Tuner vs Exhaust? - Mustang Evolution

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Old 02-28-2012, 03:38 PM   #1
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Tuner vs Exhaust?

I have an 01 GT with a CAI and I'm thinking either tuner or exhaust next. What would you do?
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:10 PM   #2
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I would go with a full exhaust first. Give it some room to breathe. Then eventually get a tuner. Just my opinion.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:20 PM   #3
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Usually a tuner is one of the last things.
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:43 PM   #4
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Tuner first in my opinion. It's what ties all your mods together. Exhaust is great and all but you won't notice much of a power increase.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:08 AM   #5
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I say tuner first!.. It's what ties in all your performance mods together!.. Most especially if you have an auto!..

---------- Post added at 01:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98StangKid
I would go with a full exhaust first. Give it some room to breathe. Then eventually get a tuner. Just my opinion.
The problem with doing a full exhaust with out a proper tune is that you can run into a lean condition!..
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:18 AM   #6
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Having a tuner with 79-04 cars with mods is not nearly as big a deal as with 05 and up cars. There are thousands of un-tuned 79-04 cars roaming around with full exhaust and CAI etc etc. That said a tuner will only help, certainly not harm.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:27 PM   #7
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

I have a 2004 GT, automatic. My SCT tuner works WONDERS! Shifting is more aggressive (my car jumped forward shifting at 85mph), it shifts at higher RPMs, and it just sounds like a completely different car. VERY noticeable change. My next purchase is gonna be MagnaFlow exhaust. I strongly suggest tuner before exhaust.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:14 PM   #8
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Thanks guys! I'm kind of leaning toward the tuner but I'm still not sure.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:17 PM   #9
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Exhaust makes driving a lot of fun!!!
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:21 PM   #10
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That's why it's so hard to chose! I have about $500 to spend. Any suggestions on exhaust?
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:25 PM   #11
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

I would really go with the tuner. You will see the most gains with it, then exhaust next.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCOB72
That's why it's so hard to chose! I have about $500 to spend. Any suggestions on exhaust?
For about $500 you can do both a tuner and O/R mid pipe!.. My tuner was $350 and my O/R X-pipe was $110!..
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:13 AM   #13
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

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Originally Posted by Eturner View Post
I say tuner first!.. It's what ties in all your performance mods together!.. Most especially if you have an auto!..

---------- Post added at 01:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 AM ----------



The problem with doing a full exhaust with out a proper tune is that you can run into a lean condition!..

Hey Etuner?? I hope I don't come off as a D*** but, can you please explain to me how you would ever run into a lean condition by doing exhaust? Because physics just isn't supporting that claim bro. That's like saying your exhaust causes your engine to suck in more air.. it doesn't. It just allows the exhaust to exit more smoothly and flow better. The piston is responsible for the amount of air it sucks in depending on how open the valve is and depending on how open the throttle body is which is dictated by the TPS. Even if a lean condition was to start happening, the O2 sensors and MAF would pick it up and tell the computer to adjust air/fuel mixture and it would adjust the fuel trim and timing... Unless I'm wrong.. in which case I'll just burn the degree I have and demand my money back LOL. Like I said, I don't wanna sound like an a**hole, but this sort of thing can get dangerous on these forums when people start believing things like this.
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:49 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by K Twisted

Hey Etuner?? I hope I don't come off as a D*** but, can you please explain to me how you would ever run into a lean condition by doing exhaust? Because physics just isn't supporting that claim bro. That's like saying your exhaust causes your engine to suck in more air.. it doesn't. It just allows the exhaust to exit more smoothly and flow better. The piston is responsible for the amount of air it sucks in depending on how open the valve is and depending on how open the throttle body is which is dictated by the TPS. Even if a lean condition was to start happening, the O2 sensors and MAF would pick it up and tell the computer to adjust air/fuel mixture and it would adjust the fuel trim and timing... Unless I'm wrong.. in which case I'll just burn the degree I have and demand my money back LOL. Like I said, I don't wanna sound like an a**hole, but this sort of thing can get dangerous on these forums when people start believing things like this.
First and formost I said can!.. It depends on what all was done to the exhaust!.. You put on long tube headers, an O/R Mid pipe, and a cat back exhaust on, guaranteed you will lean out!.. What you figure on a piece of paper and what really happens is not always the same!..

