racing is for Jeff Gordon. Dig or die mofo's. Actually, on that note the GT would have definately gotten beat.
at the 500 mark doing anything in first and second gears is useless and/or just results in broken parts and lots of wear on the drivetrain/chassis. roll races are better for finding out which car is better.

youll also see this if you watch any of the AMS Evo videos. 1000+ hp to all four wheels now. its driveline is built up but even they are wary about using it at the track. On street tires, it couldnt get traction in 4th at the track. they were afraid of what will happen when slicks are used and they try launching it. this is why most of the AMS vids are seen from a roll, less drivetrain stress and more of a test of the car rather than driver. and since in this day in age, alot of the ricer kiddies hate to lose, its better that you test car vs car, not driver vs driver. everyone gets their ego's involved and its downhill from there. if a driver loses, he gets pissed. if a car loses, the owner just spends more money on it.

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Supra's are good for rolls because their powerband doesn't start until a typical V8 stops... Especially the ones with a big honkin' turbo.
true. theyre gearing and top end give them an advantage. plus their motor is nearly indestructable stock and they are relatively easy to mod. if you have the money. downside is mods cost cause its a small market and manufacturers can claim they have lots of R&D into a part, and since its a small market, upcharge the hell out of it. and the initial purchase price of the vehicle itself. if you want a freeway beast supra, youre looking at a 40k if you use brand new parts and dont half *** ****. i think Hogan said he had 60k into one of his supras on his show (Hogan Knows Best).

though if you think modding a supra sounds bad, imagine the cost of trying to do that to a Skyline, In America!
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Old 01-08-2007, 02:20 AM   #12
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

I say if you throw big turbo/turbo's on most any modern american muscle cars(Mustangs, F-Bodies, Vettes, Vipers, etc) and build their motors to take the abuse of a lot of boost, they should be just as fast from a roll as a Supra with a big turbo. Of couse gearing and aerodynamics also play a big factor in fast high speed acceleration, but ya'll get what I'm saying.

BTW nothing against Supra's, I think their very bad *** cars.
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Old 01-08-2007, 02:34 AM   #13
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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I say if you throw big turbo/turbo's on most any modern american muscle cars(Mustangs, F-Bodies, Vettes, Vipers, etc) and build their motors to take the abuse of a lot of boost, they should be just as fast from a roll as a Supra with a big turbo.
true, but the supra comes with that badass basically "built" motor from the factory, and thus isnt part of the equation.

the closest thing domestics have right now in terms of modability, availability of parts and cost, to a supra is The Terminator. a very strong engine stock, 5k can get you into the upper 500 low 600hp range, and cost of vehicle is equal to cost of a supra. what people dont realize is how much it takes to get the supra from the stock levels to freeway king levels. last time i checked, the cost of the single turbo changeover kit was in the 6-7k range. im sure thats came down, but still thats alot of money to changeover to singles. then another 2k on a fuel system, and whatever it costs to get the dam thing tuned. and if you got the auto, its gonna need work. and same with the 6spd, i dont think it takes well to alot of power and rpm's.
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:58 PM   #14
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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at the 500 mark doing anything in first and second gears is useless and/or just results in broken parts and lots of wear on the drivetrain/chassis. roll races are better for finding out which car is better.

youll also see this if you watch any of the AMS Evo videos. 1000+ hp to all four wheels now. its driveline is built up but even they are wary about using it at the track. On street tires, it couldnt get traction in 4th at the track. they were afraid of what will happen when slicks are used and they try launching it. this is why most of the AMS vids are seen from a roll, less drivetrain stress and more of a test of the car rather than driver. and since in this day in age, alot of the ricer kiddies hate to lose, its better that you test car vs car, not driver vs driver. everyone gets their ego's involved and its downhill from there. if a driver loses, he gets pissed. if a car loses, the owner just spends more money on it.



true. theyre gearing and top end give them an advantage. plus their motor is nearly indestructable stock and they are relatively easy to mod. if you have the money. downside is mods cost cause its a small market and manufacturers can claim they have lots of R&D into a part, and since its a small market, upcharge the hell out of it. and the initial purchase price of the vehicle itself. if you want a freeway beast supra, youre looking at a 40k if you use brand new parts and dont half *** ****. i think Hogan said he had 60k into one of his supras on his show (Hogan Knows Best).

though if you think modding a supra sounds bad, imagine the cost of trying to do that to a Skyline, In America!


