my 66 coupe... - Page 12 - Mustang Evolution

Go Back   Mustang Evolution > 4 Cylinder | V6 | Classic Mustangs || Tech and Talk > Classic Mustangs

Join Mustang Evolution Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them here!
Old 09-10-2016, 08:21 PM   #386
Registered Member
Regular
 
fstbck70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Omaha
Region: Nebraska
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
This may be relevant to this thread or not...and when the time comes I'll start a build thread...I've been asked to help build a vintage 310 cubic inch motor for a 69 Mustang Trans Am...we will need to be making around 600hp @ the crank with a single carb...the catch is we will have to be using OE parts or parts that meet OE specs...with maybe a little of Smokey Yunick's imagination... like block, crank, heads, cam, intake and carb...no aluminum heads or block. So within the next month we'll put together list of parts and start sourcing them...let the fun begin!?

Well I'd definitely be interested in this!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Mustang SRCaADDz(:53
fstbck70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-10-2016, 09:52 PM   #387
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
What parts are you interested in and why?
Just trying to get a feel as to what may or may not be of interest.
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-10-2016, 11:17 PM   #388
Registered Member
Regular
 
fstbck70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Omaha
Region: Nebraska
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
What parts are you interested in and why?

Just trying to get a feel as to what may or may not be of interest.

Cost and feasibility mostly. And how to build one that churns out those #'s.


Sent from my iPhone using Mustang SRCaADDz(:53
fstbck70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2016, 11:42 PM   #389
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by fstbck70 View Post
Cost and feasibility mostly. And how to build one that churns out those #'s.


Sent from my iPhone using Mustang SRCaADDz(:53
Thanks for the response.
This will be in a "race only" 69 Mustang Trans Am car scheduled for racing in a few of the West Coast Vintage Trans Am venues and although we don't have a blank checkbook I suspect finding and using OE parts it will be around $15/20k...using non OE parts it would be $10/15k and making a more user friendly street motor in the 500hp range...600hp is a tall order with small cubic inches...this race motor will be rung out over 8000rpm.
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2016, 01:10 AM   #390
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 6,738
600 hp is a hell of a tall order for the specifications that you've outlined. Definitely going to need to take some pages out of Smokey Yunicks book on rulebook interpretation to get close to that!

Looking forward to the build!
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2016, 09:08 AM   #391
Registered Member
Regular
 
fstbck70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Omaha
Region: Nebraska
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
Thanks for the response.

This will be in a "race only" 69 Mustang Trans Am car scheduled for racing in a few of the West Coast Vintage Trans Am venues and although we don't have a blank checkbook I suspect finding and using OE parts it will be around $15/20k...using non OE parts it would be $10/15k and making a more user friendly street motor in the 500hp range...600hp is a tall order with small cubic inches...this race motor will be rung out over 8000rpm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by straybullitt View Post
600 hp is a hell of a tall order for the specifications that you've outlined. Definitely going to need to take some pages out of Smokey Yunicks book on rulebook interpretation to get close to that!



Looking forward to the build!


That sounds like it will be a fun build. Definitely curious to see if you can accomplish stuffing all those ponies under the hood.


Sent from my iPhone using Mustang SRCaADDz(:53
fstbck70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2016, 09:00 AM   #392
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by straybullitt View Post
600 hp is a hell of a tall order for the specifications that you've outlined. Definitely going to need to take some pages out of Smokey Yunicks book on rulebook interpretation to get close to that!

Looking forward to the build!
As we are delving into rules and regulations it appears that in the cam and head area I'm pretty confident we can run aftermarket heads and the cam profile is a little gray with aspect to original OEM specs...with that said I believe a roller can be used along with aftermarket heads. With these pieces I'm confient 550hp can be reached and believe 600hp is attainable....IMHO
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2016, 10:27 AM   #393
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
Yesturday was a bad day.
6:15am, car fires right up... and dies. Nothing exceptional except that it won't start back.
After checking: no spark!
I went to work calling Uber

I borrowed a coil : no change.
Today I'm driving with POINTS!
Old stuff works!
I'm pissed that my Pertronix electronic sensor worked only for a few month and 4000 miles. Ok it was cheap, but still. That's not normal.
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2016, 10:40 AM   #394
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Was it the Petronix's unit that failed or the old distributor?
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2016, 12:54 PM   #395
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
It is the electronic Pertronix unit that I had installed in my original distributor.