Secondly your stock tune can only adjust so much!.. If you want to mod your ride and trust the stock tune to make all the proper adjustments the go ahead!.. Lol
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:11 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eturner

First and formost I said can!.. It depends on what all was done to the exhaust!.. You put on long tube headers, an O/R Mid pipe, and a cat back exhaust on, guaranteed you will lean out!.. What you figure on a piece of paper and what really happens is not always the same!..

Secondly your stock tune can only adjust so much!.. If you want to mod your ride and trust the stock tune to make all the proper adjustments the go ahead!.. Lol
+1 The stock mass air meter can only adjust itself within the parameters of the stock tune. Engines with long tube headers and full exhaust usually run lean due to improved airflow/exhaust thru the engine. So the lean condition is caused basically by not enough air coming in to the amount exiting that's why a tune would b in order to adjust these parameters.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:32 AM   #16
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

Guys.. calm down LOL. There's no need to get defensive about this, I'm not attacking you or anything. First off, here's how my car is set up. Stock manifolds, cat on each side, straight pipe to mufflers. No tune. 50 shot of NOS. K&N FIPK CAI. I run rich with no problems or codes on the ECM. Engine runs fine. Let's think how an engine is designed. Car manufacturers put exhaust on cars to limit noise and move the exhaust gases to the back of the car, and control emissions. That's it. With all the tubing and bends in it on the intake and exhaust, all the heat that builds up, EGR, restrictions in flow and all that, emissions are greatly reduced... but power is also greatly sacrificed. The stock ECM will handle more than anything it will encounter in stock form while driving. The parameters are programmed in to it. In order to go outside the stock parameters, you have to do a lot more to it than just exhaust, and in fact without a tune, most mods that you do really won't hellp a whole lot because the ECM does it's best to keep things in check. To maximize these mods, a tune is in order. As enthusiasts, we've learned to tune our ECM's to dial in more power by adjusting fuel trim, advancing timing, changing shift points, changing RPM redline, etc. This increases power, but it also increases emissions and affects fuel mileage. On a purely stock set up, a properly sized exhaust for what the engine wants will not cause a lean condition, because you're simply helping exhaust flow more efficiently. The parameters of the ECM are not going to be breached by giving the engine what it wants and eliminating the manufacturer's restrictive manifold. The only problem that could come up is eliminating the cats which will cause the O2 sensors to go crazy, but there are fixes for that. I'm definately not knocking a tune, and in fact that's the first thing I would do too.. before exhaust. I'm just simply stating that you won't run into a lean condition. The only way to end up lean, is having too much air and/or not enough fuel, and/or advancing the timing too much, and/or adding too much NOS, and/or having too much boost. And Etuner... as much as I hate to admit it as an engineer, you're right that sometimes what happens on paper is not always what happens in real life.. but you can't dispute physics. The people who try are the same people who say that engines NEED backpressure, and that NOS is flammable. Always remember, Engines are designed by Scientific Analysis and Physical Fact. We didn't get to where we are today by ignoring this. And again my fellow mustang friends.. I'm seriously not trying to be offensive. I'm just trying to help set some common records straight that I keep coming across and help teach people some truly helpful information. I hope this helps. I'll catch you guys later and take care!!
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:18 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by K Twisted
Guys.. calm down LOL. There's no need to get defensive about this, I'm not attacking you or anything. First off, here's how my car is set up. Stock manifolds, cat on each side, straight pipe to mufflers. No tune. 50 shot of NOS. K&N FIPK CAI. I run rich with no problems or codes on the ECM. Engine runs fine. Let's think how an engine is designed. Car manufacturers put exhaust on cars to limit noise and move the exhaust gases to the back of the car, and control emissions. That's it. With all the tubing and bends in it on the intake and exhaust, all the heat that builds up, EGR, restrictions in flow and all that, emissions are greatly reduced... but power is also greatly sacrificed. The stock ECM will handle more than anything it will encounter in stock form while driving. The parameters are programmed in to it. In order to go outside the stock parameters, you have to do a lot more to it than just exhaust, and in fact without a tune, most mods that you do really won't hellp a whole lot because the ECM does it's best to keep things in check. To maximize these mods, a tune is in order. As enthusiasts, we've learned to tune our ECM's to dial in more power by adjusting fuel trim, advancing timing, changing shift points, changing RPM redline, etc. This increases power, but it also increases emissions and affects fuel mileage. On a purely stock set up, a properly sized exhaust for what the engine wants will not cause a lean condition, because you're simply helping exhaust flow more efficiently. The parameters of the ECM are not going to be breached by giving the engine what it wants and eliminating the manufacturer's restrictive manifold. The only problem that could come up is eliminating the cats which will cause the O2 sensors to go crazy, but there are fixes for that. I'm definately not knocking a tune, and in fact that's the first thing I would do too.. before exhaust. I'm just simply stating that you won't run into a lean condition. The only way to end up lean, is having too much air and/or not enough fuel, and/or advancing the timing too much, and/or adding too much NOS, and/or having too much boost. And Etuner... as much as I hate to admit it as an engineer, you're right that sometimes what happens on paper is not always what happens in real life.. but you can't dispute physics. The people who try are the same people who say that engines NEED backpressure, and that NOS is flammable. Always remember, Engines are designed by Scientific Analysis and Physical Fact. We didn't get to where we are today by ignoring this. And again my fellow mustang friends.. I'm seriously not trying to be offensive. I'm just trying to help set some common records straight that I keep coming across and help teach people some truly helpful information. I hope this helps. I'll catch you guys later and take care!!
Your the only getting defensive!.. And of course your car isn't throwing codes!.. Lol. You have a stock exhaust!.. Lol. Put some LTs on there with a O/R Mid pipe and odds are going to throw a lean condition!.. Most places selling Long Tubes for our cars suggest getting a tune for this very reason!.. That's one reason why I suggest that to others!.. The other reason being that I know several others with Full Exhaust on their cars, and started to run lean because of not having a proper tune!..
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:20 AM   #18
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

