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Old 08-09-2012, 10:47 PM   #1
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This guy kinda makes sense...

So I was reading the big debate of turbo vs sc on some forums today when a guy made a valid point in my opinion. He was saying that centris require 30-40 hp to run at top speed, roots require upwards of 60 hp to run at top speed. Then add anything that the crank has to turn( water pump, alternator, etc). So let's say you measure 500 hp at the flywheel. Then Add the hp the sc takes to run and accessories and then stated that the rods might be handling as much as 600hp. Depending on the parasitic losses. Then take drivetrain losses and subtract another 15%. So this means 425 rwhp turns into 600 hp on the rods. However a turbo at the same power level, an electric water pump and aluminum flywheel you could be seeing 575 flywheel hp and 490 rwhp. Basically the guy is saying that higher, safer hp numbers can be achieved with a turbo rather than a sc because the turbo doesn't steal any hp to make it run so the number on your dyno will be closer to what the internals are seeing. Changed my decision between a sc or a tc! Thought the guy had pretty good logic.
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:04 PM   #2
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Re: This guy kinda makes sense...

yep that's pretty much how things work
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:52 AM   #3
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That's a good point by I'll still by a supercharger, my thought us if turbos make more power the would have them on top fuel and funny cars.
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Old 08-10-2012, 08:33 AM   #4
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Most drag racers run superchargers because a supercharger gives instant power and a turbo has lag. They also rebuild their engines a lot because of the amount of strain that sport puts on the engine. I have noticed that pretty much all of your supercars except the American made ones use turbos. I have always wondered why.
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaks06GT
That's a good point by I'll still by a supercharger, my thought us if turbos make more power the would have them on top fuel and funny cars.
They do make more power but have lag as stated above. Top fuel and funny cars can't afford lag. Superchargers give instant power. Ya know?
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:19 PM   #6
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So if i went with a turbo set up, it wouldnt be as much strain?? Would it still run like it does now when im just crusing around town?? Sorry i dont know much about turbo, also when does a turbo kick in??
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
So if i went with a turbo set up, it wouldnt be as much strain?? Would it still run like it does now when im just crusing around town?? Sorry i dont know much about turbo, also when does a turbo kick in??
Turbos are not necessarily less strenuous but you get more hp per psi. And as log as you are not building boost, it will react pretty much the same. The lag time of a turbo is dependent on the size of the turbo vs the size of the motor and how much "load" there is. Turbos run off of exhaust gases, if you are light on the throttle then very little exhaust gas/pressure is being generate to spool up the turbo.

I THINK the 2.3L sc on the new GT500 uses around 130 hp. So total power created by the motor is around 800 hp but only 662 is used due to the parasitic draw of the supercharger.
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
So if i went with a turbo set up, it wouldnt be as much strain?? Would it still run like it does now when im just crusing around town?? Sorry i dont know much about turbo, also when does a turbo kick in??
It runs off exhaust the higher the rpm the more boost
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garbill2003

It runs off exhaust the higher the rpm the more boost
No, not necessarily rpm, it's based on engine load. Centrifugal supercharges make boost based on rpms
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrabberBlue5.0

Turbos are not necessarily less strenuous but you get more hp per psi. And as log as you are not building boost, it will react pretty much the same. The lag time of a turbo is dependent on the size of the turbo vs the size of the motor and how much "load" there is. Turbos run off of exhaust gases, if you are light on the throttle then very little exhaust gas/pressure is being generate to spool up the turbo.

I THINK the 2.3L sc on the new GT500 uses around 130 hp. So total power created by the motor is around 800 hp but only 662 is used due to the parasitic draw of the supercharger.
So if i was shifting around 2- 25k rpm would it build boost?? Im askig because i hardly drive my mustang hard. But i like the thought of having power there if i ever needed to own some ricer. Lol
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:47 PM   #11
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And when it comes to turbos in car is that its cheep blowers are more expensive. Its all about the cost to build a car
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garbill2003

It runs off exhaust the higher the rpm the more boost
Plus the higher the RPM's the less lag it carries.
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake

