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Old 07-30-2014, 09:40 PM   #386
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True the R8 has no heritage at all , the mustang has plenty more comparable would be a Porsche lots of history , but I think mustang fans / owners are the most passionate of the bunch no question . I like Porsche but let's be realistic nothing beats the sound of a V8 especially an American V8.
If you are just referring to the fact that the R8 hasn't been around long then sure. However, the R8 does have a significant amount of Lambo DNA, from the chassis to engine to interior, the majority of it came from Lamborghini.


However, if you are referring to Audi, well.. they have been competing and winning in motorsport for much longer and at way, way higher levels than Ford has.

In fact, Audi has been so dominant that the rules are generally changed to give everyone else a shot. Look at the WRC group B cars from the 80's. Or the Le Mans series where Audi has generally dominated everyone, for years.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:00 PM   #387
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Yeah an R8 is a cheap version of a lambo same motor etc... but the brand R8 has not been around for very long at all , and I wasn't talking about Audi but the R8 vs the Mustang and with Porsche I should have specified the 911 which has been around forever .

No doubt Audi is a top player in racing no question but were not talking about that rather the longevity of particular brand of cars .
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:32 PM   #388
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Wiki ain't a valid source foo'

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Old 07-30-2014, 10:34 PM   #389
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Wiki ain't a valid source foo'

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Old 07-30-2014, 11:30 PM   #390
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Hilarious.
The R8 has a hell of a long way to go before it has the heritage of any of the American models that we've been talking about. I'll bet they're not anywhere near as passionate about their cars on the R8 forums as we are here.

That WIKI definition of Pony cars sounds about right. By todays standards, the "compact" part doesn't really apply anymore. Hate to say it but nobody that I'm aware of, who has posted on this thread, has what I would define as a muscle car. We all have Pony cars. Some of us have Hot Rod Pony cars but they are still just pony cars.
It used to be that the muscle cars were the smaller model cars with the big block engines shoehorned into them, and not much else... No heater, no radio, no air, nothing. In the 60's pony cars, it was just the big block engine equipped cars, with a few select small blocks, that were considered the true muscle cars.
Nowadays, everyone that sees a "Dukes of Hazzard" Charger thinks that it is a muscle car. Only a select few could be considered a true muscle car and you don't see them around very often anymore.
Times change and so our definition must also make adjustments. I don't see how anyone can disagree that the Hellcat, the former GT500, and the Z28 are all modern day equivalents of the factory muscle car.
Not Bill Gates nor Steve Jobs have the "heritage" of the Waltons nor the Rockefellers but they came and ended up biitch slapping the rich families. More money than the pedigree families.

Its when you rest on the laurels of the past that you end up getting left behind by the future.

Even in the first year out, the R8 came and biitch slapped any and all Mustangs and Corvettes as well as Vipers.

Also, unless you are absolutely intimate with what and how to mod an R8 I don't think its fair to assume that R8 doesn't have the level of mods that mustangs have. They may have less options but then again someone who can afford $150-200k car can afford whatever you throw their way.

They have less but the equivalent part (ie exhaust) would cost 3-6 times more than a mustang.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:36 AM   #391
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Hell, if I pay that much money for a car I expect that it will need no mods except for a set of tires, and perform flawlessly right off of the showroom floor.

Ish is right, I meant the R8 model.
Audi has been around for a good long time... They were formerly known as Auto Union.
I don't know if you guys remember but about 7 years ago they discovered one of the Hitler era Auto Union race cars stashed away somewhere. It was supposed to go up for auction and bring a record amount of money for the sale but then something happened.
Anyone ever hear anything about that?

We'll see how the R models stand the test of time...
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Old 07-31-2014, 01:49 AM   #392
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Not Bill Gates nor Steve Jobs have the "heritage" of the Waltons nor the Rockefellers but they came and ended up biitch slapping the rich families. More money than the pedigree families.

Its when you rest on the laurels of the past that you end up getting left behind by the future.