Remember how I said I was running rich??? If I had long tubes, I would be running normal. an O/R mid pipe (whether X or H) doesn't matter because they only help with scavenging. The reason most places suggest getting a tuner with your long tube headers, or any headers for that matter is to MAXIMIZE the benefits of running the header. Think of it this way. I take a stock 2000 GT. I throw a set of LT headers on there with no tune.. I'll prolly gain 5 to 15 HP. With a tune I'll max it and gain 20 to 25. With a mid pipe and a cat reduction, 25 to 30. Straight pipe after that and no mufflers (remember this is with a tune) you can get nearly 40. But without the tune, 5 to 15 HP will NOT cause a lean condition. 40 HP won't cause a lean condition. Your ECM can handle it. Your friends probably had more done than just a full exhaust. They were probably running intake manifolds, CAI's, TB's and what not (basically they prolly had too much air in and not enough fuel). The more mods you do, the more chances of the ECM getting confused happens. That's why tuners are such big things, because they can expand the ECM's parameters to allow for multiple mods without conflict and to MAXIMIZE the gains from each mod. But I promise you.. physics will not allow for a lean condition off of exhaust alone. But hey... if you wanna run around giving people uneducated advice.. feel free. When those people break things, I'll be there telling them what they should have done with the math, education, and experience to prove it.. not friends who put their stuff together in garages going off of what some dude on a forum said to do because he read it from some other guy who didn't know anything and just believed the labels in a Jeg's or Summit magazine.

That's being defensive.