So if i was shifting around 2- 25k rpm would it build boost?? Im askig because i hardly drive my mustang hard. But i like the thought of having power there if i ever needed to own some ricer. Lol
Depends on how hard you have you foot in the throttle, if you're accelerating lightly then little exhaust is created, if you are lead footing it, then more exhaust gas and more turbo spool, hence boost it created, it's not about rpms it's about rate of acceleration

---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by garbill2003
And when it comes to turbos in car is that its cheep blowers are more expensive. Its all about the cost to build a car
Not necessarily, depends on how much fabrication there is. Turbo setups generally run wayyyy hotter too

---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by primer2tone

Plus the higher the RPM's the less lag it carries.
This is true

---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by primer2tone

Plus the higher the RPM's the less lag it carries.
Only because it's easier to create more load faster at higher rpms
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrabberBlue5.0

Depends on how hard you have you foot in the throttle, if you're accelerating lightly then little exhaust is created, if you are lead footing it, then more exhaust gas and more turbo spool, hence boost it created, it's not about rpms it's about rate of acceleration
Okay i got you now. Well like i said i hardly drive it hard so i ease into it! But do you think a turbo is right for me?? Also what does a turbo sound like? Ive heard sc's and they sound sick!
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:54 PM   #15
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Turbos have a whistle whereas supercharger have a whine. If you want turbos go for it, centri could also be for you, personally I would go centri over turbo but in my mind twin screw trumps all.

It is your car though
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrabberBlue5.0
Turbos have a whistle whereas supercharger have a whine. If you want turbos go for it, centri could also be for you, personally I would go centri over turbo but in my mind twin screw trumps all.

It is your car though
Fill me in on centri!
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:59 PM   #17
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How about this set up two turbos and two blowers lol

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Old 08-10-2012, 12:59 PM   #18
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This DOES build boost based on rpms. And has power on demand (no lag). Also parasitic but generally much more efficient than a twin screw but less efficient than turbos. Also do not have to run allllllllll the extra piping for turbos and runs much cooler than turbos
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:41 PM   #19
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A centri is basically this. A turbo and a twin screw had a baby and they named it centri lol turbos are a PITA to install but for more power I'd be willing to go through the install lol and twin screws are hard on the motor just because of the sudden power. But nothing is more fun than driving a stang with a twin screw through town lol
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:28 PM   #20
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Re: This guy kinda makes sense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by black9D5 View Post
A centri is basically this. A turbo and a twin screw had a baby and they named it centri lol turbos are a PITA to install but for more power I'd be willing to go through the install lol and twin screws are hard on the motor just because of the sudden power. But nothing is more fun than driving a stang with a twin screw through town lol
Then you have never driven a centri through town. Centri is the best of both worlds, it gives your car the time to hook up and builds more power than a twin screw. And is way easyer to install and builds less heat than a turbo with more turbo like power numbers. Plus it makes a jet engine sound all the time in or out of boost. Want to turn heads all the time? Get a centri
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:56 PM   #21
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Yup a turbo is free hp, just takes up a lot more room than a sc.
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:00 PM   #22
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Re: This guy kinda makes sense...

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Originally Posted by black9D5 View Post
So I was reading the big debate of turbo vs sc on some forums today when a guy made a valid point in my opinion. He was saying that centris require 30-40 hp to run at top speed, roots require upwards of 60 hp to run at top speed. Then add anything that the crank has to turn( water pump, alternator, etc). So let's say you measure 500 hp at the flywheel. Then Add the hp the sc takes to run and accessories and then stated that the rods might be handling as much as 600hp. Depending on the parasitic losses. Then take drivetrain losses and subtract another 15%. So this means 425 rwhp turns into 600 hp on the rods. However a turbo at the same power level, an electric water pump and aluminum flywheel you could be seeing 575 flywheel hp and 490 rwhp. Basically the guy is saying that higher, safer hp numbers can be achieved with a turbo rather than a sc because the turbo doesn't steal any hp to make it run so the number on your dyno will be closer to what the internals are seeing. Changed my decision between a sc or a tc! Thought the guy had pretty good logic.
Yes, it does make sense, but I don't know where he got his numbers or if they are anywhere near accurate. Each system is going to be different depending on engine mods, blower gear ratios, air intake and exhaust efficiency, intercooled or not, etc., etc.. A turbocharger is "safer" to use, because it runs off of hot exhaust gasses and does not introduce any "extra" unwanted harmonics into the engine rotating assembly.


