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Old 05-09-2006, 12:15 AM   #1
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amp to sub circuit question

ok, can I have them hooked up in parallel like this? 2 subs off a single channel amp? It would level out the power, as the subs I want are 2 kicker L7's, they're 4 ohm each. Now, putting them in parallel would make them appear to the amp as 2 ohms. Would this affect anything? Each sub has 750 watts RMS, and 1500 max watts. It's a dual voice coil sub. also, what power rating am I looking for for the amp? I think this could be a good easy way to save some money.
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Old 05-09-2006, 10:24 AM   #2
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

You would have to tell me that amp model first.
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Old 05-09-2006, 10:59 AM   #3
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

I don't know... it was sort of a theoretical question. I haven't bought the amp yet. I'm lookin' for suggestions. Just didn't know the wattage I would need the amp to have, or if you can even do a signal split like that.
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Old 05-09-2006, 11:06 AM   #4
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Yes you can wire it in parellel and it will see a 2ohm load. Just make sure the amp can handle a 2ohm load... all mono block amps will.
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Old 05-09-2006, 11:13 AM   #5
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
Yes you can wire it in parellel and it will see a 2ohm load. Just make sure the amp can handle a 2ohm load... all mono block amps will.
ok, but what specs am I looking for on that amp? could someone give me a link to one? I want to utilize close to the max of what the subs can do.... but not enough to blow them.
also, will the fact that they're being seen as a 2 ohm load change the sub output any, because they're a 4 ohm sub? Or will each see current as though they were 4 ohm instead of 2?
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:01 PM   #6
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

just run 2 amps or get a monster 2 ch amp, it will be alot easier and remember that a mono block to two subs will cut its power in half

PS run the ohm load the SUBS are made to run at
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:21 PM   #7
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

the only problem is that it's hard to find amps that run 1500 watts at 4 ohms. hhhhhhhhheeeeeeelppp me.
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Old 05-09-2006, 04:57 PM   #8
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by timpryor
just run 2 amps or get a monster 2 ch amp,
Or you could just buy one amp and run it at 1ohm.

Quote:
it will be alot easier and remember that a mono block to two subs will cut its power in half
It won't be easier or cheaper. Buy a Mono amp that can run at 1ohm.. there are plenty out there for what you buy two amps for.

Quote:
PS run the ohm load the SUBS are made to run at
That makes no sense. The subs can run at different ohms.

You got 2 dual 4 ohm subs. This mean you can buy a mono block amp that is 1 ohm stable and wire the subs to see a 1 ohm load like this:



I would recommend this amp: eBay: ***Directed 1100D Mono AMP**Like NEW*** (item 9722209806 end time May-11-06 12:35:39 PDT)

1000x1rms at 1 ohm. Plenty power
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Old 05-09-2006, 05:01 PM   #9
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

thanks a lot Brent. Now, here's my question. Will each sub hit with 1000 watts of power? Or will it be different than that?.. and OMG, 1000 watts RMS, that might be too much, hahaha... the subs can only do 750 watts RMS. Guess I might have to tune it down? Or would each see 550 watts RMS?
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Old 05-09-2006, 10:39 PM   #10
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
thanks a lot Brent. Now, here's my question. Will each sub hit with 1000 watts of power? Or will it be different than that?.. and OMG, 1000 watts RMS, that might be too much, hahaha... the subs can only do 750 watts RMS. Guess I might have to tune it down? Or would each see 550 watts RMS?
Each sub would see 500rms. Plenty imo.
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Old 05-09-2006, 10:41 PM   #11
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
Each sub would see 500rms. Plenty imo.
funny because thats exactly what i said but i was wrong

anyways have fun getting the subs to run safe at 1 ohm, subs are made to run at the ohm load that they are made to run at for a reason, some can do it some can't. but whatever
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Old 05-09-2006, 10:46 PM   #12
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
Each sub would see 500rms. Plenty imo.
yeah, you're right, at least for now, muhahaha... yeah, gotta get the Saleen first.
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Old 05-09-2006, 11:14 PM   #13
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by timpryor
funny because thats exactly what i said but i was wrong

anyways have fun getting the subs to run safe at 1 ohm, subs are made to run at the ohm load that they are made to run at for a reason, some can do it some can't. but whatever
You said get a Monster 2 channel amp

Monster 2 channel amps don't go to 1ohm stable. A few mono block amps do. Monster 2 channel amps also do not have sub sonic filters and are not as efficent. I have never seen a sub that couldn't do 1 ohm stable. Especially a Kicker L7 that was designed to push out serious bass.
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Old 05-09-2006, 11:20 PM   #14
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

yes, I am going to love the L7's .... serious bass = a happy Beaner
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:12 AM   #15
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Just to warn you, you will most likely want a cap so you don't kill your alty. I went through 3 alty's in my old car in a year, and I had 2 bd1000.1 fosgate power amps on 2 12" power HX2's. Once I got a cap for it, they hit like they never did before. That..and the other good part about a big system, you can always turn the bass down a few notches, you can't turn a small system up a few notches lol.
With that said, I'm enjoying my 600rms to 2 dvc premier 12's.
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:54 AM   #16
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowflyn
Just to warn you, you will most likely want a cap so you don't kill your alty. I went through 3 alty's in my old car in a year, and I had 2 bd1000.1 fosgate power amps on 2 12" power HX2's. Once I got a cap for it, they hit like they never did before. That..and the other good part about a big system, you can always turn the bass down a few notches, you can't turn a small system up a few notches lol.
With that said, I'm enjoying my 600rms to 2 dvc premier 12's.
I will definitely have a capacitor... what size would be best?
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:16 PM   #17
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

