my 66 coupe...

[Uj_SPRT]

How thick is a head gasket?

My pistons are slightly dished, are those original style?

[olerodder]

Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT

So, C80E-6015A tells that my engine was built in Cleveland. They started using these blocks mid 67 when they ran out of 289s.
7M22 and 7M30 tells that the block was made December 30th 1967 and the heads on the 22nd.

But, in fact nothing tells me if this engine is a 289 or a 302! It depends ds on the internals.

Did you read my post to you're earlier thread....the block is a 68 or 69 block. The C80E-A means 1968 or 1969 302 with 4.0" bore, deck height of 8.206", 6 bolt bellhousing and there should be a 302 stamped into the lifter galley...where it was built is of no consequence.

Also, the C80E-M means the heads are 302 with nominal 63cc chambers and built between 1968 and 1970...again, where they were made is of no consequence.

[olerodder]

Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT

How thick is a head gasket?

My pistons are slightly dished, are those original style?

Are they slightly dished over the complete top with just a small ridge or are there valve reliefs...either 2 or 4 on top of the pistons. Do the pistons have any kind of part number on the pin boss?

[olerodder]

Here are a couple of pictures of stock pistons although the motor on the stand is an 86 or newer roller cam motor.
Thickness of head gasket varies although what you want to shoot for trying to get to 9.5 or 10.0 to 1 CR is about 0.041".
What is the one you took off?

[straybullitt]

Originally Posted by olerodder

Did you read my post to you're earlier thread....the block is a 68 or 69 block. The C80E-A means 1968 or 1969 302 with 4.0" bore, deck height of 8.206", 6 bolt bellhousing and there should be a 302 stamped into the lifter galley...where it was built is of no consequence.

Also, the C80E-M means the heads are 302 with nominal 63cc chambers and built between 1968 and 1970...again, where they were made is of no consequence.

According to this, it is possible that 302 block could have been built as a 289 from the factory.
https://classicmustang.com/casting-numbers/

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Mustang Evolution mobile app

[olerodder]

Originally Posted by straybullitt

According to this, it is possible that 302 block could have been built as a 289 from the factory.
https://classicmustang.com/casting-numbers/

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Mustang Evolution mobile app

Anything is possible with Ford. What are the casting numbers on the crank and rods?

[Uj_SPRT]

I didn't take enough pictures!

Oh my! I just understood something!
Those pistons are 2 and 4? so heads with 60 chambers are designed for old pistons and 58 chambers are for the newer design?
To get the same CR @ 9.5:1?

[Uj_SPRT]

So,
As this car might be upgraded (or not) later, I'd like to be able maybe to try a big cam such as an Extreme Energy 262/262 from Comp. not possible with the E-streets.
There's also the fact that I read stuff about guys installing the little Edy top end kit and saying that they might have done better choosing the big one...
So I think I'll spend the extra 500 and go with AFR165 heads.
What pistons should I go with?
Old 302 style? Or 80's style?
What would be the max lift before valve interference?

[olerodder]

Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT

I didn't take enough pictures!

Oh my! I just understood something!
Those pistons are 2 and 4? so heads with 60 chambers are designed for old pistons and 58 chambers are for the newer design?
Not sure what you have just said, "those pistons are 2 and 4...2 and 4 what????
Head chambers are made for various different volumes or cc's for a number of different reasons although not because of the piston or different years of pistons. Still not sure what you are trying to say.
To get the same CR @ 9.5:1?