Most people will choose a supercharger over the turbocharger simply because of the cost and ease of installation. A lot of people prefer a centrifugal over a screw or roots style blower because the screw/roots blowers build more heat, cost more and are a bit harder to install. The main selling point for a screw or roots blower is that they make power right off of idle and in the rpm range that most cars are frequently driven. A centrifugal supercharger makes power from approximately 2000-3000 rpm and up. They also usually cost significantly less than the screw/roots superchargers and the turbochargers, which is one of their strongest selling points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco09GT View Post
Yup a turbo is free hp, just takes up a lot more room than a sc.

Turbochargers do not provide "free" HP. There are parasitic losses with a turbo just as there are with any forced induction system, BUT they are considerably more efficient than other types of forced induction. Due to that efficiency they will make more power at comparable boost levels than centrifugal, screw or roots style superchargers.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

Yes, it does make sense, but I don't know where he got his numbers or if they are anywhere near accurate. Each system is going to be different depending on engine mods, blower gear ratios, air intake and exhaust efficiency, intercooled or not, etc., etc.. A turbocharger is "safer" to use, because it runs off of hot exhaust gasses and does not introduce any "extra" unwanted harmonics into the engine rotating assembly.

Most people will choose a supercharger over the turbocharger simply because of the cost and ease of installation. A lot of people prefer a centrifugal over a screw or roots style blower because the screw/roots blowers build more heat, cost more and are a bit harder to install. The main selling point for a screw or roots blower is that they make power right off of idle and in the rpm range that most cars are frequently driven. A centrifugal supercharger makes power from approximately 2000-3000 rpm and up. They also usually cost significantly less than the screw/roots superchargers and the turbochargers, which is one of their strongest selling points.

Turbochargers do not provide "free" HP. There are parasitic losses with a turbo just as there are with any forced induction system, BUT they are considerably more efficient than other types of forced induction. Due to that efficiency they will make more power at comparable boost levels than centrifugal, screw or roots style superchargers.
Whats a good brand centri supercharger? And where to buy??
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:18 PM   #24
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Re: This guy kinda makes sense...

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Whats a good brand centri supercharger? And where to buy??
Paxton

Pro Charger

Vortech

Google Search for best prices.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:40 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

Paxton

Pro Charger

Vortech

Google Search for best prices.
Trojan what would be most reliable and best for me out of those 3 brands?? Heres how i use my car

I have a work truck thats my dd, my car is in the garage most of the time during weekdays, weekends i take it out, cruise around town, you know. Im hardly ever flooring my car. But i want something that will be there when i need it. Something that will kick in when i want it, so something that kicks in at higher rpms. I never get above 2k when cruising around town. So give me your opinion!!
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:54 PM   #26
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Re: This guy kinda makes sense...

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Trojan what would be most reliable and best for me out of those 3 brands?? Heres how i use my car

I have a work truck thats my dd, my car is in the garage most of the time during weekdays, weekends i take it out, cruise around town, you know. Im hardly ever flooring my car. But i want something that will be there when i need it. Something that will kick in when i want it, so something that kicks in at higher rpms. I never get above 2k when cruising around town. So give me your opinion!!

Any of the three would be a good choice.
The centrifugal superchargers don't really start working until 2-3k rpm's, so They should be a good choice for you.

I have a Paxton Novi 2000 myself, but my choice was based on what I knew at the time and I knew that Paxton had been making superchargers for Fords since the 60's, so I figured they would be a good match for me.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

Any of the three would be a good choice.
The centrifugal superchargers don't really start working until 2-3k rpm's, so They should be a good choice for you.

