Life versus Death with Horses? - Mustang Evolution

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Old 04-10-2010, 04:30 AM   #1
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Life versus Death with Horses?

Ok I will start from the beginning. My husband and I (about 3 months ago) moved in with some friends of ours and in return for living with them we have to help out on the 40 acre farm. Well between her and her daughter, they have 6 horses. Her daughter has 4 geldings and this lady (I'll call her Gail) has a pregnant paint mare and a homozygous Paint Stallion.
We had always been told that Tonto (the stud) is a handful, but at one time he was ridden. They haven't been able to ride him for the past 3 years because he's so uncontrollable and so full of testosterone that no one can handle him. Also, if you take Cricket (the mare) away from him he's goes crazy. We have him up for sale right now and he's worth a lot of money. About $25,000. He's a homozygous Bullseye Bay Tobiano Stallion. All of his foals will be the Tobiano Bullseye color. Well I am the only one (besides my husband and Gail's son-in-law) who's healthy enough to be out working with the horses in any condition. Well I bring the mare into her stall to feed her once a day and Tonto does just fine. Then I'll let her out and he starts getting his stallion voices going and trys to mount her. Right now she's anywhere from 1 day to 2 weeks away from foaling.
Well today Gail and her husband (Bob I'll call him) went out of town for a week. And that leaves me to take care of the horses with my husband along with the rest of the farm. So I decided to go and feed Cricket her normal amount of grain, and I usually stand in her stall with her b/c the horses have full access to the 9 stall barn. Well Tonto came in while I was in her stall brushing and talking to her and tried climbing over the stall (about 6 feet) to attack me and Cricket. Tonto has been known to turn on a dime like this. For example, 5 minutes before I went back in Cricket's stall Tonto was loving on me and I was brushing him. Well after I let Cricket out (There's Titan (Egyptian Arab), JJ (Appy), Pheonix (American Arab), and Beamer (Use to be Wild Mustang).) Well Tonto decided to attack Beamer. Beamer is already a horse that takes a long time to gain his trust (it has been taking me 3 months and he's still not quite sure). Now Tonto attacking Beamer was pinning him to the ground, biting the crap out of him and kicking the **** out of him. Once Beamer got back up, I was trying to get Tonto off of him with a whip, and he had ahold of Beamer by the shoulder (Left) and biting down as hard as he could at a full gallop. Beamer made noises that I've never heard a horse make, they were so ungodly awful. I thought Beamer was going to be killed by Tonto, that's what it sounded like.
Well I ran to Gail's daughter's house and started balling telling her what had just happened. We both went back across to the barn and on the way there Tonto had Beamer pinned in the barn doing it again. (Normally Tonto and Beamer are Cricket's protectors.) Well we got on the phone with Gail and Bob and told them Tonto was either going to be leaving or we'd have to put him down. This isn't the first time this has happened to one of the horses. He's attacked all of them (including Cricket) at one point or another.
Well Gail and Bob said they'd have to call us back and talk about what to do. When they called us back they said either someone could come up with the money to geld him and be reimbursed later or put him down. Now what I need help with is what should I do?????????????????

To me, this horse is beyond the point of no return. I love horses with all my life, my profession is actually going into a breeding barn and training. I can't even work with Tonto. He won't let anyone put a halter on him or anything. And I know that it'd hurt me tremundously to put a horse down for no reason, but I think this is it with him. I believe that if someone could come up with the money to geld him (we are all pretty strapped for cash) that it'd just be a waste. Tonto's 9 now and he's got it in his head that he's a stallion and always will be. I don't think there's any point in spending the money to geld him. Granted he's worth a lot of money and all, but I'm afraid to go back in that barn.
No body is allowed to go back into the barn or pasture now until he's taken care of. He's so out of control, it's crazy. Please help!!! I cannot jeopardize my mare and foal for this crazy stallion.

