How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make? - Mustang Evolution

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Old 05-01-2006, 10:17 PM   #1
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How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

I've heard up to 30-40 HP at crank... Plus I have a set off my old engine and I may sell them. The pulleys were installed by previous owner. I'm not sure what brand. What damage if any can be done by slowing down the AC, alternator, and water pump?
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Old 05-01-2006, 10:40 PM   #2
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

You've heard lies. I wouldn't expect to pick up more than 8-10 rwhp. In fact, I'd be incredibly pleased if I did.

Slowing down the alternator and water pump can both be detrimental. Slowing the alternator may result in your battery not being sufficiently charged, especially at idle with lots of accessories running. Slowing the water pump may cause your car to overheat due to insufficient coolant flow.

I ran a U/D water pump pulley for a while and ended up swapping it out for a stock pulley. Of course, this was on a decently modified 5.0L, but there's always a slight risk even on a stock motor.

To me personally, the crank pulley is the only one worth changing. Sure, you'll pick up a couple horsepower from swapping the other two as well. It's just a matter of how bad you want that couple horsepower. You may swap all of them and drive the car 200k miles with absolutely no problems though. I'm just giving you a slight word of warning.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:42 AM   #3
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

March Custom Underdrive Pulleys 99 00 Mustang GT at v8power.com

Mine are March. They claim 12.5 rwhp. Also realize my alt pulley is stock. Nice machined aluminum finish. Tempted to install em on new engine. That figure has to be combined with other specific mods.

Thanks for honest feedback.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:57 AM   #4
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

you'll get 6-8 realistically... not really enough to 'feel'... but if you add on a couple other 6-8 hp mods, you will feel the difference between the end product and the start product.
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:36 AM   #5
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

absolutely nothing. id uninstall them and sell em if it wasnt such a pain in the ***. use the money on something else.
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Old 05-02-2006, 09:00 AM   #6
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

barly enough to feel if even that, 7rwhp/7rwtq would be a good boost for 25% underdrive, dont go anymore than that. You may pick up a mile per gallon as well~ basically bolt ons are worthless lol, something to tinker with but dont expect much of anything from them. Out of all the bolt ons though UD pulleys probably add the most~
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Old 05-02-2006, 09:19 AM   #7
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

Here is the fact on a V6 they are worth about 3-6hp but that is only at upper RPM where the waterpump drag comes to play. On a V8 the numbers are 5-9hp. This does not matter what manufacturer makes them. REMEMBER ADVERISMENTS ARE LICENSES TO LIE. DO NOT EVER BELIEVE ADVERTISED CLAIMS. Always expect most claims to 30-50% exaggeration minimum.
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:50 AM   #8
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

I wish mine didnt have underdrive pullies... at idle my cars alternator struggles, and the cobras came underdriven compared to the GTs from the factory anyway.

You wont see much gain power wise, the thing I like about them is the motor rev's a bit quicker with them on. :dunno:
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:32 PM   #9
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

they must test air intakes after they use the stock air filter "a brick" for a baseline
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:15 PM   #10
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

Some underdrives are ok... MOST of the gains are actually from swapping the stock steel pulling for lighter billet aluminum. Some companies make really small underdrives (10-20 percent) that do not reduce the capability of the alternator/water pump to perform their necessary activities... The lighter pullies reduce parasitic loss (kind of like an aluminum flywheel).
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:36 PM   #11
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

I believe Saleen does that... at least they look like they'd weigh a lot less
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:47 PM   #12
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

The weight of the pulley if balanced mean absolutely nothing. It is the energy used to turn an accessory that determines parasitic drag. The Alternator has almost no drag and you can check this by how easy it free spools. That is why when you get a UDP kit it will come with a Alt pulley to speed it up.The real drag comes from the water pump and the A/C compressor. Both move fluid and you are having increases in drag with increases in power. By using a underdrive pulley you are slowing the waterpump and A/C reducing the parasitic drag. That is why drag cars use electric water pumps and have no A/C. The waterpump in most car moves way more water than necessary considering the amount of restriction a thermostat actually has on cooling system. So slowing the waterpump means zero to the cooling ability. Same for the A/C. With a UDP you wont experience much in the way off reduced cooling of the A/C if any.
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:28 PM   #13
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