I'm glad I kept the points assembly in my glovebox!
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2016, 04:08 PM   #396
Registered Member
Regular
 
Tyoung68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: concord
Region: California
Posts: 3,375
I'm disappointed with Pertronix, I've gone through two coils with 3000 miles.
Tyoung68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2016, 05:13 PM   #397
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
When they first came out some 35+ years ago they had problems and I've just considered them a band-aid ever since.
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 05:55 PM   #398
Registered Member
Regular
 
austinknoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego
Region: California
Posts: 1,147
Check timing, sounds like it could use more advance.
__________________
65 Mustang coupe
306 H/C/I, holley 4 barrel, T5, Hurst Shifter, Subframe connectors, 8.8 w/ 3.55 posi, 4 piston front disc brakes, SN95 rear disc brakes, shelby drop, 620 springs, Mideye 4.5 Leaf Springs, bilstein shocks.
austinknoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 06:34 PM   #399
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
I'm installing an MSD 6al and a billet MSD distributor with vacuum advance.
I'm putting the 6AL module in my glovebox.
I'm wondering if I leave the coil on the engine or if I move it in the starter relai area... What do you think?
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 06:43 PM   #400
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
I am assuming you just got the 6AL and not the 6AL-2.
Depends on which coil you got, the 8222 can be mounted in any configuration, upside down, sideways or straight up. The 8202 and 8223 should be mounted upright and try and use the shortest coil wire you can...meaning to mount it as close to the distributor as possible.
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 07:52 PM   #401
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
I have the msd blaster2 red coil.
So it sounds like I'm gonna leave it in the engine where it's at... Vertical, bolted on the cylinder head on cylinder#1.
I was just wondering if distance was more important than vibration.
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 10:32 PM   #402
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Distance, vibration and heat can kill a oil filled coil. Truthfully I haven't used an oil filled coil for almost 30 years. Epoxy coil do not suffer from vibration or heat...also the length of the coil wire can be critical with oil filled coils.
Part of the reason I've run the SS MSD coil for a very long time. I actually had the SS coil and my 7AL3 inside the car on the floor in front of where the passanger seat used to be on my Maverick...this made it much easier to work on...also much cleaner and cooler.
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2016, 07:24 AM   #403
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
Yesturday was my car's 50s bday!
She had a full MSD installed for the occasion.
But I faced a super weird situation: once the install finished the car wouldn't start!
I understood my mistake when I bypassed the starter relai to check for spark: the engine fired right up!
I had plugged my switched 12v at the back of the ignition switch... It cuts the power when cranking!
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2016, 07:39 AM   #404
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
About my engine...
Finally I think it's too expensive to start building a new engine from nothing.
I think I'm gonna rebuilt the 302 that's in the car.
It won't be as cool as a 347 but cheaper and probably enough.
I think of just a 302 rebuilt with a pair on good heads like AFRs, an airgap intake and a cam.
That will allow me to spend money on a good water pump, a new harmonic balancer, ceramic coated headers and 2.5" pipes thru rear valence.
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2016, 06:36 PM   #405
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
Question about an MSD box:
Where's the best place for it?
I thought it would be good to keep it safe inside the car, I've temporary fitted my box under the glovebox... But not sure there's enough cooling.
Should I put it under the hood where the water bag (for the windshield) is supposed to be?
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 10:57 AM   #406
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
So, now I have to choose my heads, pistons and cam...
Any idea?