[olerodder]

Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT

So,
As this car might be upgraded (or not) later, I'd like to be able maybe to try a big cam such as an Extreme Energy 262/262 from Comp. not possible with the E-streets.
There's also the fact that I read stuff about guys installing the little Edy top end kit and saying that they might have done better choosing the big one... Where are you reading this on the internet?????
So I think I'll spend the extra 500 and go with AFR165 heads.
Ok, lets slow down a little here...you need to decide on push rods and what type of roller rockers you are going to run. You will need determine the rocker arm geometry to select correct push rod length...this will require a little work after the motor is mostly together
What pistons should I go with?
Old 302 style? Or 80's style?
Not sure what you mean by Old Style and New Style pistons. First the machine shop needs to tell you how far they have to bore the block. Then you can choose a piston that will go with the chambers in you head and the correct deck height to give you the right compression ratio with whatever head gasket you choose.
What would be the max lift before valve interference?
It depends on which piston you choose and what compression ratio you trying to achieve...I would think that with good pistons with around +4 to +6cc's and valve reliefs that are deep enough you should be able to get to .600 lift without too much problem. When you set a up a motor with a new cam and valve train you need to clay the tops of the pistons in one or two cylinders with heads torqued down the valve train in the cylinders functional...when you turn the motor over the valves will contact the clay...take the head off and measure the clay and you should have a minimum of .050"...anything less than that could mean contact with the piston and valve if you ever floated a valve or over rev'd the motor. Let me suggest that you get a book on building the small block ford for performance...if you have a Barns and Noble near you they should have one or you can get it on line. I could spend hours talking about setting up a motor from scratch...the book will explain it in more detail and should be able to help you understand what it takes to put a high performance motor together....IMHO

[Uj_SPRT]

Ok, let's go!

I've ordered AFR 165, 58cc, 3/8" studs.
I think of Comp roller rockers 17043-16.
Would these rockers fit in a classic aluminum cast valve covers? Or do I need a tall one?

[olerodder]

Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT

Ok, let's go!

I've ordered AFR 165, 58cc, 3/8" studs.
I think of Comp roller rockers 17043-16.
Would these rockers fit in a classic aluminum cast valve covers? Or do I need a tall one?
Just remember that the economy roller rockers...die cast aluminum... can only withstand 350 to 400lbs of open vlave spring pressure before the possibility of failure can rear it's ugly head.
You bought some great great heads...don't cheap out buying cheap roller rockers...IMHO
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/c...view/make/ford

[straybullitt]

For what it's worth, I've had a set of Crane Energizer roller rockers in my big-block for 430k miles. Before that, I used them in small-block Chevy's with no failures.
There is no arguing with olerodder's logic of buying the best parts that you can afford, but on a street engine, roller rockers are sort of a "luxury item" in my opinion. They don't add any horsepower but they do help prevent the valves from rocking back and forth in the valve guides, increasing valve train longevity.

I'm not familiar with the small-block valve covers, but I was able to fit the Crane rockers under the stock big-block valve covers by drilling a hole in one of the baffles for clearance. You may be able to do something similar on your original valve covers if there are clearance problems.

[olerodder]

I understand what you are saying and don't totally disagree.
Being a mechanical engineer most of my life has made me look at manufactured products a little different...as I mentioned, for a die cast rocker to withstand more than 350/400lbs of open spring pressure is sketchy...not saying it hasn't been done...just that I wouldn't do it on a street car, hot rod, or race car...and if Julian does decide to go with a much wilder cam in future this would be a real concern.
Also, die cast is a much less forgiving material and not nearly as structurally stable as steel or forged aluminum which contributes to valve train instability...in a perfect world with unlimited funds a shaft rocker is more than 30% more stable than a stud mounted rocker...I've seen this proven on engine dyno's before with anywhere from 15 to 30hp difference.
So, spending $1500 on a pair of heads and then spending a buck & 1/2 just doesn't make sense to me...kind of like cutting of your nose to spite your face...IMHO

[Uj_SPRT]

Hi my forum friends!
So, the news:
Engine really needed care.
There were mixed pistons inside, the 2 types you showed me! 4 originals and 4 more dished. Stupid red necks...
All exhaust valve seats tired
The original pistons all had cracked skirts
Original bore.
When over boring to 4.03 we found some rust in cylinder #1... new sleeve has been installed today.
My great idea of choosing AFR heads was maybe not the best one, I didn't realize that they produce them on demand! So 2 weeks after ordering they are not even on their way yet. They have just been ported yesturday, still not assembled.