Even in the first year out, the R8 came and biitch slapped any and all Mustangs and Corvettes as well as Vipers.

Also, unless you are absolutely intimate with what and how to mod an R8 I don't think its fair to assume that R8 doesn't have the level of mods that mustangs have. They may have less options but then again someone who can afford $150-200k car can afford whatever you throw their way.

They have less but the equivalent part (ie exhaust) would cost 3-6 times more than a mustang.


Rather we will see how the new SVT / COBRA / GT 500 performs against the R8 with up to 750 Hp and IRS we will see who gets " ***** slapped " lol....

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Old 07-31-2014, 08:26 AM   #393
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Maybe Wiki has the answer

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Old 07-31-2014, 08:45 AM   #394
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Wiki ain't a valid source foo'

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That's for sure Wiki is biased and corrupt .
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Old 07-31-2014, 09:57 AM   #395
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Wiki is about as reliable a source as anything you read on here, or anywhere else on the internet, for that matter. It's just open to public updates, so it's biased towards the views of whoever updated it last... just like anything else you read. I'm not saying that Wikipedia is a good place to get reliable information, but I'm pretty sure that we can trust its definition of a pony car for the sake of this discussion. Unless someone has an official auto industry approved Webster's dictionary official definition we can use.

As for paying a lot of money for a car you don't have to modify... what is the fun in that? Then you just paid a butt load of cash to be exactly like every other R8 owner. I, personally, would not buy a car that I couldn't modify. I am a firm believer in built not bought.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:03 AM   #396
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Wiki is about as reliable a source as anything you read on here, or anywhere else on the internet, for that matter. It's just open to public updates, so it's biased towards the views of whoever updated it last... just like anything else you read. I'm not saying that Wikipedia is a good place to get reliable information, but I'm pretty sure that we can trust its definition of a pony car for the sake of this discussion. Unless someone has an official auto industry approved Webster's dictionary official definition we can use.

As for paying a lot of money for a car you don't have to modify... what is the fun in that? Then you just paid a butt load of cash to be exactly like every other R8 owner. I, personally, would not buy a car that I couldn't modify. I am a firm believer in built not bought.

I thought I remember from years ago that pony cars were usually defined as long hood with short deck. Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Cudas, Challengers, etc. We have come to call these same cars "muscle cars" over the years.


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Old 07-31-2014, 10:28 AM   #397
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One of a group of 2-door hardtops of different makes that are similar in sporty styling, high performance characteristics, and price range.

That is the Webster's dictionary definition.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:49 AM   #398
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Hell, if I pay that much money for a car I expect that it will need no mods except for a set of tires, and perform flawlessly right off of the showroom floor.

Ish is right, I meant the R8 model.
Audi has been around for a good long time... They were formerly known as Auto Union.
I don't know if you guys remember but about 7 years ago they discovered one of the Hitler era Auto Union race cars stashed away somewhere. It was supposed to go up for auction and bring a record amount of money for the sale but then something happened.
Anyone ever hear anything about that?

We'll see how the R models stand the test of time...
Lol true. Hell if I paid that much it should be the best but then again it is made for the masses so there's always some plush to be modded out. Some fat to be trimmed.

Its so difficult to say what models will stand the test of time. As of now, I think the only late model that will ever be considered classic status are: NSX, Ford GT, Viper... that's probably it. I might have missed some but I think the first two are for sure.

Of course Lambo Reventon and other limited production super million dollar cars are instant collectibles.
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Old 07-31-2014, 11:09 AM   #399
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Did you really put a honda in the same group of classics as the Viper? Or is there a different NSX that I'm obviously not aware of?
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Old 07-31-2014, 11:50 AM   #400
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Did you really put a honda in the same group of classics as the Viper? Or is there a different NSX that I'm obviously not aware of?
The NSX was a game changer. By many regards, it forced the European super car makers to up their game in terms of use ability and reliability as well as performance.

It did with less cost, less weight, and less power what other cars couldn't. And it was the first midship mounted Japanese car I believe. We're talking early models not the later ones that got heavier with luxury features.

