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Old 05-17-2012, 12:17 PM   #1
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Hot Rod cams

I am just starting to modify my 08 Cali Special, so far I installed long tube headers, cat. X pipe, FRRP stingers and a C&L racer intake with tune. I'm now thinking of installing hot rod cams, 62 Mm TB and a FRRP intake manifold, is this a good combo and what kind of horse power gains should I expect? Thanks for your help.
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:24 PM   #2
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Get bbr stage 1 cams if you want power and not just sound
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caster Troy
I am just starting to modify my 08 Cali Special, so far I installed long tube headers, cat. X pipe, FRRP stingers and a C&L racer intake with tune. I'm now thinking of installing hot rod cams, 62 Mm TB and a FRRP intake manifold, is this a good combo and what kind of horse power gains should I expect? Thanks for your help.
Pass in The throttle body, and invest in 373s or 410s you'll need them with the cams
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:04 PM   #4
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I actually have 4.10 gears, I guess I missed that on my thread.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:13 PM   #5
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Just pick up a gt500 tb an spacer ... U can find em for $100 and u will see nice gains w your mods
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silversky545
Just pick up a gt500 tb an spacer ... U can find em for $100 and u will see nice gains w your mods
No get headers first if you don't have em
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:23 PM   #7
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Re: Hot Rod cams

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Originally Posted by Silversky545 View Post
Just pick up a gt500 tb an spacer ... U can find em for $100 and u will see nice gains w your mods
TB and spacer has been proven over and over to net next to 0 gains on cars under 500 HP.

FRRP is one of the 'better ones' and it netted about 5RWHP on a S/C car.



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No get headers first if you don't have em
He said he did haha
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Borii

TB and spacer has been proven over and over to net next to 0 gains on cars under 500 HP.

FRRP is one of the 'better ones' and it netted about 5RWHP on a S/C car.

He said he did haha
So a performance TB is basically useless with these types of mods?

---------- Post added at 08:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 AM ----------

So what's the best intake manifold to go with the new cams? I know long tube exhaust is a must which I already have.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:05 PM   #9
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Underdrive pullies are a good cheap mod
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:12 PM   #10
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Ford racing intake is pretty good for na. C&l and jpc are better for power adder cars. Last month muscle mustangs and fast fords did a article on testing all three. Maybe you can still find it on their site.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:27 PM   #11
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Re: Hot Rod cams

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Originally Posted by Caster Troy View Post
So a performance TB is basically useless with these types of mods?

---------- Post added at 08:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 AM ----------

So what's the best intake manifold to go with the new cams? I know long tube exhaust is a must which I already have.
I wouldn't say useless but lets generalize a bit.

If you do not have an intake with tune, a TB spacer does help throttle response a bit because by adding length it adds travel distance to straighten out the air flow.

Now, if you have an intake with a tune, a TB spacer does absolutely nothing.

Now, as for the throttle body, nothing bad can happen that I can think of if you add one, but there will be little to gain. The stock fuel setup is more than adequate at fuel delivery at moderate HP levels. You may see 1-3 WHP but if tomorrows temperature were to be 90 degrees you would lose more than that 1-3 in heat soak alone.

If you are making High HP with heads and cams then a TB can help because it can make use of a better flowing system. Until then, the money a TB costs can be better spent on other mods for now.

So neither part is useless, they just have their specific slots for uses.

I personally PREFER the FRRP intake manifold because it is the same composite as stock and it helps 100 fold in cooling faster without outside influence.

Now, an intake manifold alone may not net you any HP per se on a dyno but with cams, it adds a better flow to your existing parts as the car accelerates and takes in more air. In simple terms any way haha.