On top of all this, the mare last year didn't make any milk so the foal ended up dying b/c it didn't get the colostrum needed. I need to be in the barn with Cricket as soon as she foals incase she doesn't want anything to do with the foal again. And Tonto, I'm afraid, might kill me if I try to come near Cricket or the foal now. I just need ideas!! Please!!!!
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Old 04-10-2010, 05:14 AM   #2
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Life versus Death with Horses?

Well, you should not be out there along for sure. Like Bullvede said above a Hot Shot is a good thing to have, We had some terribly behaved stallions (who have been gelded) come through here to be trained, they to had gotten away with this type of behavior. A couple had even bitten people and had gotten away with it. So my husband and I always went out together to handle them never alone. He had a five foot long Hickory stick a lip chain and I had a shovel and access to a hot shot just in case.
You said that you have 9 stalls and 6 horses. Are the stalls strong and wall tall enough that you could lock him in one for now? You could keep a couple stalls next to him empty and close off the others from being able to access the barn and mess with him. You are definitely going to have to either build a pen like Rosi said or build up a stall for him. You could put hot wire around the top of the stall if he tries to climb it. Just make sure it is a hot one. You definetly need to seperate him from the others and particularly the mare, he could very well kill the foal over his mare.
Even when you geld him you will still have to keep him confined form the others for months.

But it sounds like you are already planning on gelding him, and he is not valuable at all as a stallion with this kind of behavior no matter how great his bloodlines. This is not the kind of disposition you want to pass down to his foals.
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Old 04-10-2010, 05:38 AM   #3
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Life versus Death with Horses?

Why is a stallion in a pasture with a mare in foal and other geldings?

Get him gelded and then if he is still crazy put him down.
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Old 04-10-2010, 06:10 AM   #4
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Life versus Death with Horses?

Castration (gelding) isn't going to change the stallion's attitude over night. So, you're going to still have the SAME problem. It's takes months/years to get the testrostone out of a male horse's system. He may no longer be able to breed, but the urge and attitude are still there.

I would build a pen that's at least 8' high and at least 50' in circumference then trick the stallion into the pen and leave him in there until the owners come home and let them deal with the problem.
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Old 04-10-2010, 06:43 AM   #5
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Life versus Death with Horses?

This Stallion should NOT be kept in such close proximity with a mare on a daily basis, especially not one so close to foaling. In addition, he will see the geldings as a treat to 'his' mare too. If he cannot be kept apart from the other horses he MUST be either gelded or rehomed (or put to sleep, but this seems a drastic measure for a perfectly healthy and very valuable horse).
When the mare foals she should be kept away from the other horses, especially the Stallion, I am a little concerned that between all of you, you do not seem to have the resources and experience required to breed horses and handle a Stallion, I don't mean to judge, but the mare has already lost one foal and judging by the circumstanses you describe now, the mare must be well stressed out, not good when she is about to give birth, if this was the same last time is it any wonder her milk never came in?
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Old 04-10-2010, 06:59 AM   #6
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Life versus Death with Horses?

Gelding them no matter how old they are will calm them down a bit and if needed run him alone so he is all by himself for a few months and then start working with him and make sure no mares are in his sight
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Old 04-10-2010, 07:24 AM   #7
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Life versus Death with Horses?

This horse seems like a bastard, and not the type of horse that I would ever want in my barn. Obviously horses get hyped up when mares come in, are there or even leave. It sounds like the pens aren't that efficient. We have a stud pasture where only ONE stud goes out. He is the kindest big ole guy (a clydesdale). But if there are mares around look out. I have never had to experience anything like this because we have a secure pasture where he is secluted as well as a pen with FULL boards so he can't get to the other horses if he wanted to.
1 He needs his OWN stall where he doesn't have acess to the other horses
2 You need to put iron rods or wood planks, so he can't get his nose through to even touch the other horses.
If he is worth so much money it would be a shame to put him down/.