And it still looks better than the majority of the new cars being built.

So yes I feel its not too far a stretch to claim that the NSX can hold its own in the pantheon of classics.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:33 PM   #401
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The NSX for what it was and the time it was, was a good performing car. Nowadays, they are just an average performing sports car with no real redeeming features at all.

You can usually find an 80k - 100k mileage car in great shape for less than $30k, at least about a year ago you could.

I don't think I would ever consider the NSX more than a footnote in history.
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Old 07-31-2014, 01:11 PM   #402
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The Toyota MR2 was a mid-engine rwd car and came out six years before the NSX. The Mister-Two is considered the poor-man's Ferrari. But still, just a footnote in car history, not ranking amoung the classics like the Mustang GT...
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Old 07-31-2014, 01:41 PM   #403
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The NSX for what it was and the time it was, was a good performing car. Nowadays, they are just an average performing sports car with no real redeeming features at all.

You can usually find an 80k - 100k mileage car in great shape for less than $30k, at least about a year ago you could.

I don't think I would ever consider the NSX more than a footnote in history.
That could also be said about the Mustang if not for Carroll Shelby. Remember it was the secretary's car until he came along. Mustang was likewise a game changer and even the Shelby's now a piss poor performer compared to even a Ford Focus.

So I still would consider the NSX still in the same breadth. Although it doesn't have the continued nonstop production as the Mustang, this is not a prerequisite for classic car status.

Likewise you could find a restored daily 64/65 for about $20-25k maybe $30k
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Old 07-31-2014, 02:06 PM   #404
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To be honest, I still consider the Mustang to be a high school girl's car. Right up there with the dodge neon, mazda miata, and s2k. Sure, there are plenty of nice mustangs out there, but people who have srt4 neons think their cars are really nice, too. And in that respect, then the honda is absolutely in the same class as the mustang.

Don't take any of that to heart... I'm just stirring the pot.
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Old 07-31-2014, 03:02 PM   #405
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A high school girls car ha maybe the v6 version . The mustang is a muscle car just like the Camaro and the challenger think 69 Camaro Z28 or 70 Hemi Challenger or 68 Fastback GT / or the Bullitt Mustang in the movie those cars are not a high school girls car by any stretch of the imagination , they are legends . The heritage is there for all three.

Then there are the 68 Shelby's GT 500's yes they are very nice muscle cars and cost a lot of money heck a 1967 Fastback GT costs a lot of money nowadays .
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Old 07-31-2014, 03:08 PM   #406
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Old 07-31-2014, 03:37 PM   #407
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Just last night in class I saw a 1968 all original Shelby for $142,000!
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Old 07-31-2014, 03:42 PM   #408
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Just last night in class I saw a 1968 all original Shelby for $142,000!
what was it GT 350? as the 500's I think cost more . The original
1967 GT 500 white Super Snake went for 1.3 million bucks ha....


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Old 07-31-2014, 03:44 PM   #409
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Just last night in class I saw a 1968 all original Shelby for $142,000!
Yeah it's stupid crazy what an oem spec Mustang let alone Shelby is priced at lol
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Old 07-31-2014, 04:29 PM   #410
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The one I saw was a GT500. Link:
Used 1967 Ford Mustang Shelby Gt for sale on Craigslist

I guess it was a 67, not a 68... either way, an expensive *** car for a 14 year old girl.
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Old 07-31-2014, 04:40 PM   #411
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2015 Dodge Challenger HellCat at the Track and Strip

The guy that wrote this is building the motor for my drag truck. Knows his ****. Chrysler invited him out to drive/review the Hellcat on behalf of Allpar. The article contains a few stats that weren't released to the public yet.
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Old 07-31-2014, 04:47 PM   #412
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Did you really put a honda in the same group of classics as the Viper? Or is there a different NSX that I'm obviously not aware of?
Bro Acura NSX. Omg bro. It was bad a $$ in thr day

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Old 07-31-2014, 04:53 PM   #413
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A high school girls car ha maybe the v6 version . The mustang is a muscle car just like the Camaro and the challenger think 69 Camaro Z28 or 70 Hemi Challenger or 68 Fastback GT / or the Bullitt Mustang in the movie those cars are not a high school girls car by any stretch of the imagination , they are legends . The heritage is there for all three.

