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Old 06-02-2016, 01:53 PM   #211
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If you are restoring a concourse GT/K car then this rearend would needed to bring it to show quality....putting a $950 repo of a 66 K Mustang housing in your car is ludicrous....just get/find a used 9".....get the parts needed and put it in over the weekend.
Why wouldn't a 9" fit in the Mustang???? I put a K 9" in my 65 Convertible with no issues.....I pulled it out of wrecked K code coupe............what is different from the 8" still in your car?????


289 High Performance Mustang - Rearend Info
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:09 PM   #212
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I'm not doing a concourse restoration, I don't even know if I really need a 9".

I've seen Versailles rearend for more than 1500$ and I will need to get a shorter shaft I think, plus I'll need to change the U bolts, plus the shock plate, plus the plate that holds my traction bars... Plus finally find a positrac.
So a Versailles doesn't seem to be as cheaper as a bolt on HiPo 9"...

What is likely to break on my 8"?
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:12 PM   #213
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Sometimes it's hard to see beyond just getting a motor and putting it in....that's only part of equation....the other part is making sure the chassis and running gear are up to the task....buy the time you spend good money putting a posi in the 8" you will have 1/2 the cost of 9" paid for.....and it will outlast the 8" hands down.

QP FORD 1965-1966 MUSTANG 9 Inch Housing & Axle Package

So, if you don't want to spend the money don't....you can start saving up for when it does breaks....IMHO
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:21 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT View Post
I'm not doing a concourse restoration, I don't even know if I really need a 9".

I've seen Versailles rearend for more than 1500$ and I will need to get a shorter shaft I think, plus I'll need to change the U bolts, plus the shock plate, plus the plate that holds my traction bars... Plus finally find a positrac.
So a Versailles doesn't seem to be as cheaper as a bolt on HiPo 9"...

What is likely to break on my 8"?
A Versaille rearend in todays market is just not worth putting in because you can modify a stock 9" to do the same thing for a lot less.
The link I gave you shows a 9" housing with axles for your car, then you need to buy the pumpkin with posi....maybe $500 and brakes another $125...so you would have $1300/1400 buying new....I think you could find something used for half that price....IMHO
Yes, you will need to change U joints....that's a piece of cake....no you don't need to change driveshafts...yes you will have to modify YOU"RE SHOCK PLATE to accept the 3" U bolts...also a piece of cake....you can buy a pumpkin with posi anytime as long as the stock 9" comes with gears....and you will need to change brakes...also easy.
As I said earlier, just leave the stock rear end in and when it breaks put something else in.
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:22 PM   #215
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You know that I'm a good guy doing things in the right order. Handling, suspension and brakes before thinking of HP... So now is the good moment for me to decide if a 9" is on my shopping list before spending money on a 347.
Swapping the engine will be the final achievement of my project.

I think I understand the idea that if I install a 347, my 8" rearend will be some kind of grenade under my car.
So let's try to see what are the different 8.8" or 9" possibilities and start looking for a good reasonable deal.
there are 3 things involved:
- the price of the rearend itself
- the price of the install (shaft, brakes...)
- the price of a posi for it.
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:27 PM   #216
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If it breaks on a French road, the car will probably stay on jack stands for more than a year!
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Old 06-02-2016, 03:06 PM   #217
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It's a tough decision.
If you install a 9 inch, you won't ever need to worry about any future power mods. But since you don't have any immediate plans to drag race the car, you may never need the additional strength of the 9 inch.
Really, the durability of the rear end will depend upon how well the car hooks up, and how much of the power actually makes it to the ground, rather than being converted into tire smoke.
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Old 06-02-2016, 04:52 PM   #218
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Whenever you build a street rod, hot rod, road race or drag race car....just like in mechanical engineering....you never just build something to take 100% of a load, you build to take 120% or 130% load....if you want to leave the motor stock then by all means leave the 8" in there....if you something with twice the HP of stock then build it to take the abuse. Having lived in Europe for a number of years I can tell you that if you break a mechanical part the car will sit....and sit....and sit until you can afford to by the part...which will be 2/3 or even 4 times more expensive than what you can buy it hear.

So, for me there is no more discussion.........either leave the motor stock and leave the OE rearend alone...or...built the motor and build the drivetrain to take added HP/TQ.