Simple & complete Edelbrock rpm air gap top end?
AFR165? But which one? With what cam?
Trick Flow? But which one? And with what cam?
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 09:56 PM   #407
Registered Member
Regular
 
Tyoung68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: concord
Region: California
Posts: 3,375
I can't comment on performance wise, but I got a top end kit for a 390 and it seems like a quality kit, includes gaskets head/intake bolts anything that you need really except push rods.
Tyoung68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 11:26 PM   #408
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Before I get started I'll just say that the top end kit from Edelbrock is proven to make HP/TQ and is matched to all work together...If I were building a trouble free motor to make 350/400HP this is what I would choose.
I've been following this thread since it started...have given my own personal suggestions...so now I'll give my personal comment from 40+ years of building motors. Selecting the cam/heads/intake is the easy part and is kind of the icing on the cake so to speak...the hard part is finding a machine shop who understands and has built dozens of SBF's in the past and all of those motors they have built over time are still running. There are so many tricks of the trade and little nuances to building a SBF that you could write a novel...hopefully the machine shop you choose knows something about these.
The money you save not buying the block from Summit is what you are going to spend on machine work so I look at that part of the build as a wash...you will probably save $1000 dollars buy having your crank regound/polished and have the rods resized along with putting some good grade ARP bolts in the rods although the bottom end of an engine is where you should concentrate most if not all of your efforts for longevity as well as strength.
Also having your motor taken out, torn down, inspected, machined will take some time...which means your car will be down for maybe a month or even more depending on the machine shop and who you have put it together.
So, what is your budget again for this motor build?????
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 03:09 PM   #409
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
I understand how anoying it must be to trying to help me when I keep on changing my mind.
My problem is that I have never driven any modified engines... All I can do is find videos of builds to hear how they sound!

My initial idea was to build a 347. Finally I think I don't need to go there.

The project is:
Classic looking old mustang
Reliable (engine will be overhauled)
Fun to drive (that is done with global west stuff, disc brakes, good shocks)
I want just enough HP to have fun (but I'm talking numbers on things that I know nothing about)
I'm staying with a 8" rear end (that will be rebuilt with a Currie pumpkin, probably in 3.00 or 3.20 to keep my car highway friendly with my 1:1 gearbox)

For my engine, now that I've seen more cars in car shows, my fear is to get too loud!
In Europe rules (and habits) are not the same.
So I would like to do everything that is needed to have a good car but I don't want to give up that "original spirit".
I don't want a true resto mod.
I want my car to be a good old classic, not too loud at idle or under 2000. But I also want it to be a little "sportier" (or wilder) when I step on it.

My actual 302 has never really worked properly: since I've got it I've never been able to take it over 4000rpm. So my feeling is that pulling a little further would be better.

I'm now looking at the Eddy performer RPM package 2091... From what I've read the E-street package 2027 is far from the RPM level.

There can be 2 possibilities:
- maybe I'm gonna end up going too far and find myself with a loud "race car"...
- maybe I'm gonna end up regretting not to have done things right when it was time.

I'm so lost...
I'm afraid of choosing the little one and have regrets.
I'm afraid of the bigger one and realize I went too wild from what I had in mind.

The E-street claims 321hp - 337ft/tq
The rpm claims 367hp - 340ft/tq
power curve seems to be quite similar up to 4000...

I would like my car to be "Shelby 350 spirit", but I fear ending with a 350RRRR that you need ear plugs to cruise.
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 06:04 PM   #410
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT View Post
I understand how anoying it must be to trying to help me when I keep on changing my mind.
Yes, I would be lying if I said no. Most first time hot rodders have this same issue...I know I did some 40 years ago...we just need to get you where you are comfortable.
My problem is that I have never driven any modified engines... All I can do is find videos of builds to hear how they sound!
The internet is a great place to look but take it with a grain of salt as the real world doesn't always look like it does on a computer!
Remember one thing...you don't build a motor for that perfect sound because there is no perfect sound unless you are talking an F1 motor at 10k rpm. You build to perform for your specific need...and believe me that need is always changing. A world renowned engine builder told me one time..."If you don't like how the engine performs or sounds, change out the cam and start over", that's maybe a little too simplistic but true.


My initial idea was to build a 347. Finally I think I don't need to go there.
Lets just stop right here and I will ask this question one final time...How Much Money do you want to spend on this total project...taking into account the money you have already spent...just simple dollars and cents!