I have never heard of anyone keep the stud with the other horses unless it is a field full of mares ready to get bred. The stud should never have contact with any other studs, geldings or foals!!!!

How old is Tonto?? I do not recommend gelding him at all. I have a 12 year old stud and we considered gelding him just to ride him, and the vet said that it could kill him. The older they get, the harder it is on them to get it done. Think of it like a dog...you don't neuter a 6 year old dog.

But if you are able to geld him at the age I suggest getting local mennonites to do it. We got the vet to come out and they did not give them enough drugs to pass out so my studs were doing nose dives ..up and down for about 30 mins. It was one of the most horrible things I have ever seen. So we took him to the mennonites for $20/horse and they did them standing. Alot less painful for them in a sense, and alot cheaper.
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Old 04-10-2010, 08:23 AM   #8
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Life versus Death with Horses?

Get him away from the other horses, and get him gelded. Gelding does wonders! Even for a previously used stud. Do not put the life of yourself or the other horses at risk.
I would not consider putting him down unless he is crazy after gelding. But I think you will see a great difference.

I too have a gorgeous buckskin that was a stud. After his first 2 breedings, he completely changed from a sweetheart and trusting, to having to be gelded. He is a wonderful gelding now. He almost killed me rearing up on me, knocking me down. So don't put yourselves in that position.

**ADDED: I would call around and ask the vets and tell them the circumstances..do the owners have a vet? Can they contact him and make the arrangements. I know my vet would if I was out of town and had a situation.
I thnk you would be able to trust him again once he is gelded. BUT you would still have to keep him away from other horse for at least a month, as gelding is NOT an instant cure, his body needs to adjust. I can't go with the putting down, unless you try that first.
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Old 04-10-2010, 08:41 AM   #9
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Life versus Death with Horses?

1. You keep saying that you can't afford to geld him. Gelding is not all that expensive and you need to compare the cost of gelding with the cost of an emergency room visit. I would imagine that the cost of gelding is comparable to euthanizing. Do one of these. If the owners can't afford to geld this beast, how on earth can they afford to go out of town for a week?

2. No horse that is too wild to handle is worth 25k.

3. And separate him from the other horses. You say you cannot jeopardize your mare and foal for this crazy stallion, yet you still have your mare in the same pasture with him.

4. If you can't afford to geld this stallion, what are you going to do if the foal is a colt and needs to be gelded? For that matter, how are you going to afford feed?

5. This horse needs a professional trailer to put some manners back on him. He didn't get this way overnight. He got this way because someone let him.
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Old 04-10-2010, 09:31 AM   #10
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Life versus Death with Horses?

first thing that needs to be done is the stud needs to be separated from the rest of the horses.whips wont even phase a stud unless it is a bull whip so you need to cary a cane with you or get someone with a cane also to go with you out there or get a hot shot to control him and protect yourself.older studs can be a dangerous problem so gelding him should be a priority even if you need to work out a deal with the vet but make sure you have written approval before having it done,separate him even if you have to beg and borrow some stock panels.
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Old 04-10-2010, 09:34 AM   #11
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Life versus Death with Horses?

I've never known a stud to be turned out with other horses. My mother grew up on an Appy farm and the studs were always kept separate for reasons of fighting each other and having unwanted pregnancies.

I'd geld him or make him a completely separate pasture and stall a good ways away. And if hes near her put vix right under his nostrils alot of people use it at shows so studs cant smell mares. good luck!
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Old 04-10-2010, 10:00 AM   #12
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Life versus Death with Horses?

An animal should not be left uncastrated and uncontrollable like that. As far as I am concerned an animal like that ain't worth squat and no one would pay that kind of money or any money for that matter to have something dangerous like that put in their barn let alone a breeding program.

You do need to call the vet and explain your situation, they may be able to work something out for you.

Geld him. This may help with some of the behaviors, but a lot of this is learned too. He has been aloud to act like this as well. Being a stallion is not excuse for dangerous and uncontrollable actions.
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