If you have 500 whp and can't hook, you need to get new tires and suspension.... So what you're telling me is the new thing is roll racing? Roll racing is a test of what a car can do(like what you said). What's the point of racing then if you are just racing money to money???? How boring. I'd love to know that I beat a car with a lot more hp because the idiot driver didn't know how to handle it.

And where did the rant on the price of modding stuff come into play. I've been around the block and know that you can make supra do 200 mph with a hell of alot less than 40 thousand dollars. And Mr. Hogan's son also spent a ton of money on his car(since we are talking about him). I'm just wondering since the Supra motor is so "indestructible"(only if you have a badass tuner) then why did hogan's son spend 17 thousand dollars in parts for the MOTOR from titan motorsports. A friend of mine here had a "highway beast" and didn't spend anywhere near 40k dollars. He bought the full HKS Street kit and MIGHT have spent 14K on it with a mail order tune. You should really do your research first.

The reason why the AMS Evo never hooks is that is can't warm up the tires enough to get full use of the slicks they are driving on. Hell at 100 mph the car still breaks looks. AWD just isn't a good idea for cars that run 9's or 8's. Plus, look at how peaky the power band is. The car probably lauching with less than 400 hp and like torque and the next few tenths of a second it goes to more than double that. It's just not a good drag platform and is good for nothing more than a highway runner.[/rant]
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:13 AM   #15
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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If you have 500 whp and can't hook, you need to get new tires and suspension.... So what you're telling me is the new thing is roll racing? Roll racing is a test of what a car can do(like what you said). What's the point of racing then if you are just racing money to money???? How boring. I'd love to know that I beat a car with a lot more hp because the idiot driver didn't know how to handle it.
i dont know about you, but for me its not about the driver, its about cars. i hate people, i like cars. i want to know what a car does, not hear excuses from the driver. roll racing takes this excuse-ability away, and makes it a car vs car race. when both driver commit, they commit knowing that one car will win and one car will lose.

sure beating a expensive overpriced car in a normal car is cool cause the doof couldnt drive, but thats not fair to the vehicle, to base a win versus a car cause the driver cant drive. you didnt beat the other car, you beat the driver.

i dont know id post up a kill if i knew the driver couldnt drive. If i took my belated cobra against a GT500 and won, and it was cause the driver failed, id just know i beat him and not the car. stick a driver of equal skill and the car should decimate mine without trying.

see, i dont like it when it becomes driver vs driver instead of car vs car, because like i said before, when the driver loses, his ego gets involved, and around here, you gotta watch who you race, alot of the honduh kiddies get mad when your car is better than theirs, and theres alot of stories of honduh kiddies stalking and either ripping off their conquerer, or even killing them cause their car was better. when you race a car thats faster and lose, you just say "oh well, need more mods" and continue on with your life.