The project is:
Classic looking old mustang
Reliable (engine will be overhauled)
Fun to drive (that is done with global west stuff, disc brakes, good shocks)
I want just enough HP to have fun (but I'm talking numbers on things that I know nothing about)
I'm staying with a 8" rear end (that will be rebuilt with a Currie pumpkin, probably in 3.00 or 3.20 to keep my car highway friendly with my 1:1 gearbox)
Ok, the 8" stays. I would suggest looking into a new set of 31 spline axles for the new Currie pumpkin which should also be 31 spline posi. Why...because the old 28 spline are old and once you put in the Currie pumpkin the axles will be the weak link...THEY SHOULD BE CHANGED...IMHO
For my engine, now that I've seen more cars in car shows, my fear is to get too loud!
AGAIN, the sound is being made by the exhaust and why people like "LOUD" exhaust is beyond me. Back in my day if your car was not fast we used to say, "If it ain't fast chrome it"...well today I would change that to "If my car ain't fast make it louder". If you want a quite car make the exhaust quite...if you want it loud make it loud...the motor has very little to do with it. My first real fast street car had a custom exhaust system and when the car was idling all you could hear was the pinging of the headers...It doesn't have to be loud!!!!!!
In Europe rules (and habits) are not the same.
So I would like to do everything that is needed to have a good car but I don't want to give up that "original spirit". What do you mean by "Original Spirit?
I don't want a true resto mod.
I want my car to be a good old classic, not too loud at idle or under 2000. But I also want it to be a little "sportier" (or wilder) when I step on it.

My actual 302 has never really worked properly: since I've got it I've never been able to take it over 4000rpm. So my feeling is that pulling a little further would be better.
4000 rpm even for a stock 302 is too low and for a slightly mod'd 302 it should be around 6000rpm...NOT 4000rpm!

I'm now looking at the Eddy performer RPM package 2091... From what I've read the E-street package 2027 is far from the RPM level.
As for the difference between the 2091 and 2027...In my book the 2027 would be my pick. Yes, max rpm is 6500 so a safe limit would 6000rpm and if you missed a shift or got carried away it will be fine plus you build the motor for a 9.5 to 1 CR which in my mind is better. The 2091 has a max rpm of 5500rpm which is just not enough plus it's built around a 9.1 to 1 CR which is a little too low unless you are going to put a blower/turbo on it.I also believe the cam in the 2027 is going to sound a lot better than the 2091. Although I respect your thoughts...just don't agree with direction...it's your money, spend it like you want.
There can be 2 possibilities:
- maybe I'm gonna end up going too far and find myself with a loud "race car"...
For the third and final time...I could have a full race 347 motor and put a quite exhaust on it...loudness has nothing to do with the motor...it's in the exhaust!!!!!!
- maybe I'm gonna end up regretting not to have done things right when it was time. Yes, if you don't have a plan and stick to the plan you will always become LOST! As I said earlier...for me it's you can never have enough HP although HP costs money...how much money do want to spend???? Also, I can take a full race motor and make it quite with the right exhaust...it doesn't have to be loud to be fast!!!!!

I'm so lost...
I'm afraid of choosing the little one and have regrets.
I'm afraid of the bigger one and realize I went too wild from what I had in mind.
Neither of the above two Edelbrock Top End kits are very wild...in fact the 2091 isn't much better than the original Shelby GT350, just the heads are so much better...same goes for the 2027, the cam is just a little more aggressive and perfect for the street and even ocassional blast down the strip or even autocrossing.
The E-street claims 321hp - 337ft/tq
The rpm claims 367hp - 340ft/tq
power curve seems to be quite similar up to 4000...
Again, 4000rpm is just getting started for a SBF!
I would like my car to be "Shelby 350 spirit", but I fear ending with a 350RRRR that you need ear plugs to cruise.
If you put in a 500HP 347 then I would say you may be getting close to a 350R...Sit down and really have some soul searching and don't go on the internet anymore...you are just digging the hole deeper and trying to over think this simple build!!!!!!...IMHO
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 07:50 PM   #411
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 6,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT View Post

My actual 302 has never really worked properly: since I've got it I've never been able to take it over 4000rpm. So my feeling is that pulling a little further would be better.
In my opinion, this should be your immediate concern. Even a completely stock 302 should pull to 5000+ RPM's.
You can probably rule out the ignition system, since it is brand new... For now anyways.