You know what? I've been thinking about the rear end that will follow the engine build.
My initial idea was to go for 3.00
Now I doubt.
Do I really want to highway road trip?
Would 3.50 be too short? That was the ratio on GT350H with manual 4...

Next week I'll finally know if yes or no my US contract is renewed for 2017:
If I stay, I might sell my toploader and find myself a T5.

[olerodder]

Surprising as it may seem the only "Real" GT350H I've seen had an automatic. It also had 3.50's with Detroit Locker. Even with the 3 spd C4 it was a nice car to drive although I didn't drive it on the highway. The 289 HiPo cars I owned both had 4 spds and one came with factory 9" and 3.50's and the other one and 4.56's...the 4.56's were not factory although they made the car a real "Stop Light Bandit" in the city. Back in the day...almost 40 years ago...my little 289 dusted off more than one muscle car with 100 more cubic inches from stop light to stop light!
They did have an optional 3.89 rear end although with a 4 spd it's a little too much on the highway.
If you are going to go with a 5 spd my suggestion would be to step up to 3.73's as 3.50's with a 5 spd will give you great top end performance and mediocre around town driving. I would think the 3.73's in 5th gear would still allow you to cruise the highway at 70 mph at around 2400 RPM...just a thought. I had 3.73's in my 97 Cobra and on the highway in 5th I could still get close to 26 mpg.
Just a thought...IMHO

[Uj_SPRT]

4.56??? How many miles on the highway before blowing a gasket?

3.50 would be 80 at 3700rpm...
3.73 and T5? Hum, new idea to think about!

[Uj_SPRT]

[olerodder]

In over 50 years of building motors I've never had a motor fail...when you take your time and buy the best parts you can afford and make sure everything is as perfect as you can get it a motor will last a long time...I had a 408 stroker last over 7 race seasons without a refreshen and it still turned very low 10 second times in the quarter...so although I drove the Comet only a handful of times on the highway it was built as street car not road car. The motor was real 289 HiPro and blue printed with a special grind Schneider #SF309 solid lifter cam. From about 3000 to 8000 rpm she would really sing.
This is my Comet when I had it for sale in 1973. It turned 12.70's with slicks in the quarter...that was back in 1973.
Notice the trailer hitch!!!!!

[olerodder]

Julian,
You were right on the RPM, I was thinking of my 97 Cobra when I had the Tremec 6spd in it...that was about 2400 rpm at 70 mph. With the 5 spd it was about 2800 rpm...At the time I had 275x40/17's on all four R wheels.
I believe you have 225x60/15 tires so with 3.50's it would be almost 3700 rpm...a little to fast for traveling long distances on the Autoroute...but killer around town!

[Tyoung68]

I cruise with 3.73? I'm pretty sure, but at 70 I'm at 4k rpm in my little six. And hold around 180 temp. If you aren't going to be cruising on the highway a lot i would focus more on sprited driving and getting a gear that will be in your power band.

[DaddyO]

My 66 has a 9" rear end with 3.5 gears running a c-4 tranny. Photo shows mph and rpm. 2 .

[Tyoung68]

I have a c4 in mine too. It's a hard choice, I want my car to be as close to a DD as possible but I also want a "performance" car. Gotta find the fine line. I like my 373s not bad on the freeway and can still get in my power band and stay there through the corners.

[Uj_SPRT]

Well the C4 is overdriven, the toploader isn't...

[straybullitt]

The C4 has a 1.00:1 high gear... The same as a toploader.

[olerodder]

I've had both C4's and Toploaders...just depends on what gears are in the Toploader and with C4's it's all about stall speed on the converter.
Just so you know C4's are the smallest and lightest weight automatic out there and have been for most of the 50+ years of it's existence. Built right the C4 can withstand 700hp and easily adapted to almost any motor...I had one behind my 315hp 289 cubic in V8 Flathead...built by Performance Automatic...great transmission although not as robust as my Powerglide in the Maverick...IMHO

[Uj_SPRT]

I'l see how the rebuilt engine behaves...
Before dropping it, my dying 302 didn't rev much more than 4000, I believe that with the Nostalgia plus cam it will be more fun.