I've got some work to do and I'll answer your questions later tonight...
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:50 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uj_SPRT View Post
You know that I'm a good guy doing things in the right order. Handling, suspension and brakes before thinking of HP... So now is the good moment for me to decide if a 9" is on my shopping list before spending money on a 347.
Swapping the engine will be the final achievement of my project.

I think I understand the idea that if I install a 347, my 8" rearend will be some kind of grenade under my car.
So let's try to see what are the different 8.8" or 9" possibilities and start looking for a good reasonable deal.
there are 3 things involved:
- the price of the rearend itself
- the price of the install (shaft, brakes...)
- the price of a posi for it.
A couple of things about the 8.8". It has C clips that hold the axles in and they should really be addressed with C Clip Eliminators, the second is that you have to pull apart the whole rear end to change gears and third is that the axle tubes are not welded in, so you need to weld them the full circumference of the tube.
The strongest 8.8" comes with 31 spline axles...like the Ford Explorers...and they are getting rarer to get out of junk yards for this reason....the rest of the 8.8" come with 28 spline and are about 25% weaker....mainly due to the 31 splines.
As comparison, a 9" with 28 spline axles is just as strong as a 31 spline 8.8".
TBC
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Old 06-02-2016, 06:13 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
1967 and newer Mustangs, Mavericks, Ranchero's etc. used this type of adjustment, earlier Fords used shims. I used the centric along with Global West LCA's and adjustable strut bar on my 70 Maverick drag car for many years.

This kit converts it to the 67+ later way of adjustment.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:27 PM   #221
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This kit converts it to the 67+ later way of adjustment.
Sorry Ty, I've been working on a Mustang suspension for a friends 55 Ford Pickup and I kept thinking of the UCA's and adjusting with shims....You are totally correct!
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:29 PM   #222
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So, for me there is no more discussion.........either leave the motor stock and leave the OE rearend alone...or...built the motor and build the drivetrain to take added HP/TQ.
.
Or... Julien could install the heads, cam and intake onto his current engine and keep the 8 inch. With a good aftermarket differential, it should hold up to the torque produced by a street-build 302/306. It's generally accepted that a built 8 inch will handle 375-400 hp... I don't think that a NA 302 will be able to exceed that.
I understand that the shipping to Europe will be expensive, but if his 8inch breaks, it is likely going to be the center-section that fails, so it's not like a complete rear end will need to be shipped.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:24 AM   #223
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Or... Julien could install the heads, cam and intake onto his current engine and keep the 8 inch. With a good aftermarket differential, it should hold up to the torque produced by a street-build 302/306. It's generally accepted that a built 8 inch will handle 375-400 hp... I don't think that a NA 302 will be able to exceed that.
I understand that the shipping to Europe will be expensive, but if his 8inch breaks, it is likely going to be the center-section that fails, so it's not like a complete rear end will need to be shipped.
It's just not the shipping...which is expensive but also taxes and duty fees going through customs....so if he is going to leave the 8" in the car when it goes back to France I suggest putting a lot of spare 8" parts in the trunk....
I don't want to be the Angle of Doom here....I just can't get my head wrapped around spending good money after bad on trying to make an 8" rear end handle a heavy right foot with a mild 400HP motor and manual trans. He could probably spend the same money on an 8.8" and have a rear end that would stand up to 400+HP.
Unless the 8" is set up correctly putting it behind a 400HP motor he would have to use a raw egg between your foot and gas pedal....as far as I'm concerned it would be like pulling the pin on a live gernade and tying a rubber band around the trigger and setting it on a slanted driveway....it may or may not explode as it rolls away from you.....are you willing to take the chance.....I'm not one to take that kind of risk.....and in all of my almost 40 years of racing I have never broken a motor/trans/rearend......maybe because of being a mechanical engineer or maybe it's because I was poor when I was young and couldn't afford to replace parts that broke....
A good aftermarket posi unit with gears for the 8" will run close to $900....and if he would keep the 8" and spend that kind of money he might as well spend another $300/400 and get some good 31 spline axles. At this point he will have about $1200+ in an 8" with small bearings. So.....this is certainly an alternative.
400+HP out of N/A 302/306 was pretty much the norm a decade ago. Today if you can keep an OE block together you go over 500HP and I've seen some Man-O-War blocks come close to 600HP.....although those were race only motors they were N/A.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:11 AM   #224
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Woooo, so it's the center part that breaks? Is that what I see named as "third member"?
What is 28 vs 31 splines? I know I have a 28 splines, I guess it's the size of the shaft bringing power to the rearend?