What are the symptoms that occur when the engine begins to not want to pull past 4000 RPM? Does it act like it is running out of fuel?

And I agree with olerodder, the exhaust system can quiet down even the "hottest" engine. So don't worry about the sound level when making engine build decisions.
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 11:21 PM   #412
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
Oh yes, I'm digging!

So...
To build the 347 with the parts you kindly advise me:
World Product heads: 1280
347 Internals: 1200
Comp cam kit: 719
Intake: 300
That's way more than an Edelbrock cheap ****ty kit. Roughly it's 1000$ extra for 100hp.
Unfortunately I don't realize the extra pleasure of these extra horses....
Also you where telling me that such a 347 could reach easy 400hp? in addition to the fact that I don't realize how much extra pleasure it can bring me, I understand that I will have to spend some more on the rear end to handle it.

What I can tell now, after 7000miles with my old junkyard 302, is that it gave me a lot of pleasure! (I bet this engine would be around 150hp on a dino with all 8 cylinders)
The improvement of the handling/steering little by little has provided me with more pleasure driving.
But now that it handles correctly (I still have my full GlobalWest front suspension to install), I feel like a few more hp would be appreciated! (specially with my 2.80)
but will I be satisfied with 300 or do I want 4? Really hard question

And in addition, I have other questions.
Oil pan? is the original one correct?
Harmonic balancer? what's a correct choice? 3 or 4 bolts?
Oil pump? I read stuff about high flow, high pressure... Is a stock one ok?
Flywheel? Shall I keep my original one? Shall I have it machined?
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 12:23 AM   #413
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT View Post
Oh yes, I'm digging!

So...
To build the 347 with the parts you kindly advise me:
World Product heads: 1280
347 Internals: 1200
Comp cam kit: 719
Intake: 300
That's way more than an Edelbrock cheap ****ty kit. Roughly it's 1000$ extra for 100hp.
I thought you said you didn't want the 347 motor so I assumed you were just going to use your 302 as a core and rebuild it using the original crank...needs to be turned/polished/balanced...using your stock rods with ARP bolts...needs to be trued/sized/bushed/balanced...boring the block .030 and buying pistons...having them sized and the block honed/line honed...you can buy a new front harmonic balancer...use your flywheel and have it surfaced...use your oil pan and buy a windage tray....then buy the 2027 and you are mostly home free with your 350HP...maybe have the block surfaced to set the deck height and some other minor blue printing to the block and use mostly your old stuff, starter/alternator...oh, I forgot about the oil pump...just use a good blue printed one standard oil pump and if you want to really carve corners buy a roadrace oil pan with baffles so the oil doesn't run away from the oil pickup. So, now we have a mostly stock short block except blue printed and the Edelbrock 2027 top end kit....simple.
Unfortunately I don't realize the extra pleasure of these extra horses....
Also you where telling me that such a 347 could reach easy 400hp? A good running 347 can easily make 400HP and maybe 450 with careful selection of compression/cam/heads.in addition to the fact that I don't realize how much extra pleasure it can bring me, I understand that I will have to spend some more on the rear end to handle it. Again, you said you wanted to stay with the stock 8", the reason I said to build it with the Edelbrock 2027 top end...except use 31 spline axles.