Cams vary as well. Some cams kill your low end and raise your power band beyond a point that you can safely go on a stock valve train. I PREFER the Brenspeed cams because they are designed to use your stock valve train and it lost little to nothing in torque while making exceptional gains under 6800. Now, other cams make more power after the 6500 mark but that requires more of an investment in the valvetrain. So you can't use that power until the latter is done. On the Detroit Rocker cams, the powerband is high but still in the 4800-5000 + area which is much more useable in a street car. The peak numbers aren't as high but the complimentary work is also not necessary.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:28 PM   #12
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The gt500 tb an what I did not mean to call a spacer is actually a adapter plate to allow the gt500 tb to fit the 4.6l.... Almost everyone that says a tb does not do anything does not have one.... I have the same mods as him... And I assure you the tb is worth $100 I picked mine up for $25 so that's even better.... After he adds cams an hopefully at some point heads... The tb WILL allow more air to be pulled into the motor giving you much quicker throttle response an power gain in the higher rpm range... As for the FRPP intake manifold if you run cmdp on a stock intake it's damn near the same thing as the FRPP intake, to me $100 for cmdp as opposed to $500 + for an intake will not justify the price difference
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:35 PM   #13
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Re: Hot Rod cams

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Originally Posted by Stang.racr View Post
Ford racing intake is pretty good for na. C&l and jpc are better for power adder cars. Last month muscle mustangs and fast fords did a article on testing all three. Maybe you can still find it on their site.
Three-Valve Intake Manifold Dyno Test - Three's A Crowd - Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords Magazine

Thanks for the tip man! I love reading this stuff.

---------- Post added at 03:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Silversky545 View Post
The gt500 tb an what I did not mean to call a spacer is actually a adapter plate to allow the gt500 tb to fit the 4.6l.... Almost everyone that says a tb does not do anything does not have one.... I have the same mods as him... And I assure you the tb is worth $100 I picked mine up for $25 so that's even better.... After he adds cams an hopefully at some point heads... The tb WILL allow more air to be pulled into the motor giving you much quicker throttle response an power gain in the higher rpm range... As for the FRPP intake manifold if you run cmdp on a stock intake it's damn near the same thing as the FRPP intake, to me $100 for cmdp as opposed to $500 + for an intake will not justify the price difference
Again, not trying to argue but results outweigh claims in the end. TB and spacers do not show valuable gains until high HP applications.

CMDP is a decent mod but not exactly a replacement for an intake manifold. There is science and technical testing behind this. Not just claims.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:42 PM   #14
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I've seen this stuff in person standing by a dyno your argument is the exact same for the intake... The FRPP intake will damn near kill your bottom end unless you have a ton of supporting mods.... No to mention the frpp intake is made for high rpms... 6-8k rpm range ... So if ur bottom end is OEM u will not even b able to get into the power band that the intake performs in... Don't take my word for it call the frpp customer service number... They will tell you the same thing
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:51 PM   #15
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Re: Hot Rod cams

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Originally Posted by Silversky545 View Post
I've seen this stuff in person standing by a dyno your argument is the exact same for the intake... The FRPP intake will damn near kill your bottom end unless you have a ton of supporting mods.... No to mention the frpp intake is made for high rpms... 6-8k rpm range ... So if ur bottom end is OEM u will not even b able to get into the power band that the intake performs in... Don't take my word for it call the frpp customer service number... They will tell you the same thing
An intake manifold, yes, will almost always perform best in much higher RPM than most can ever achieve but they still feed our engines well under. In the link provided, torque loss was non existent in either FRRP OR C&L. It was however in the JPC but the JPC did have the highest peak numbers. All within 4500 to 6500.

Now, the tested cars had their heads ported. This may get some bottom end back, granted. But the Manifold works well. It is an expensive piece that will not give you much on its own on a dyno but it feeds the car well. If your goal is to stay N/A or go s/c later, a manifold works fine because either way you are getting a little more.

On a NON S/C engine, it can be good for 1.5 Tenths in an n/a car with cams, that is worth every penny to some if you have already exhausted every other bolt on possible short of a 'bolt on' supercharger and need that little bit to trap 120 or nail that 11.99.