My initial idea is to have a fun torquy engine, not a beast. I know that the price of one HP increases exponentially...
I was talking about 350rwhp, thinking about getting a little better than a HiPo, but maybe I don't even need that much to have fun... From experience I know that HP is far from doing everything: chassis does most of it and driver is not in rest!
The car being pretty light weight...
I have no idea what I actually have under my hood: might be closer to 150 than 200!

Is there a way to upgrade gently an 8"? Like replacing the center part by good quality product instead of a 50 year old one full of micro cracks?

Concerning a posi, I know I don't need it driving 65 on the strait highways in Texas, but on little French roads it can be a good security on a car that has no electronic embedded system and absolutely no weight on the rear...
I might be wrong but I feel like this is a "must have" on my project.

FYI, concerning the shipping, as it's an antique and that it has been mine for more than 6 month, taxes are not so important. Total shipping + US taxes + French taxes should be around 2800$... Which represents more or less the extra price of this kind of American classics in Europe. So that's pretty fair.
And anyway I don't wanna sell and as it is and gonna continue being my everyday driver for a year or two, that's the game! I can't expect driving for free.
What has to be done, has to be done.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:15 AM   #225
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By the way, thank you so much guys for discussing all that with me!
I couldn't dream of better help!!!
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:34 AM   #226
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I agree. I also detest throwing good money after bad...
And if this were you pondering this question, I would be strongly suggesting that you make the upgrade to a 9... Because you would surely be, frequently, running the car at the drag strip, tearing up parts.
Julien mentioned in his first post that he wasn't really interested in drag racing the car. He wanted to build a fun car to rally, and cruise around with his friends in their Mini Coopers, and such. I don't think that he really needs a full-on "bulletproof", "take-anything-that-you-can-throw-at-it" race car... Not yet anyway. (We all know how THAT goes!) lol
And I don't think that he will have to drive with an egg on the accelerator pedal. It's doubtful that all of the torque will make it to the pavement using street tires.
Just as you don't want to be the "Angel of doom", I don't want to seem like an eternal optimist. Julien's 8 inch could possibly be scattered all over the street during the first test drive after engine modifications. But it also might be trouble free for the entire duration of his ownership... And if the latter happens to be the case, that would make a 9 inch swap a complete waste of money.

I wouldn't let that damned 8 inch stop me from adding some power.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:58 AM   #227
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Woooo, so it's the center part that breaks? Is that what I see named as "third member"?
What is 28 vs 31 splines? I know I have a 28 splines, I guess it's the size of the shaft bringing power to the rearend?

My initial idea is to have a fun torquy engine, not a beast. I know that the price of one HP increases exponentially...
I was talking about 350rwhp, thinking about getting a little better than a HiPo, but maybe I don't even need that much to have fun... From experience I know that HP is far from doing everything: chassis does most of it and driver is not in rest!
The car being pretty light weight...
I have no idea what I actually have under my hood: might be closer to 150 than 200!

Is there a way to upgrade gently an 8"? Like replacing the center part by good quality product instead of a 50 year old one full of micro cracks?

Concerning a posi, I know I don't need it driving 65 on the strait highways in Texas, but on little French roads it can be a good security on a car that has no electronic embedded system and absolutely no weight on the rear...
I might be wrong but I feel like this is a "must have" on my project.