What I can tell now, after 7000miles with my old junkyard 302, is that it gave me a lot of pleasure! (I bet this engine would be around 150hp on a dino with all 8 cylinders) Again, if you were happy with the performance of the stocker motor then just rebuild your 302 to 289HiPro specs and get 271HP...using your stock heads.
The improvement of the handling/steering little by little has provided me with more pleasure driving.
But now that it handles correctly (I still have my full GlobalWest front suspension to install), I feel like a few more hp would be appreciated! (specially with my 2.80)
but will I be satisfied with 300 or do I want 4? Really hard question
Maybe what you need to do is go rent a new Mustang with V6 which is 300hp and test drive it for a day...that should give you a feel for pressing on the gas and going faster than your current Mustang goes...just a suggestion.
And in addition, I have other questions.
Oil pan? is the original one correct? You can get a front sump...I assume yours is a front sump????...for $100, a new pickup for $50 and a new blueprinted oil pump for $150.
Harmonic balancer? what's a correct choice? 3 or 4 bolts? Whatever balancer yours has on it now is good although a new one with ARP front bolt/washer will cost $100.
Oil pump? I read stuff about high flow, high pressure... Is a stock one ok? Unless you are running a race motor a "blueprinted" standard pump will be great!
Flywheel? Shall I keep my original one? Shall I have it machined?
You just need to have yours resurfaced...and checked for cracks...a new stock one is about $90 and a billet one of your weight choice will be about $150.
As I mentioned before...how much money do you want to spend and how much HP do you feel comfortable with??? If you would decide to go for 400HP I would seriously think about the rearend although if you went with a Currie and locker along with 31 splined axles it might be ok.

This all hinges on your current 302 block...as long as it is rebuildable and you don't have to bore it more than 0.030 over stock you should be ok...if not then you will need another block...just thought I'd throw that in....
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 11:09 PM   #414
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
So I guess my 302 with good heads and a good intake will do the job.
I've put already way more money in that car than I initially thought I would.
300 to the wheels will keep it mild, I won't have to worry to much about the rear end... And I'll spend some more money on headers, pulleys, and a bigger radiator.

Are there better stuff I could go with than the Eddy package?

For headers, must they be installed before the engine or can I install them later?

I have a ScottDrake aluminum 2 rows but temperature gets too high when I run the AC... any idea of a good bigger radiator?
I've seen a big 4 rows but will it work better than my 2 rows?
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 12:00 AM   #415
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT View Post
So I guess my 302 with good heads and a good intake will do the job.
I've put already way more money in that car than I initially thought I would.
300 to the wheels will keep it mild, I won't have to worry to much about the rear end... And I'll spend some more money on headers, pulleys, and a bigger radiator.

Are there better stuff I could go with than the Eddy package?
Edelbrock makes good pieces and they are designed to work together...and have been dyno'd to work together. If you want to make more HP then I'd say AFR or TrickFlow would be my pick and they are very nice pieces...the prices are also $500 to $1000 more expensive.
Let me just say that I've been suggesting the 2027 Edelbrock...I have been saying that incorrectly and should have suggesting the Edelbrock 2091.Please also realize that you will be spending about $1000 to rebuild your 302 assuming it is rebuildable...you will need to have block hot tanked, mag'd and measured to make sure it is within spec's...have it bored 0.030 and buy new pistons/rings/pins and have the rods resized and ARP bolts installed in the rods. If the crank alignment is out of spec you will need to have block line honed. My suggestion is to find a good HiPerformance Machine shop and talk to them before you do any more planing...to get an idea of what the cost for doing the machine work andBlue Printing the block. . Of course you are going to have to pull the motor and disassemble it...you can take it to the shop unassembled and they will charge you for taking it apart.


For headers, must they be installed before the engine or can I install them later?

I have a ScottDrake aluminum 2 rows but temperature gets too high when I run the AC... any idea of a good bigger radiator?
I've seen a big 4 rows but will it work better than my 2 rows?
Yes, you did make a mistake on just putting a 2 row radiator back in the Mustang as it's no better than a stock one. This is what you should have put in.
1964 1965 1966 Ford Mustang 4 Row Core Champion Aluminum Radiator | eBay
I had one of these in my Maverick drag car and it never ever got over 190 even with back to back runs.
So, if you want the motor to stay cool this is what you need.What kind of fan do you currently have?
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 12:03 AM   #416
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT View Post
So I guess my 302 with good heads and a good intake will do the job.
I've put already way more money in that car than I initially thought I would.
300 to the wheels will keep it mild, I won't have to worry to much about the rear end... And I'll spend some more money on headers, pulleys, and a bigger radiator.
I would look into what the cost of 31 splined axles are and when you put the Currie third member in I'd change bearings and seals...it's cheap insurance.
Are there better stuff I could go with than the Eddy package?

For headers, must they be installed before the engine or can I install them later?