Then there are the 68 Shelby's GT 500's yes they are very nice muscle cars and cost a lot of money heck a 1967 Fastback GT costs a lot of money nowadays .
Yeah bro. Those darn high school girls V6 model. Ha ha ha

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Old 07-31-2014, 04:59 PM   #414
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Yes David... and secretaries, school teachers, nurses, etc. That's the whole theme of these pony cars, affordable.
All of us performance nuts on this website wouldn't be able to support the production of the 700hp cars, so, the automakers need to sell a great many of the lower priced cars of the model so that we can have our "super cars".
That means that even high school girls are able to have these cars.
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Old 07-31-2014, 05:45 PM   #415
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I'm calling the EO office.

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Old 07-31-2014, 05:49 PM   #416
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2015 Dodge Challenger HellCat at the Track and Strip

The guy that wrote this is building the motor for my drag truck. Knows his ****. Chrysler invited him out to drive/review the Hellcat on behalf of Allpar. The article contains a few stats that weren't released to the public yet.
Thanks, Axiom. That is a good article, and we were beginning to stray off topic. Glad to hear more about how it handles. That is good news, or bad (for the competition).
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:39 PM   #417
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That article made me happy in pants. The pricetag of it makes me sad in pants. It is a complete and total monster, but this is one of those cases where I think one might just want to do a $25k Coyote and another $10-$15k in mods and beat it down the track by 1.5 seconds. This is a car for ppl with money who just want to buy a car with monster power right from the get go.
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:45 PM   #418
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That is a very well done article. It almost has me wanting one and I've never really been a Chrysler fan.
Automobiles are sure getting complicated. Probably several hundred pounds of the weight of that car is WIRING!
What a difference 35 years makes! The first gen Challengers look like antiques by comparison.
I wonder how their value will holdup in the used market after a few years?

^45 years.... This heat is getting to me!
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Old 07-31-2014, 09:15 PM   #419
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The main thing that will determine whether or not the Hellcat holds its value is if it can be reliable. It is a very complicated machine, so we will see if that $60k+ price tag is paying for hype or if it's paying for die-hard quality. You can find a running 1970's Challenger on craigslist for a couple grand that still has the original motor in it. Is this something we can expect from any of these new ponies?

I think a lot of the advances in technology that have advanced performance to these levels brings on a lot of possible problems. How easy will this car be to service and work on? Can the average mechanically inclined car fanatic install parts in his/her garage? Or is a dealership only type of complicated like a lot of European cars of this power?

I would imagine that the average Joe could do a fair amount of work to the Hellcat. After all, it is just a blown pushrod motor, and those have been around for fifty years. Only time will tell.
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Old 07-31-2014, 09:49 PM   #420
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The main thing that will determine whether or not the Hellcat holds its value is if it can be reliable. It is a very complicated machine, so we will see if that $60k+ price tag is paying for hype or if it's paying for die-hard quality. You can find a running 1970's Challenger on craigslist for a couple grand that still has the original motor in it. Is this something we can expect from any of these new ponies?

I think a lot of the advances in technology that have advanced performance to these levels brings on a lot of possible problems. How easy will this car be to service and work on? Can the average mechanically inclined car fanatic install parts in his/her garage? Or is a dealership only type of complicated like a lot of European cars of this power?

I would imagine that the average Joe could do a fair amount of work to the Hellcat. After all, it is just a blown pushrod motor, and those have been around for fifty years. Only time will tell.

2,000 for a stock challenger what ad is this I have seen some mustangs this price and there projects and I am looking at a challenger with no rear axle or seats for 4,500


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