Additionally, without ported heads you will not benefit as much but again, when scavenging for every HP possible, it is always a viable option. Just a very expensive one in the HP to Dollar factor so I would make it one of the last mods I get.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:00 PM   #16
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I've been in a car w the intake n question ... He had every bolt on (not heads or a cam) an it was a dog from a dig....but having 4:10s would help a lot... At the end of the day it's just money ...
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:15 PM   #17
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Hot rod and detroit cams have pretty close of the same specs. You tube bbr cams and check them out.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:15 PM   #18
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Wow, good stuff.
I've owed this car since new and just paid it off, I was tempted to buy the new 5.0 but really love my car and don't want to take on another car payment at least for a few years. Besides, I think the 05-09 body style looks better. My whole goal is to get at or over 400 HP naturally aspirated without modifying or replacing the heads. Is this possible with just bolt on's and tune?
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caster Troy
Wow, good stuff.
I've owed this car since new and just paid it off, I was tempted to buy the new 5.0 but really love my car and don't want to take on another car payment at least for a few years. Besides, I think the 05-09 body style looks better. My whole goal is to get at or over 400 HP naturally aspirated without modifying or replacing the heads. Is this possible with just bolt on's and tune?
To the flywheel ehh yes to the wheels no
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:52 PM   #20
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Re: Hot Rod cams

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Originally Posted by Caster Troy View Post
Wow, good stuff.
I've owed this car since new and just paid it off, I was tempted to buy the new 5.0 but really love my car and don't want to take on another car payment at least for a few years. Besides, I think the 05-09 body style looks better. My whole goal is to get at or over 400 HP naturally aspirated without modifying or replacing the heads. Is this possible with just bolt on's and tune?
I think getting 350 to the wheels would be a real challenge. You'd need to add 75-80 to the wheels for 350 at the wheels.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:13 PM   #21
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Re: Hot Rod cams

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Originally Posted by Silversky545 View Post
I've been in a car w the intake n question ... He had every bolt on (not heads or a cam) an it was a dog from a dig....but having 4:10s would help a lot... At the end of the day it's just money ...
Correct. It would be a dog from a dig. A higher gear (3.90 or higher) is recommended right in the description on AM and on C&L. For daily drivability I think CMDPs would do a better job. For "ultimate" HP goals and 1/4 numbers, an FRRP/C&L/JPC manifold would be a consideration but the $ for HP is one the lowest if not the lowest.

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To the flywheel ehh yes to the wheels no
If he is willing to go stroker he can achieve huge n/a numbers but it doesn't seem like something so complex is his goal.

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I think getting 350 to the wheels would be a real challenge. You'd need to add 75-80 to the wheels for 350 at the wheels.
Cams/catless LTs/Intake/93 Tune may be enough for 350 at the wheels. or in the 340s. Then he just needs to find a dyno that will read 350
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:06 PM   #22
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Stroker not an option, trying to keep it simple, don't wanna even pull heads. Cams is as deep as I want to go. 330 340 to the wheels would be great. Can I do it with the cams, intake, tune and long tubes?
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:24 PM   #23
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Heads are easy.... Port n polish ur OEM heads... No big deal... But great power
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:28 PM   #24
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Re: Hot Rod cams

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Heads are easy.... Port n polish ur OEM heads... No big deal... But great power
Agreed. Now, not every port job is the same so there is a price to pay for known quality work.

If he doesn't want to go deep then his goal of 330-340 is attainable on 93 with full basic bolt ons and street cams, such as Brenspeed's detroit rocker.