I have a ScottDrake aluminum 2 rows but temperature gets too high when I run the AC... any idea of a good bigger radiator?
I've seen a big 4 rows but will it work better than my 2 rows?
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 12:10 AM   #417
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Just one more thing...I am kind of leading you down a specific path knowing that this car is headed for Europe and if and when you break a part in the Mustang over there the Mustang could be on blocks for months waiting to get a replacement part from the USofA...it's cheaper in the long run to make sure the car is bullet proof before it goes OCS (Over Choppy Seas)...another of my more less know sayings is DIRTFooT (Do It Right The First Time)...so it's your money, you do what you want or can afford and I will no longer try and lead you in a specific direction.
If you want a specific list of what I mean by blue printing the block let me know and I'll PM you.
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 11:29 PM   #418
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Just a couple more areas of concern when you are spec'ing the machine work on the block and buying parts. This motor will be set up to run 4.030" overbore pistons with a 3.0" stroke.
In setting up the block you need to have all measurements for line hone, boring and decking taken off the crank center line...not off the pan rails of the block.
All of the numbers below are assuming you buy the Edelbrock 2091 top end kit and use the heads with a 60cc combustion chamber...
You need to end up with a deck height of 0.005" and when you purchase pistons make sure they have either +3cc or +4cc "effective dome volumn...a - sign infront of the piston dome volumn means it has a dome that extends above the piston and a + sign means the piston has a dish. What we are concerned about in the early stages of this build is Static Compression Ratio....later we can talk about Dynamic Compression Ratio. This becomes critical when you are trying to achieve a certain compression ratio...kind of like setting up a ride height on a car.
Also, when you start looking at head gaskets you want to make sure that the head gasket has a crush thickness of very close to 0.041"...this all works together to make sure you are running between 9.5 and 9.6 to 1 CR.
So, as long as the machine shop you choose understands and acknowledges these values and knows how to make them happen you are good to go.
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2016, 07:27 PM   #419
Registered Member
Regular
 
Uj_SPRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Antonio
Region: Texas
Posts: 218
Hi guys!
I didn't sleep much this week, I spent my nights trying to understand how to chose a cam... and also watching all the videos I could of different cams.
What appeared to me is that most engine builds are... kind of weird. Seems like everybody puts togeither random parts believing it's gonna perform great. I'm not so sure they do things right!

At the beginning of this post I was talking about HP... I thought that was like a goal or a trophy. I was wrong.
In fact, what I want is not big HP, it's a good car!
I love my car as it is today with it's worn out 302! I love the fact that the sound level is low, the fact I can drive down town in 4th gear at low speed...
So now what I want is just to freshen this engine and give it a little more "fun".
But I want my car to remain the nice oldie it is but adding a little sporty attitude.

I looked at comp cams' site: what appears to me is that cams around 268 seems to be designed for "daily performance" with little lobes and then "street machine" with bigger lift.
Lower duration is more for towing, bigger durations are for drag.

Do I need a big lift? I'm not that sure.
Not even sure that improved lift would bring any change under 4000rpm.
Maybe a tiny cam as the 268H (31-218-2) or the Edelbrock 2122 "performance plus" could match my daily driver better than a monster...
268H and Edy 2122 presents characteristics that are pretty similar.
So now I think of building my engine around one of these tiny cams.
It would give me that little rough idle for the sporty side, but it would allow me to keep good vacuum numbers for my brake booster and vacuum advance.
It will also allow my engine to roar up to 5500.
And if all the parts are well chosen to work togeither, I'm sure that I can get close to 300 with a reliable everyday driver.

I understand that with these tiny 0.45 lift I don't need good heads. A bit of porting on my original heads would probably do the job... But let's be crazy and find better ones.