FYI, concerning the shipping, as it's an antique and that it has been mine for more than 6 month, taxes are not so important. Total shipping + US taxes + French taxes should be around 2800$... Which represents more or less the extra price of this kind of American classics in Europe. So that's pretty fair.
And anyway I don't wanna sell and as it is and gonna continue being my everyday driver for a year or two, that's the game! I can't expect driving for free.
What has to be done, has to be done.
That 375-400 hp that I quoted, is for a rearthat has been upgraded with a quality aftermarket differential. As olerodder said, you may as well upgrade the axles to 31 splines while your at it. And it will cost a bit... And still not be "bulletproof". But it is less expensive than a 9 swap. And a hell of a lot easier!
28 vs 31 spline axles refers to the number of splines on the end of the axle where it fits into the differential. The more splines, the stronger they are.
A posi-traction/limited-slip is definitely a must have for the twisty roads.
The "center-section" is the part that unbolts from the middle of the axle housing. It is also sometimes referred to as the "pumpkin". It is the likely point of failure. Specifically, the differential itself will fail.
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Old 06-03-2016, 09:42 AM   #228
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If you just want a fun car to drive leave it the way it is.
Putting in an aftermarket third member with posi and 31 spline is going to cost you close to $1000.00 US....buying the 31 spline axles will set you back another $300/400 US. So, this will be a good weekend job for you....take your rearend out, take it totally apart...take the brakes off, take the axles out then the third member/pumpkin...then take the seals and bearings out....if you don't have the tools to take the bearings out hopefully you can take to a rearend shop and have them hot tank the housing and take the bearings out and press new ones in...then while you have everything apart you can replace the brakes and have the drums turned....pretty simple and it can be done in just few hours.
Just a word about putting it back together....when you put the pumpkin in make sure you put a bead of sealer on the axle housing...then put the gasket on...then run another bead on top of the gasket before you drop the third member on...also, the rearend shop will have cooper washers and new nuts....get them and use them....a lot of people just use metal washers...metal washers do not crush and you do want them to crush instead of the outer pumpkin housing....
So.....lets say we will build a motor with less than 350HP....and as long as you don't start doing donuts of reving the motor and side stepping the clutch and just drive with care it should last a long time.
What gears do you have in the car now?????
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Old 06-03-2016, 10:10 AM   #229
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What gears do you have in the car now?????
That's an excellent question !
I have no idea.
I have a top loader close ratio 4 speed (apparently out of a Bronco, and with the shaft shorten to fit a small block)
I have 225/60/15 tires
And I run 80-82 mph (according to a speedometer app on my iphone) at 3000 rpm (according to an AutoMeter gauge)

It doesn't seem to be bad... it seems a bit short when I'm cruising fast, but it's just a 4 speed.

I need to find my ratios because my speedo it completely wrong, I need to change the gearing on the speedo cable.
speedo tells me a 65 or a tiny bit more when GPS tells me 80.
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Old 06-03-2016, 10:13 AM   #230
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Ford Toploader close ratio on Wikipedia:

Close 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
Ratio 2.32 1.69 1.29 1.0
Tooth Count 32 28 25 23
Counter Gear Tooth Count 15 18 21 25

So... if my ratio in 4th gear is 1.0, that means my shaft goes 3000rpm when runing 130km/h (82mph), my wheels are 651mm diameter in theory, so they do 2045mmin one rev, so they turn 1060rmp...
(sorry guys, I'm used to metric system...)

Is a 2.8 ratio possible ?
seems that yes, it looks like the original gearing on most 66 Mustangs.
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:32 AM   #231
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Jack the car up and turn the tire one revolution....count the times the U joint goes around....no guessing....
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:42 AM   #232
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Lift the rear tires off of the ground and put a piece of tape on the drive shaft as a reference point. Then spin the tire one full revolution while counting how many times the drive shaft rotates.
That will give you a good idea of the rear end gear ratio.
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:43 AM   #233
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Lol.
Olerodder beat me to it!
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:48 AM   #234
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by calcul I end up with a ratio of 2.831393298
isn't that enough to tell I have a 2.8 gearing ?

Do you really think I have a doubt and that I'm gonna get dirty to confirm?
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:49 AM   #235
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Ford Toploader close ratio on Wikipedia:

Close 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
Ratio 2.32 1.69 1.29 1.0
Tooth Count 32 28 25 23
Counter Gear Tooth Count 15 18 21 25

So... if my ratio in 4th gear is 1.0, that means my shaft goes 3000rpm when runing 130km/h (82mph), my wheels are 651mm diameter in theory, so they do 2045mmin one rev, so they turn 1060rmp...
(sorry guys, I'm used to metric system...)

Is a 2.8 ratio possible ?
seems that yes, it looks like the original gearing on most 66 Mustangs.
According to my RPM calculator app; a 2.80 rear with a 25.6 in tire height at 82 mph would yield 3013 rpm's. 2.80 was an option for 1966.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:02 PM   #236
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Well....I'm totally "Ole School" and if I can't touch it/feel it/see it with my own two hands or eyes.....I ain't believing it.
I'm old enough that I was there when they first came out with IBM820 and the only operating system was DOS.....like we used to say then...."Garbage in...garbage out".
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:38 PM   #237
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So 2.8 is the longest I can get on the 8" ?
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:03 PM   #238
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For 66;
Equa-lock or open....meaning posi or non-posi
2.80
2.83
3.0
3.20
3.25
3.50
3.89
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:05 PM   #239
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How weird, just to get a rough idea of parts price I've looked a little on usual part sites : I don't even find pinion & ring with 2.80!
I also find currie complete third members for 8" but not with 2.8 ratio, it starts at 3.00
I don't feel like shorter would be so interesting, except if I use an overdrive unit.
In my country, highways are 130km/h which is 82mph, but everybody goes 90. Driving on the highway at 3000rpm seems good to me, shorted gearing would lead to higher rpm...