I have a friend on another forum, whom dyno I can attain in you guys REALLY want it but he dynoed 320 WHP in AZ with intake/tune and O/R X pipe on an Auto with an 87 tune. Not every dyno is exactly the same but it gives you insight on what is and isn't possible.
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:51 PM   #25
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Just found out a friend of a friend buys time on a mil machine after hours at a shop to do custom head work for side business... Looking at getting my heads done at a great price... (guy went to school for mil work) waiting to hear back on how long my car will be down an final price.... Don't quote me on this but I was under the impression taking heads off and putting them back on is less time consuming than installing cams...
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:58 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silversky545
Just found out a friend of a friend buys time on a mil machine after hours at a shop to do custom head work for side business... Looking at getting my heads done at a great price... (guy went to school for mil work) waiting to hear back on how long my car will be down an final price.... Don't quote me on this but I was under the impression taking heads off and putting them back on is less time consuming than installing cams...
Don't think I'd be letting anyone learn to do heads with mine. He can be the best mill operator ther is and not know ***** about flowing heads. I do my own Harley-Davidson heads, but I'm not touching the mustang
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:34 PM   #27
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. He build professional race cars for years... Economy crashed an decided to make a career change Due to business slowing down an not making the money he once did... This guy is in his late 40s an just does head and block work on the side for friends an a few customers he had back when he was doing it full time.... He is no newb.... I trust his work my 3-400 hp motor is nothing compared to what he is used to lol
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:20 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silversky545
. He build professional race cars for years... Economy crashed an decided to make a career change Due to business slowing down an not making the money he once did... This guy is in his late 40s an just does head and block work on the side for friends an a few customers he had back when he was doing it full time.... He is no newb.... I trust his work my 3-400 hp motor is nothing compared to what he is used to lol
Sounds like you may have a good deal going then. I know Andrews cams used to put a business card in ther box that said, a motor will only run as good as it breaths. In other words , its all about the heads.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:49 PM   #29
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Sounds like you may have a good deal going then. I know Andrews cams used to put a business card in ther box that said, a motor will only run as good as it breaths. In other words , its all about the heads.
Your statement also makes my previous statement in regards to gt500 tb ... You add cai, headers, intake manifold or cmdp, off road mid pipe... Cams... A bigger bore tb will allow more air to b sucked in... Is a tb worth $350 new? No... That's why I said buy used.. With every bolt on including h/c/I you can see up to 15hp out if a tb... (dyno proven)
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silversky545
. He build professional race cars for years... Economy crashed an decided to make a career change Due to business slowing down an not making the money he once did... This guy is in his late 40s an just does head and block work on the side for friends an a few customers he had back when he was doing it full time.... He is no newb.... I trust his work my 3-400 hp motor is nothing compared to what he is used to lol
So the ford heads at AM are basically just CNC ported and polished, right? And with FRPP cams you get 50 HP and spend over $3000 with installing yourself.
Now if your buddy ported and polished stock heads, add cams, you could maybe get close to 50 HP for $800 and your buddy's fee. Could be bad ***. How much would he charge you?
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:02 AM   #31
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Not sure waiting to hear back... I will not run that intake until I build a bottom end but I did however just meet the baddest fab guy ever! He is helping me build custom:
Upper an lower grille
Gt500 adapter plate
Shifter handle an ball (going to mimic agent 47 but chagrined it up a tad to fit my needs)
Quite possibly side exhaust that comes out through the body behind the doors...

Here is his current project
Ac cobra w direct from ford 96 cobra motor... It was built in late 1995 cobra... He custom made headers all stainless steel mandrel bent... He can fab up anything steel, aluminum, fiberglass... He's ****ing amazing! And he is in his early 20s!
I'll attach some of his paint work... Hard to tell how sick this stuff is w my iPhone camera
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Old 05-18-2012, 05:43 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silversky545

Your statement also makes my previous statement in regards to gt500 tb ... You add cai, headers, intake manifold or cmdp, off road mid pipe... Cams... A bigger bore tb will allow more air to b sucked in... Is a tb worth $350 new? No... That's why I said buy used.. With every bolt on including h/c/I you can see up to 15hp out if a tb... (dyno proven)
I think a tb in the hands of a good tuner will make all kinds of power over the stock.
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:07 AM   #33
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Re: Hot Rod cams

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Your statement also makes my previous statement in regards to gt500 tb ... You add cai, headers, intake manifold or cmdp, off road mid pipe... Cams... A bigger bore tb will allow more air to b sucked in... Is a tb worth $350 new? No... That's why I said buy used.. With every bolt on including h/c/I you can see up to 15hp out if a tb... (dyno proven)
Do you have any info on this dyno? Seriously, not being sarcastic. ALl the dynos I have seen were less than 2 or 3 RWHP unless it was S/C which THEN is still negligible with an xbox in the back seat.

If I had a dyno that would show a worth while gain, I would get one asap as I am trying to go 12.0 with just bolt ons.

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I think a tb in the hands of a good tuner will make all kinds of power over the stock.
If a TB had such serious gains as manufacturer claims, the dynos would be everywhere.
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:02 AM   #34
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Hp is misleading... Just because a car has high or low hp does not dictate speed... It's how everything works together.... I've seen a 1000 hp supra run mid 12s an a 275 rwhp run mid 12s im not sure what the dyno was I'll call the shop an ask em in a bit.....
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:01 AM   #35
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Head work:
$850 port n polish
Valves an what not $290-500 depending on what you want

---------- Post added at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 AM ----------

Oh and that's total.... Not per head
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