The set up that I have, you may want to be careful with the amount of power that you have going, like lowflyn said you may go through some altys, or end up like me with a dead battery every other month. I have....two 12" MTX subs with an Infinity 611A 761 watt mono amp, I have been meaning to get a capacitor, but dont have the money or time to install it now. Also my subs heat so hard that some of my car electronics like the power windows and power locks dont work at times, cause the wires shook loose. So just a heads up if you go with to much power you might be screwing your car up some.
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:21 PM   #18
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

I look forward to it
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Old 05-10-2006, 07:03 PM   #19
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Caps are pointless.....
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Old 05-10-2006, 07:26 PM   #20
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

True, just keep the volume and bass levels down and you dont need it.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:37 PM   #21
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
Caps are pointless.....
please iterate on that, i noticed a difference with mine and i've only got a 1 farad.
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:26 PM   #22
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

keep the volume and bass down? hell no... if I'm gonna buy the system, I'm gonna blast it
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:00 AM   #23
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

better throw a 4 ch. amp and some nicer speakers in there too, and a shatload of dynamat
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:01 AM   #24
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

what happened to the mono?
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:09 AM   #25
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
Caps are pointless.....
ever heard of the term "Clipping"?

either did i until i met the local audiobahn guru. plugged his pc into my amps parallel jack and loaded a program on his laptop which was able to access every little thing the amp did. you could see when the bass hit, the voltage the amp recieved dropped under 10v. when he ran a constant bass CD, you could see the amp running at 8v and my output was being hindered as a result.

2 caps later (since i was recommended 1farad per 500w), and on that same bass CD, same track, settings, etc, voltage doesnt drop under 12.

a cap stores power when youre not using it to be used for when you do need it. my system goes Battery>Cap>Cap>Amp>Ground, and each cap has a seperate chassis ground(using the same ground post for the amp and both caps will result in hissing). the one cap closest to the amp gets used the mostand will go from 13.2 to 12ish under given load, as the other is its backup(the one closest to the battery) and stays around 12.6-12.8 under heavy bass. even though the cap says its hovering at or under 12, the amp still sees a constant voltage of 12 or higher.

when running 1200w@1ohm, a constant voltage source is a must.
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Old 05-11-2006, 10:20 AM   #26
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Here's why a cap is useless.





Quote:
After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?

Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.

A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.

WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?

As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )

Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).

Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.

As you may know, an amplifiers is made up a battery of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.

Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.

Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:

WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?

Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:

www.eatel.net/~amptech/el...raudio.htm

Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.

WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?

The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.

WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?

Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens

When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.8V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.

HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?

1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads

For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.

Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.


IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?

My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.

Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT

In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is a peashooter, and we need a Howitzer 150 calibre cannon.

Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like justin says, “..The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged…” you get the drift.

SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?

1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..


Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it’s over.

HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?

They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?

IN A NUTSHELL.......

When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.

WHY?

In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.

STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?

Here's the Original Cap Debate.

www.carsound.com/ubb/Arch...00307.html

Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.

Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.

In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( battcap.net - All about battcap.net</title>
<title>battcap.net - All about battcap.net
) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors.
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:42 PM   #27
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

alright, so how do I keep my lights from dimming? Or do I just not have my system up at night? Cause it might look pretty 'ghetto'. Second battery?
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:25 PM   #28
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Thank you Zim
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:27 PM   #29
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by timpryor
please iterate on that, i noticed a difference with mine and i've only got a 1 farad.
That's funny cause I ran a directed 1100D amp without a problem on my weak stock V6 Mustang alternator. What is your setup?

I had a friend who had (2) 15" Treos on a Directed D2400 in a Explorer... never had a problem. That's 1200x1rms at 1ohm.
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:17 PM   #30
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Re: amp to sub circuit question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
That's funny cause I ran a directed 1100D amp without a problem on my weak stock V6 Mustang alternator. What is your setup?

I had a friend who had (2) 15" Treos on a Directed D2400 in a Explorer... never had a problem. That's 1200x1rms at 1ohm.
a 4ch alpine and a 648 Watt Rms amp, with a volt meter on it so i knew when teh cap was doing its job, whenever i would crank the system up lights would dim, amp voltage would drop from 14.2 to 12.8 every time they hit. after the 1 farad cap(which i only paid 68 bucks for new) my voltage stays at a constant 14.1 V and no more lights dimming but 'eh what do i know
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