Well, 3.00 would only push me 200rpm higher. Not bad.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:23 PM   #240
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For 66;
Equa-lock or open....meaning posi or non-posi
2.80
2.83
3.0
3.20
3.25
3.50
3.89
2.83?
that might be what I have...
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:26 PM   #241
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There is just no call for anything less than 3.00's.
If you want to cruise the Autoroute at speed my suggestion would be to get a 5spd. A couple of guys with Mustangs in Germany did go from 4spd to 5spd for that reason. Personally 3k rpm is a little much to be pushing a mostly stock 302 for long periods of time.....you really should be between 1850rpm and 2200rpm in overdrive with 3.25's.....so lets keep the motor you've got, keep the 8" rearend and change the 4spd to a 5spd.....or 6spd would be even better.
I drove my old 14TrakPak with 3.73's 600+ miles on the Autoroute between Corvallis, OR and Redding, CA.....pushed the car for over 12 miles of corner carving sometimes hitting redline in 5th.....still pulled down over 20mpg with 3.73's and 5th gear in the 6spd is 1 to 1. There is a lot be said about the Coyote engine and fuel injection!
Now we've gone full circle....from building a stroker motor....suspension....rear end....transmission.....now we are back to the motor.....You my friend have a lot to think about and a direction to take....in the future.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:59 PM   #242
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2.83?
that might be what I have...
I found this info for you.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Mustang Rear Axle Reference.pdf (63.7 KB, 25 views)
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Old 06-03-2016, 03:45 PM   #243
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Now we've gone full circle....from building a stroker motor....suspension....rear end....transmission.....now we are back to the motor.....You my friend have a lot to think about and a direction to take....in the future.
Yes, true!
but it's the way to go to make the right choices!
I've already drove this car for 5000 miles since Halloween, which is not bad at all for a car this old... And my idea can move along the road.
Suspension, ride heights, wheels, power steering, AC, traction bars, disc brakes, big sway bars, cooling... I've already done a lot
And that's only what I tell, I've also rebuilt my carb, replaced the door latch axles, door hinge stuff, all windows rollers and one cisor and one handle, cleaning stuff here and there, pertronix pick-up, shocks, door locks, ignition switch, pedal covers, radio, monty bar, export braces, heater core bypass, horns, horn switch plate, spark plug wires, oil pan gasket, head cover gaskets and so much more...

my little Pony has nothing to see with the one I bought!

And I'm far from being done. But I'm at a difficult point where nothing is anymore an emergency but I don't know where to start.
Problem is that my gearbox was super worn out and I had it rebuilt in February! What a mistake...
But I don't want to make this car a modern car, it will always be an oldie that I drive like an oldie, with patience and care. And as it's supposed to be an American sports car, I want it to be able to do a nice burnout to show off, to make a nice classical sound.
I want it to handle better than it did in 66 but I'm not Ken Block. Just than I avoid playing with my security: I'm a good driver, I know how to handle a loss of control, how to handle unvolonteer or volonteer drift... as long as the car is safely responding to my comands.

So long story short, now that this toploader is rebuilt, I'm gonna keep it, it's always way better than the original 3 speed supposed to be there... And I'll consider that it's part of the charm of a 50 year old classic!

Now with all the info you gave me to read, I guess I'll stay with my 8" but I'll try to put new good quality parts where there's failure risk and I'll lower my HP expectations on the engine.

Instead of spending money on a 9", I'd better put it in Global west control arms, QA1 shocks, a good flywheel and a good clutch.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:16 AM   #244
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Very nice, keep us posted. I do miss working on my 67, have fun with it!
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Old 06-05-2016, 01:30 AM   #245
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Another thing that would help with suspension is a bump steer kit, unless it was mentioned already. I probably can't explain it well enough but there's many YouTube videos on it. It really helped my car after lowering it
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