I have a Paxton Novi 2000 myself, but my choice was based on what I knew at the time and I knew that Paxton had been making superchargers for Fords since the 60's, so I figured they would be a good match for me.
Do you like it?? Is it reliable? Is there anything i can do to make sure my engine will be okay running the paxton or procharger?? Also, do i need a tune for either? I have a bama tuner but im not sure if they tune for sc's?? Thanks ALOT for your help Trojan
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:12 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake

Do you like it?? Is it reliable? Is there anything i can do to make sure my engine will be okay running the paxton or procharger?? Also, do i need a tune for either? I have a bama tuner but im not sure if they tune for sc's?? Thanks ALOT for your help Trojan
I think there's no way around trying not to tune anything with a pro charger
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:28 PM   #29
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Re: This guy kinda makes sense...

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Do you like it?? Is it reliable? Is there anything i can do to make sure my engine will be okay running the paxton or procharger?? Also, do i need a tune for either? I have a bama tuner but im not sure if they tune for sc's?? Thanks ALOT for your help Trojan
I like it well enough, but it's still in its box.
I was injured at work 3 years ago and I still have not recovered enough or finished with work comp to the point where I can install it yet.

Your engine will be fine if you keep the boost down to 6-8 psi and keep it well tuned and run only premium fuel to ensure it does not detonate.

The very first thing you will need to do is to have it professionally tuned. A BAMA chip tune won't do.

A large percentage of first time supercharger/turbocharger installers never make it to the tuner with their vehicle because they cannot wait to "open it up a bit".
Don't be one of them, do not open it up until it has been properly tuned to a safe A/F ratio and had the timing properly set for ****** under boost. Also, do not "free rev" the engine with forced induction. The sudden closing of the TB plate backs up the boost pressure and it can damage your charger.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:36 PM   #30
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Great info Trojan

---------- Post added at 12:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 AM ----------

I was thinking the e force or saleen super shaker, I think you've changed my mind.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:47 PM   #31
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Great info Trojan

---------- Post added at 12:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 AM ----------

I was thinking the e force or saleen super shaker, I think you've changed my mind.
Thanks, I have done a lot of research and reading on the subject and I try to help my friends on ME to have as few problems and as much fun as possible.
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Old 08-21-2012, 07:43 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

I like it well enough, but it's still in its box.
I was injured at work 3 years ago and I still have not recovered enough or finished with work comp to the point where I can install it yet.

Your engine will be fine if you keep the boost down to 6-8 psi and keep it well tuned and run only premium fuel to ensure it does not detonate.

The very first thing you will need to do is to have it professionally tuned. A BAMA chip tune won't do.

A large percentage of first time supercharger/turbocharger installers never make it to the tuner with their vehicle because they cannot wait to "open it up a bit".
Don't be one of them, do not open it up until it has been properly tuned to a safe A/F ratio and had the timing properly set for ****** under boost. Also, do not "free rev" the engine with forced induction. The sudden closing of the TB plate backs up the boost pressure and it can damage your charger.
Okay awesome, alot of great info right there!! So pretty much, use premium, get dynotuned, keep boost down to 6or8, and ill be fine??
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:39 AM   #33
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Re: This guy kinda makes sense...

you will make more power per psi on a good turbo setup vs a supercharged setup, the issue is if your motor can handle it~ if it cant and either can get you to the limit then its not really as big of a deal at that point~ but you are right turbos = more power per input as they dont require as much to make the power or rather nearly nothing
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:50 AM   #34
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Trojan if you are in Dallas area I'll bring some experienced folks and install it for you...

As for the guy asking about what brand to choose... I'd go with brenspeeds vortech package... it's everything you need including tuner and tune for around 3k

It's simple... puts down enough power to keep all internal OEM parts safe, and allows you to up the boost if need be... if I remember right you will end you w around 450 rwhp give or take (that's on a 100% stock car) but can make as much as 650wrhp

It's a sick deal if you ask me
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:35 AM   #35
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Trojan if you are in Dallas area I'll bring some experienced folks and install it for you...

As for the guy asking about what brand to choose... I'd go with brenspeeds vortech package... it's everything you need including tuner and tune for around 3k

It's simple... puts down enough power to keep all internal OEM parts safe, and allows you to up the boost if need be... if I remember right you will end you w around 450 rwhp give or take (that's on a 100% stock car) but can make as much as 650wrhp

It's a sick deal if you ask me
That does sound like a great deal, so they send me a tuner??
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