I have weird numbers in mind: my first car was a french tiny car (like 2/3 of my mustangs weight) with only 1.0L 60hp and a 4 speed. I remember that I was beating it on the highway at 100mph for 4000rpm... which would be a 3.00 on my mustang.
That's why 3.00 was my initial idea, but the more I read things, the more I realize that's not the good way to go on this project.

[olerodder]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

My 66 has a 9" rear end with 3.5 gears running a c-4 tranny. Photo shows mph and rpm. 2 Attachment 205909Attachment 205910Attachment 205911.

Very nice Mustang!
Have you ever checked the oil pressure sender against a manual oil pressure gauge to see really how much oil pressure you have. Rule of thumb is 10 lbs oil pressure for every 1000 rpm...at least on older motors...and at 100mph and over 4500rpm your oil pressure gauge reads on the low side for that many rpm...just a thought.

[DaddyO]

Thanks olerodder. No I haven't checked against a regular gauge. It's a 347 cu. in. motor with about 450+ hp. The gauge is original but a new sender. It starts off reading a bit higher but being in Texas and having a lead foot the motor heats up pretty quick and the reading drops off from its initial reading. Trying to remember the stall speed on my torque converter....2900 maybe. Tranny is a C4 super street fighter from TCI. Gotta love it

[Uj_SPRT]

Hi guys!
after a few problems like valve covers that wouldn't clear the roller rockers, a heat shield protecting my starter motor that caught on fire at the first engine start... engine now has 100 miles!
😊
So, it's a 302, all original style short block with hypereutectic pistons, AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock rpm intake (not the air gap), nostalgia 271 H cam, Edelbrock 600cfm.

It seams to work good, Sounds great!
But for now I drive it carefully and don't rev it yet.

Now I've to replace my headers:
I run old Patriot 3Y
1-1/2 > 1-3/4 > 2-1/2
And 2" pipes.
What would be your choice between these for my street use:

Doug's 3Y:
1-5/8 > 2 > 2-1/2
Doug's long tubes:
1-5/8 > 2-1/2
Headman long tubes:
1-5/8 > 3
JBA long tubes:
1-3/4 > 3

And can I stay with the 2" pipes?

[olerodder]

I hope you have changed the oil/filter after the 100 miles and also assume that you broke in the cam buy running the motor about 2000/2500 for 15/20 minutes before you ever took it out on the street.
Don't baby the motor or you risk the issue of not having the rings seat properly. You should have already had it up to 4500 rpm at least three or four times...just make sure to cool the motor down after doing these short bursts of 2000/4500rpm blasts. You really need to seat all of the components of the motor.
You just need to drive it normally and try and keep the motor under 5000rpm for the first 500 miles.
With the AFR heads I would go long tube with 1-5/8" primary tubes, 3" collector necked down to 2-1/2" exhaust...2" is just too small...IMHO

[Uj_SPRT]

Thanks!
Yes I did let it run 2000 for a while before anything else.

For the exhaust, I think of going for the Doug's big 3Y with 1-5/8 primaries.
I think 3Y is a good design to help lower end torq. Also they don't hang down too low (my car is very low)
Of course long tubes will give higher numbers but in real life I'm not driving a lot at higher RPMs.

I guess you are right saying that the 2" tubing is a tiny bit too small. I might go for 2-1/4 or 2-1/2... not decided yet.

Another question:
What would be the proper ignition timing?
I've just had a look, I'm at 12 at idle with vacuum advanced unplugged.
Is that "initial timing" or is it with the vacuum plugged?

What is total timing? At what RPM? I have springs for my msd, I guess that'S what they are for?

And when I let go the accelerator and use engine brake, what does it meen if it pops a bit in the exhaust?
Timing or carburation?