What do you think of my analyze?
Uj_SPRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2016, 11:15 PM   #420
Registered Member

Regular
 
olerodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Corvallis
Region: Oregon
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT View Post
Hi guys!
I didn't sleep much this week, I spent my nights trying to understand how to chose a cam... and also watching all the videos I could of different cams.
What appeared to me is that most engine builds are... kind of weird. Seems like everybody puts togeither random parts believing it's gonna perform great. I'm not so sure they do things right!
I can understand someone who is not very familiar with building motors has started talking about HP and a lot of aftermarket parts to come full circle and now talking about just rebuilding the motor you have in the car now. I totally get that...so from now on I will not talk about HP any longer...just rebuilding the motor to achieve the 1966 289 HiPro 271 spec motor.
At the beginning of this post I was talking about HP... I thought that was like a goal or a trophy. I was wrong.
In fact, what I want is not big HP, it's a good car!
I love my car as it is today with it's worn out 302! I love the fact that the sound level is low, the fact I can drive down town in 4th gear at low speed...
So now what I want is just to freshen this engine and give it a little more "fun".
But I want my car to remain the nice oldie it is but adding a little sporty attitude.

I looked at comp cams' site: what appears to me is that cams around 268 seems to be designed for "daily performance" with little lobes and then "street machine" with bigger lift.
Lower duration is more for towing, bigger durations are for drag.
The more duration the more HP and the higher RPM to get that HP. What you want is exactly that, you don't want to go over 5500rpm so there is no need for 268 degrees of duration at .050". If you stick closer to 230 degrees of duration at .050" it will work just great and you will not have to ever go over 5500rpm!
Do I need a big lift? I'm not that sure.
You only need around .477" lift!
Not even sure that improved lift would bring any change under 4000rpm.
With this lift and duration of 230 degrees at .050 you will have better performance below 4000rpm than you do now.
Maybe a tiny cam as the 268H (31-218-2) or the Edelbrock 2122 "performance plus" could match my daily driver better than a monster...
268H and Edy 2122 presents characteristics that are pretty similar.
The 268 cam is going to make the car more sluggish below 4000rpm than the one I've selected...if you aren't sure then make a phone call to any of the cam manufactures and ask them and be prepared to have them ask you some very specific questions...like what is the compression, what is the combustion chamber size and valve size...etc.
So now I think of building my engine around one of these tiny cams.
You never ever design a motor around a cam...the motor must be designed first for a specific need, then bore and stroke, compression ratio, heads...on and on and on. When designing a motor build you design everthing to work together contrary to what you may have read or seen on the internet.
It would give me that little rough idle for the sporty side, but it would allow me to keep good vacuum numbers for my brake booster and vacuum advance.
It will also allow my engine to roar up to 5500.
And if all the parts are well chosen to work togeither, I'm sure that I can get close to 300 with a reliable everyday driver.
Refresh your motor with about 9.5 or 10.1 CR, give your heads a good valve job, machine for screw in rocker studs and guide plates, port for the exhaust and intake, cc the chambers and surface the heads for around 52cc per chamber, deck the block to around .005", line hone and bore .030" over and choose pistons with valve reliefs...turn the crank, resize the rods, blue print the block and oiling system, use the above cam, use a good intake and carb...should be fine.
I understand that with these tiny 0.45 lift I don't need good heads. A bit of porting on my original heads would probably do the job... But let's be crazy and find better ones.
Forget about better heads since you don't want to spend the money or make any HP, with a little work your stock heads will do.
What do you think of my analyze?
As I've said before...YOU'RE OVER ANALYZING THIS BUILD and making it three times more difficult that it needs to be!
Good Luck
olerodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Mustang Evolution > 4 Cylinder | V6 | Classic Mustangs || Tech and Talk > Classic Mustangs

« 67 restomod | - »
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Whats looks better a 1966 mustang coupe, or a 1967 mustang coupe? Carmi Classic Mustangs 3 12-17-2011 03:51 AM
Fiberglass pieces for '66 coupe and '68 coupe..where to buy? MustangMatt Mustang Audio & Video 2 01-19-2005 10:14 PM
87-93 5.0 Coupe Jayber Mustang Parts for Sale and Wanted 3 09-06-2004 07:41 AM
Got to drive a turbo coupe Tbird232ci The Bar 3 05-08-2004 01:39 PM
T-bird Turbo Coupe?? fast64 The Bar 3 11-05-2003 09:37 AM

» Like Us On Facebook



03:55 PM


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0

MustangEvolution.com is in no way associated with or endorsed by Ford Motor Company.