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I've been around the block and know that you can make supra do 200 mph with a hell of alot less than 40 thousand dollars. And Mr. Hogan's son also spent a ton of money on his car(since we are talking about him). I'm just wondering since the Supra motor is so "indestructible"(only if you have a badass tuner) then why did hogan's son spend 17 thousand dollars in parts for the MOTOR from titan motorsports. A friend of mine here had a "highway beast" and didn't spend anywhere near 40k dollars. He bought the full HKS Street kit and MIGHT have spent 14K on it with a mail order tune. You should really do your research first.
oh yeah, well Ive been around the block, neighborhood, suburb, north/east/west/south side, went to the grocery store for a 40 and came back.........twice. [/one upper]

and dude, thats 40k INCLUDING the price of the initial vehicle purchase.........

though you confuse me. first you say its easy by stating you can make a supra do 200mph cheap wth less than 40k (even though i was referring to mods+vehicle cost), then you go on to saying hogans son spent 17k into the motor alone. So what youre saying it its cheap but then its not cheap? 14k on a turbo kit is chump change, cmon now.

when i make a estimate, i put EVERYTHING into it, **** that most dont think about like rims/tires, brake kits, suspension, down to gauges and whatnot. you think one kit, i think the whole shibbang, the total estimate of add-on parts PLUS the purchase price of the vehicle = total.

so tell me, how much did your buddy spend on his car? now add in the 14k turbo kit, and dont forget the obvious rims/tires, suspension, brakes, injen dress up kit (supra ladies love teh Injen parts!), all the way down to the boost gauge and shift boot, add it up. Im guessing im pretty close with a estimate of car+mods at 40k, and whatever labor he gets charged for anything he cant install himself or tuning or what have you.

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The reason why the AMS Evo never hooks is that is can't warm up the tires enough to get full use of the slicks they are driving on. Hell at 100 mph the car still breaks looks. AWD just isn't a good idea for cars that run 9's or 8's. Plus, look at how peaky the power band is. The car probably lauching with less than 400 hp and like torque and the next few tenths of a second it goes to more than double that. It's just not a good drag platform and is good for nothing more than a highway runner.
and yeah, obviously AWD isnt the greatest drag car for 9's and 8's.............i mean hell, sheps only in the mid 7's, still running a stock 4g63 block he got from BJ's Cylinder heads years ago, on the same tranny used for over 300 consecutive passes. but cmon, thats just sevens, in a car that still has all the interior amenities of a stock talon minus passenger and rear seats to make room for the massive cage he must run. shep was doing 8's and 9's before bryan spilner owed turetto a 10 second car, before supras even made 1000hp. Shep was doing single digits when the biggest injector was a 550cc and AEM EMS was but a dream.

but i do agree, the power curve on the AMS Evo is too spiky to make much use of it on anything but 4th 5th and 6th on the freeway. but god dam, that must be a fun ride tell you what.
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:30 PM   #16
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

Speaking of fast Ford GT40's, have y'all seen this?

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Old 01-10-2007, 04:24 PM   #17
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

I give up. I want to know I'm a better drive than the other person..... I could almost swear that racing to win is better driver and car not just car. What your saying whoever has more money should win... PERIOD. Hell, then why not just kill off NASCAR, NHRA, WRC, SCCA, etc. All of the cars in the same class have the same mods and it is based on driver alone in some cases. What you are saying is whoever has the best mods should win, i.e. the most money. C'mon man, ego's are part of racing and always have been.


The only reason I mentioned the price of spending money on the block is because you said it was indestructable and I had to point out that they aren't. If they were, then they wouldn't make crank/rod/piston combo's for the car. Also you said 40k in parts, not including the car in the originaly post. You even said if you want to get the good stuff it would run you 40k.. And that buddy of mine, he and a friend installed it. He spent 27k on the car and 14 on the kit. Yes including the car, I would think 40k is reasonable.

Yes, I know all about Sheps car. On another site I'm on that's all I hear about. That's great and all, but he's just doing it to show it can be done. It's more of a demo car than anything. You say how good AWD is and then go into how it's a stock block from such and such and so on. ADD much. You totally avoided my point.
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:17 PM   #18
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

No rebuttle?
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:19 PM   #19
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

Racing from a roll is like running in the special olympics. Even if you win, people are still gonna laugh at you for the rest of your life.
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:22 PM   #20
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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Racing from a roll is like running in the special olympics. Even if you win, people are still gonna laugh at you for the rest of your life.
"I like you" [/borat]


Isn't a blast beating cars that in theory could beat you and/or surprising someone by beating them when they have tons more hp and can't put it to the ground?