[Uj_SPRT]

Otherwise the engine seams to be still happy.
I'm waiting for an Edelbrock RPM intake to replace that old Edelbrock 289 that has runners the size of my little finger. I'm sure the difference will be huge!

Tomorrow I should receive valve cover spacers : Actually I have nice ford racing valve covers but they are too small for the roller rockers: I had to take off the baffles that were inside and use 2 cork gaskets sets... so my breather is spilling a little bit of oil and I wonder how the pcv valve handles it.

Almost 200 miles already!

[olerodder]

Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT

Thanks!
Yes I did let it run 2000 for a while before anything else.

For the exhaust, I think of going for the Doug's big 3Y with 1-5/8 primaries.
I think 3Y is a good design to help lower end torq. Also they don't hang down too low (my car is very low)
Of course long tubes will give higher numbers but in real life I'm not driving a lot at higher RPMs.

This is what I'd get. They are a little more expensive than cheap steel Try-Y's although they should last longer than the car...https://www.dallasmustang.com/parts/...8-289-302.html

I guess you are right saying that the 2" tubing is a tiny bit too small. I might go for 2-1/4 or 2-1/2... not decided yet.

You should use the same size pipe as the collector size, and in your case it should be 2-1/2", don't get 2-1/4 as it's too small.

Another question:
What would be the proper ignition timing?
I've just had a look, I'm at 12 at idle with vacuum advanced unplugged.
When you have 12 initial with the vacuum unpluged, what is the total when you rev the motor up to around 3000 rpm?????
Is that "initial timing" or is it with the vacuum plugged? Initial timing is at idle with the vacuum unplugged.

What is total timing? At what RPM? I have springs for my msd, I guess that'S what they are for?
If you have an MSD distributor they have instructions that give the curve which dictates which springs you use. If you don't have the instructions you can go on the internet and get them. It would be helpful to know what the curve is the way the motor is running...just do a little internet prowling.

And when I let go the accelerator and use engine brake, what does it meen if it pops a bit in the exhaust?
What does your tail pipe color look like and what do the plugs look like. To pull a motor down on compression for stopping is hard on the motor, this is not a diesel, it's a gas motor and you should use your brakes not your pistons to stop...
Timing or carburation?

You need to pull the plugs and read them. Go out for a drive and get the motor up to temperature...then make some short bursts from say 2000 to 4000...be close to home when you do this so you can coast into the driveway and shut the motor off...pull the plugs and see what they look like. Since I have no idea what the compression is on your motor since you rebuilt it I'd hesitate a guess and say the jetting in the carb is running on the lean side. If you are only at 12 degrees initial I'd hesitate a guess and say total is around 30 or less which I think is not enough...usually a SBF likes more in the 34 to 36 range...assuming you have the right jetting in the carb. If you put the car on a chassis dyno they could tell you exactly where your air/fuel ratio is and what to change, timing or carb jetting...IMHO

[olerodder]

Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT

Otherwise the engine seams to be still happy.
I'm waiting for an Edelbrock RPM intake to replace that old Edelbrock 289 that has runners the size of my little finger. I'm sure the difference will be huge!
Don't be too worried if the difference in performance is not huge...remember...you need to tune this motor and anything you change will effect everything else. If it were me, I'd port match the new intake to your new heads...but that's just me.

Tomorrow I should receive valve cover spacers : Actually I have nice ford racing valve covers but they are too small for the roller rockers: I had to take off the baffles that were inside and use 2 cork gaskets sets... so my breather is spilling a little bit of oil and I wonder how the pcv valve handles it.
Running two cork gaskets will not seal very well and the PVC valve is probably sucking a lot of extra air....get the motor sealed up so it doesn't leak then start your tuning...as I said, a chassis dyno would find the issue in short order and working with plugs, timing, changing carburetor jets can take a whole day or more...
Almost 200 miles already!

You have changed the break-in oil/filter...right?????