Actually it still takes more energy to spin something heavier faster than something lighter.... It still causes parasitic loss. I was just saying it would be better to get a "larger" underdrive pulley(not too much smaller than stock) and most use out of that pulley by insuring that it is aluminum....
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Old 05-03-2006, 07:43 PM   #14
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullitt482
Actually it still takes more energy to spin something heavier faster than something lighter.... It still causes parasitic loss. I was just saying it would be better to get a "larger" underdrive pulley(not too much smaller than stock) and most use out of that pulley by insuring that it is aluminum....
The crank weights like 60 lbs what is another 2 pounds if balanced. It is still 2 pounds less than the stock pulley. A standard UPD's weight doesn't mean diddley. The stock one weights more than a aluminum or a steel UDP. The waterpump and A/C are the culprits of parasitic drag END OF STATEMENT!!! The real reason for not getting to small of a UDP is to prevent the Alt from not charging properly. That is all
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:15 PM   #15
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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Originally Posted by Danger Dude
The real reason for not getting to small of a UDP is to prevent the Alt from not charging properly. That is all
Yup, that and inadequate coolant flow from the water pump on highly modified cars that are still running a stock pump.

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Old 05-03-2006, 08:55 PM   #16
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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Yup, that and inadequate coolant flow from the water pump on highly modified cars that are still running a stock pump.

You know I have never seen inadequate coolant flow from a good water pump. Most WP's deliver 200 times the necessary volume that is why such a small opening in the theromstat. The fact is if you take the Thermostat out the car will overheat because the water is moving so fast it does not have time to absorb the engine heat and transfer it to the radiator
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Old 05-04-2006, 02:02 PM   #17
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

i always thought water was overrated
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:44 PM   #18
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

The original engine did rev a little quicker with UD, but I'm leaving the factory pulleys on my new engine. The only mods remaining are MAC Chrome 3.5" CAI, BBK 70mm TB, FlowM exhaust, Steeda Springs, C/C + bushing kit. Its fast enough, and corners well. A little rough on imperfections cause 18" Zenetti wheels and old Nitto 555s. ;{
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Old 05-05-2006, 09:29 AM   #19
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

throttle bodies do petty much nothing
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Old 06-16-2006, 08:08 PM   #20
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

i agree with the other guys about 6-8 h.p. buddy of mine had a 97 gt with ford motorsport udp's and his car ran hot. have heard the ones from saleen have the least trouble. have also heard not to get piggyback pulley for the crank. hope this helps.
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Old 06-16-2006, 08:36 PM   #21
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

Quote:
Originally Posted by white 98 gt
i agree with the other guys about 6-8 h.p. buddy of mine had a 97 gt with ford motorsport udp's and his car ran hot. have heard the ones from saleen have the least trouble. have also heard not to get piggyback pulley for the crank. hope this helps.
I dont believe for one moment a UDP will cause a car with a good operational coolant system to overheat. There are other issues. Whether a poor condition radiator or a tired old waterpump. there are other issues
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Old 06-16-2006, 10:09 PM   #22
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

danger, all iknow is before udps no cooling problem, after udps cooling problem on friends mustang. no water pump problems, no electric fan problems, no radiator problems, no temp sensor problems. no difference but udps. i 'm not saying if you have udps you'll have cooling problems, just this guy did, that's all. i wasn't lyin', just stating what happened.
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Old 06-16-2006, 10:54 PM   #23
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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Originally Posted by Danger Dude
You know I have never seen inadequate coolant flow from a good water pump. Most WP's deliver 200 times the necessary volume that is why such a small opening in the theromstat. The fact is if you take the Thermostat out the car will overheat because the water is moving so fast it does not have time to absorb the engine heat and transfer it to the radiator
not true a car will overheat without thrmostat. bought a car once & heater didn't work, plus the engine never seemed to warm up,ie temp gauge, took thermostat housing off, discovered no thermostat. put one in, guess what? heater worked, & engine ran up to proper operating temp.
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Old 06-16-2006, 11:13 PM   #24
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

They are not worth crap
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Old 06-16-2006, 11:38 PM   #25
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

I stick by my theory of changing the crank pulley and leaving it at that. I personally had cooling issues that were partially solved by reverting to a stock water pump pulley. At the time, I was overheating (IMO, around 220, which is out of my comfort zone) not only in the city, but also just going down the highway (which is a sure indicator of insufficient water flow or radiator capabilities). I changed back to a stock water pump pulley and added back the little radiator "spoiler" (if you have a fox, you know what I'm talking about), and the cooling issues on the highway were solved. I already had a huge 3-core copper radiator (which actually disipates heat better than aluminum... aluminum is just lighter), so the radiator obviously wasn't the issue. Also, the water pump was a nearly brand new (about a year old) stock replacement.

Maybe the "spoiler" had more to do with than anything? :dunno:

But to me, the crank pulley is still worth changing and you won't have to worry about any of the issues associated with swapping the alternator or water pump pulleys (i.e. charging and cooling).
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Old 06-17-2006, 09:28 AM   #26
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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not true a car will overheat without thrmostat. bought a car once & heater didn't work, plus the engine never seemed to warm up,ie temp gauge, took thermostat housing off, discovered no thermostat. put one in, guess what? heater worked, & engine ran up to proper operating temp.