I don't have too big of a head when racing because I like to keep it fun, but I still consider it a driver/car race not just car.

P.S. Was waiting for Mr. Eleanor to reply.
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:42 PM   #21
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

IMO. I would rather beat the person than beat the car. If I can out drive you, then I feel a lot better than if it was just the car that won. But I guess for people that can't really drive that well, I can see why they would like it to be a race between the cars
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:51 PM   #22
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IMO. I would rather beat the person than beat the car. If I can out drive you, then I feel a lot better than if it was just the car that won. But I guess for people that can't really drive that well, I can see why they would like it to be a race between the cars
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:58 PM   #23
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

The late, great Ronnie Sox is proof enough for me that the driver was the secret weapon in drag racing. I've seen him take an ailing car to the finish line first by being a bandit off the line and making a 4-speed sound like an automatic. And that was waaay before the sophisticated suspensions available today. But, I never saw him do it from a roll.
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Old 01-11-2007, 06:00 PM   #24
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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No rebuttle? Mr. Eleanor
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:32 PM   #25
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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No rebuttle?
i have a life maybe :dunno: sorry i dont browse every thread in every forum every day and respond to each.

and just for waiting so avidly i will leave you without a reply about your post, just to **** with your head. i might come back tomorrow, but eh, i think leaving it open is much more suspenseful. Ill reply to someone elses though........

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IMO. I would rather beat the person than beat the car. If I can out drive you, then I feel a lot better than if it was just the car that won. But I guess for people that can't really drive that well, I can see why they would like it to be a race between the cars
your second sentence says it all. YOU feel better. It doesnt mean your car is any faster than anyone elses, it just means they suck at driving and you dont, or at least suck less than them. I dont care if they suck or if im a better driver, to me that proves nothing other than rich people cant drive, kids cant drive, etc. it doesnt mean their car is any less than mine, or that mine is any faster. if youre taking the car out of the equation and saying its driver vs driver, why even be in cars then? you can have a driver race on a tricycle.

I race cars, not drivers.
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:02 PM   #26
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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Racing from a roll is like running in the special olympics. Even if you win, people are still gonna laugh at you for the rest of your life.
im sure, i bet everytime a race on youtube or streetfire is posted you lolz all night long.

i dont hear much laughing when Joe races his Twin Turbo GT, or when you see countless other roll vids of Vipers and Bikes, Supras, Etc. your whole quote is purely closed minded, and shows what ignorance you truly have when it comes to the real world. "Durr, I laugh at cars who race on the freeway cause they make 1000+ HP, Durka Durka" like yeah, im sure you do. Im sure when a completely stock looking camaro gets next to you and you entice it and he just rapes you you say "haha ill laugh at this for the rest of my life". sad dude, sad.



sorry now i cant hold back, boredom got the best of me.

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I give up. I want to know I'm a better drive than the other person..... I could almost swear that racing to win is better driver and car not just car. What your saying whoever has more money should win... PERIOD. Hell, then why not just kill off NASCAR, NHRA, WRC, SCCA, etc. All of the cars in the same class have the same mods and it is based on driver alone in some cases. What you are saying is whoever has the best mods should win, i.e. the most money. C'mon man, ego's are part of racing and always have been.
No. Its also about the car setup and what is done in the pits to make the car feel better for the driver. True, money plays a big part in getting the best parts, but money also pays for the "best" driver, but if that were the case, Tony Stewart would win every nascar (they give 230mil severance to their CEO's, imagine what their nascar team gets sponsored!). but he doesnt. neither does Earndhart or Gordon or all of the other best funded teams, sometimes experience in how to build a car with what they have on hand win the day over the best driver or most funding. same goes with any racing sport.
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Old 01-11-2007, 10:03 PM   #27
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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im sure, i bet everytime a race on youtube or streetfire is posted you lolz all night long.