Dude I have been a professionally mechanic for 25 years and I have seen hundreds of people take out there thermostat in the south and their car overheats especially High performance cars. No not all cars will but I am not taking that chance. In a emergency maybe but to drive around without a thermostat is not good. Here is why. Your water temp probe is above the thermostat or near it and because of they it is not at the area of greatest heat, the cylinders, which can get red hot all the while your temp probe is showing cool because the water is rushing by so fast it does not absorb the heat so even though your gage shows cool your engine is over heating.

So you see the gauges in the car are not always as it appears!!!!


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Old 06-17-2006, 09:37 AM   #27
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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added back the little radiator "spoiler" (if you have a fox, you know what I'm talking about

Fan Shroud or the radiator deflector!!!!!
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Old 06-17-2006, 09:54 AM   #28
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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Originally Posted by Danger Dude
Dude I have been a professionally mechanic for 25 years and I have seen hundreds of people take out there thermostat in the south and their car overheats especially High performance cars. No not all cars will but I am not taking that chance. In a emergency maybe but to drive around without a thermostat is not good. Here is why. Your water temp probe is above the thermostat or near it and because of they it is not at the area of greatest heat, the cylinders, which can get red hot all the while your temp probe is showing cool because the water is rushing by so fast it does not absorb the heat so even though your gage shows cool your engine is over heating.

So you see the gauges in the car are not always as it appears!!!!


Next
danger dude, that's great you have been a mechanic for 25 years. i'm disputing that. no, i don't promote going without a thermostat either. i was just saying i bought a car without one& it didn't overheat, it ran cold. now, that said,cars ARE different. just because one car doesn't overheat, doesn't mean the next car won't.right? right. cars are strange critters. trying to find a mechanic around here who knows what he is talking about is hard. i work with a master tech who hasn't been right once whenever i have a car problem. go figure.. enjoyed talking with you.
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Old 06-17-2006, 09:54 AM   #29
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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danger dude, that's great you have been a mechanic for 25 years. i'm disputing that. no, i don't promote going without a thermostat either. i was just saying i bought a car without one& it didn't overheat, it ran cold. now, that said,cars ARE different. just because one car doesn't overheat, doesn't mean the next car won't.right? right. cars are strange critters. trying to find a mechanic around here who knows what he is talking about is hard. i work with a master tech who hasn't been right once whenever i have a car problem. go figure.. enjoyed talking with you.
i meant NOT disputing that.
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Old 06-17-2006, 10:12 AM   #30
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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danger dude, that's great you have been a mechanic for 25 years. i'm disputing that. no, i don't promote going without a thermostat either. i was just saying i bought a car without one& it didn't overheat, it ran cold. now, that said,cars ARE different. just because one car doesn't overheat, doesn't mean the next car won't.right? right. cars are strange critters. trying to find a mechanic around here who knows what he is talking about is hard. i work with a master tech who hasn't been right once whenever i have a car problem. go figure.. enjoyed talking with you.
That is great you have mechanic where you live that does not get it right most of the time but I am not just a mechanic by trade I was a professional engine builder on cars, boats, bikes and jet engines and I am now a Aeropace quality engineer. Most mechanics did not finish high school or tech school. I am neither of those. Am I perfect no but when it comes to engines I am right more often than not.

like I said just because your temp shows cool does not mean your car is not running hot. Lets get real for a second. Your temp gause can show cool all the while you could have no oil in the car. This just happen to a friend of mine with a AC Cobra. He went to a Goodyear store to have a oil change. He left and was 5 miles down the road when his car started to act up and backfire and lose power. The thermostat showed no temp problem. He stopped the car and heat was rising from the engine. He pulled the dip stick out which burnt his hand and there was no oil showing. When Goodyear towed it back to the store there was only 3 guarts of oil in the pan. The thermostat showed very little temp rise from the normal setting and there was enough oil to show oil pressure

So the temp gauge in a car is water temp only and the engine bearing and crank were toast. Goodyear spent 11,000 on a new Cobra motor.