i dont hear much laughing when Joe races his Twin Turbo GT, or when you see countless other roll vids of Vipers and Bikes, Supras, Etc. your whole quote is purely closed minded, and shows what ignorance you truly have when it comes to the real world. "Durr, I laugh at cars who race on the freeway cause they make 1000+ HP, Durka Durka" like yeah, im sure you do. Im sure when a completely stock looking camaro gets next to you and you entice it and he just rapes you you say "haha ill laugh at this for the rest of my life". sad dude, sad.
Yes, I laugh very heartily from deep within my balls. Guess you wouldn't know anything about that though.

As far as what "ignorance" I have when it comes to the "real world". I'm lost. I'd like to know what you know about the real world that I don't know about the real world. I have watched every season since the first and know it like the back of my hand.

And I've never had a Camaro rape me, so I don't know what that would be like. I do know this though: If I get raped by a Camaro, it's gonna be from a goddamn dig.

Horsepower is just a matter of money. Anyone can buy a 1000+ horsepower Camaro. Unfortunately, putting power to the ground is not so easy. Not every idiot can buy the combination of a correctly set-up suspension and the ability to drive.

I guess considering that, it makes perfect sense that you would be a proponent for racing from a roll. Daddy can buy Cobras, but he can't buy skill.

Sorry.

I don't care if a car makes 2000 horsepower. If I can go from a dead stop to a quarter-mile down the road faster than he can... guess what?

I win.

Besides, 100+ mph freeway runs are just that old Darwin bastard doing his dirty work. I love that guy.
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Old 01-11-2007, 10:36 PM   #28
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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Racing from a roll is like running in the special olympics. Even if you win, people are still gonna laugh at you for the rest of your life.
A race is a race is a race. If he wants to run from a roll, and I win, then I beat him. If he wants to run from a dig, and I win, then I beat him. I don't really give a ****. A race is a race. A sucky driver can lose in a roll race (as proven in this video) just as easily as they can lose from a dig race.

The whole debate over a roll race isn't a real race is about as retarded as the argument that the GT500 is the baddest mustang ever produced. No one will ever win either argument.
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Old 01-11-2007, 10:37 PM   #29
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

I always win
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Old 01-11-2007, 10:40 PM   #30
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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I always win
Until we get to the lodge and I get the master bedroom.
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Old 01-11-2007, 10:53 PM   #31
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

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Until we get to the lodge and I get the master bedroom.
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Old 01-12-2007, 02:29 AM   #32
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

I don't think there anything wrong with racing from a roll, if thats what both people want to race from.

It puts a lot less strain on your car.
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Old 01-12-2007, 07:04 AM   #33
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

Hmm... Roll racing... Let's see... It puts less strain on your car. It takes a lot less skill. It's the preferred method of ricer's.

Sounds a lot like flag football to me.
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Old 01-12-2007, 07:58 AM   #34
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

you all are forgetting something very important, any sort of race on public roads or any sort of race thats not timed correctly is basically worthless within a given percentage that can not remain the same race after race, heck even tracks are not 100% accurate....

To me roll races came about from people wanting to race but having no where to do it but on the interstate or flag open highways and they cant just stop etc etc but in general I would much rather run from a stop~ but if I had a top end queen sure i would want a roll lol.
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Old 01-12-2007, 05:44 PM   #35
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Re: KB Cobra Vs. Ford GT With Exhaust And Tune

I do agree if that is what both parties agree to is still a race. My point was that a true test of driver/car setup/suspension/tires is from a dig. My opinion, but I stand by it. I don't think starting in second or 3rd gear takes as much traction/skill/setup as it does from a dig.


I'm with bbunt, money can't buy skill. :thumbs2: Mr. I only race from a roll guy. (I'd do a real men of genius thing, but just don't have the creative mentality right now).
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