When I was growing up car gauges were called idiot lights or idiot gauges. Actually one of the best places for a water temp sensor would be at the lower block or better yet a oil temp gauge so you would have oil and water temp
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:00 AM   #31
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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That is great you have mechanic where you live that does not get it right most of the time but I am not just a mechanic by trade I was a professional engine builder on cars, boats, bikes and jet engines and I am now a Aeropace quality engineer. Most mechanics did not finish high school or tech school. I am neither of those. Am I perfect no but when it comes to engines I am right more often than not.

like I said just because your temp shows cool does not mean your car is not running hot. Lets get real for a second. Your temp gause can show cool all the while you could have no oil in the car. This just happen to a friend of mine with a AC Cobra. He went to a Goodyear store to have a oil change. He left and was 5 miles down the road when his car started to act up and backfire and lose power. The thermostat showed no temp problem. He stopped the car and heat was rising from the engine. He pulled the dip stick out which burnt his hand and there was no oil showing. When Goodyear towed it back to the store there was only 3 guarts of oil in the pan. The thermostat showed very little temp rise from the normal setting and there was enough oil to show oil pressure

So the temp gauge in a car is water temp only and the engine bearing and crank were toast. Goodyear spent 11,000 on a new Cobra motor.

When I was growing up car gauges were called idiot lights or idiot gauges. Actually one of the best places for a water temp sensor would be at the lower block or better yet a oil temp gauge so you would have oil and water temp
dude, i would've been UPSET if that happened to me. after taking to a oil change place i'd have been looking at the oil gauge AND checking the oil level myself. surely the ac cobra has a oil gauge. if you are right most of the time that's great. tell me your secret. i love getting more car info. from people, ie how it all works together. i've learned quite a bit also. seems to me just figuring out CORRECTLY what is wrong with a car is most of the battle. by the way, i'm not like most people on forums, i'm not a 17 or 18 year old kid with daddy's money. i've got some miles on my odometer also. later...
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Old 06-17-2006, 05:15 PM   #32
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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dude, i would've been UPSET if that happened to me. after taking to a oil change place i'd have been looking at the oil gauge AND checking the oil level myself. surely the ac cobra has a oil gauge. if you are right most of the time that's great. tell me your secret. i love getting more car info. from people, ie how it all works together. i've learned quite a bit also. seems to me just figuring out CORRECTLY what is wrong with a car is most of the battle. by the way, i'm not like most people on forums, i'm not a 17 or 18 year old kid with daddy's money. i've got some miles on my odometer also. later...
He was very upset and he told them he was going to have the engine professionally done and Goodyear said take it wherever he wanted and pay for it, so he took it to Stone Performance under my suggestion. They build racing engines for professional racers. No my friend Chris has more money than sense or he would have checked his oil level first and he didn't. He just got it back. It is running great again

This forum is pretty unique because we have quite a few memebers with very good backgrounds and can provide useful information. ME is a more grown up site in terms of being laid back than many sites. We do have fun and joke around but this forum is much better at giving factual based information than some of the other sites. The people here really do want to help.
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:40 PM   #33
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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temp probe is showing cool because the water is rushing by so fast it does not absorb the heat so even though your gage shows cool your engine is over heating.

I think that the car would not make it to operating temp since more water is going through the system so it should still cool even though the water would have less time in the radiator. But, more water of the water's surface area would be in contact with the block since the water is moving faster. This would actually cause the car to NOT reach operating temp.

Think of it this way, what you are saying is that you could take a piece of ice and place it in hot water and stir it causing the ice to not melt as fast as ice that was just sitting in hot water, which is not so. What happens in this case is that the ice cools the water around it making it dissolve slower. By stirring it the ice comes in contact with more hot water making it melt faster. Same theory with the thermo probe. The more water that goes by, the faster and more accurate the gauge would be..
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:33 PM   #34
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

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Originally Posted by bullitt482 View Post
I think that the car would not make it to operating temp since more water is going through the system so it should still cool even though the water would have less time in the radiator. But, more water of the water's surface area would be in contact with the block since the water is moving faster. This would actually cause the car to NOT reach operating temp.

Think of it this way, what you are saying is that you could take a piece of ice and place it in hot water and stir it causing the ice to not melt as fast as ice that was just sitting in hot water, which is not so. What happens in this case is that the ice cools the water around it making it dissolve slower. By stirring it the ice comes in contact with more hot water making it melt faster. Same theory with the thermo probe. The more water that goes by, the faster and more accurate the gauge would be..
What I was talking about is well studied and documented by SAE publications. You stated what is happening, The water will pass thru the engine faster than the heat can be asorbed. The Radiator would also be a problem only if the water was super hot and moving to fast but that is not the problem. There has to be a happy medium between the speed at which the water travels and the absorption of water. That is why no matter what temp thermostate temp rating you get the water passage is much smaller than the actual passage where the thermostate is insatalled.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:48 PM   #35
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Re: How much difference do UD pulleys REALLY make?

we need a liquid that can absorb heat extremly fast (very very very very fast) and then we can shoot it though the motor faster.
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