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 AM ----------

You know what JCOB72.. if you wanna listen to these guys fine. If not.. message me and I'll fill you in on a few things from an engineer's view. I'm just tired of constantly answering the same questions over and over on here and then having back yard know it alls try to tell me the engineering and science doesn't mean anything because their friends car blew up. Sounds to me like their friends didn't know what they were doing.. Good look JCOB.. To answer your question though, a tuner is prolly the cheaper and better mod to get and do at this point. It opens the door to the rest of the mods so you can just slap sh** on without listening to guys like me.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:40 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by K Twisted
Remember how I said I was running rich??? If I had long tubes, I would be running normal. an O/R mid pipe (whether X or H) doesn't matter because they only help with scavenging. The reason most places suggest getting a tuner with your long tube headers, or any headers for that matter is to MAXIMIZE the benefits of running the header. Think of it this way. I take a stock 2000 GT. I throw a set of LT headers on there with no tune.. I'll prolly gain 5 to 15 HP. With a tune I'll max it and gain 20 to 25. With a mid pipe and a cat reduction, 25 to 30. Straight pipe after that and no mufflers (remember this is with a tune) you can get nearly 40. But without the tune, 5 to 15 HP will NOT cause a lean condition. 40 HP won't cause a lean condition. Your ECM can handle it. Your friends probably had more done than just a full exhaust. They were probably running intake manifolds, CAI's, TB's and what not (basically they prolly had too much air in and not enough fuel). The more mods you do, the more chances of the ECM getting confused happens. That's why tuners are such big things, because they can expand the ECM's parameters to allow for multiple mods without conflict and to MAXIMIZE the gains from each mod. But I promise you.. physics will not allow for a lean condition off of exhaust alone. But hey... if you wanna run around giving people uneducated advice.. feel free. When those people break things, I'll be there telling them what they should have done with the math, education, and experience to prove it.. not friends who put their stuff together in garages going off of what some dude on a forum said to do because he read it from some other guy who didn't know anything and just believed the labels in a Jeg's or Summit magazine.

That's being defensive.

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 AM ----------

You know what JCOB72.. if you wanna listen to these guys fine. If not.. message me and I'll fill you in on a few things from an engineer's view. I'm just tired of constantly answering the same questions over and over on here and then having back yard know it alls try to tell me the engineering and science doesn't mean anything because their friends car blew up. Sounds to me like their friends didn't know what they were doing.. Good look JCOB.. To answer your question though, a tuner is prolly the cheaper and better mod to get and do at this point. It opens the door to the rest of the mods so you can just slap sh** on without listening to guys like me.
Dude three of my buddies had CAI, TB, and Full Exhaust!.. And they all ran lean without the tune!!...

"Remember how I said I was running rich??? If I had long tubes, I would be running normal."

Your own argument just proves what I've been saying!!...
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:38 AM   #20
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

Please chill out a bit guys. This discussion is nothing to get worked up about.

Read this PDF, maybe it will answer some questions.
Exhaust Scavenging
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:55 AM   #21
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Please chill out a bit guys. This discussion is nothing to get worked up about.

Read this PDF, maybe it will answer some questions.
Exhaust Scavenging
Thanks Trojan for clearing that up the PDF was a good read and by the way ur horse wouldn't happen to b white would it ? Lol!
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:58 AM   #22
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

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Thanks Trojan for clearing that up the PDF was a good read and by the way ur horse wouldn't happen to b white would it ? Lol!
You're welcome and no it isn't, but I might like that better than the red it is.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:41 AM   #23
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Dude three of my buddies had CAI, TB, and Full Exhaust!.. And they all ran lean without the tune!!...

"Remember how I said I was running rich??? If I had long tubes, I would be running normal."

Your own argument just proves what I've been saying!!...
I'll chill.. I'll leave it at this about my own situation. I'll break it down like this.. I already said that I have a mostly stock exhaust except for a cat reduction and high flow mufflers. I'm running rich. I tried adding a K&N FIPK CAI to get a tad more air in to help with running rich and see if I couldn't get a bit more power. It helped, but just a little. I'm still running rich. The reason is because my exhaust is too restrictive. If I had a full exhaust, I would be running normal (without a tune). This is because the exhaust would actually be able to exit the combustion chamber completely, instead of what's happening now, where some of it leaves, and some of it is left behind so that when intake air comes in, I can't get a proper mixture because of the exhaust that's still left over in the combustion chamber. Then fuel is added, but it's too rich so it doesn't burn correctly and doesn't have the right amount of force behind it. Then it runs into a restrictive exhaust. To combat this, my ECM backs off on the fuel and tries to add air, but it can only do so much because of the little amount of exhaust left over in the combustion chamber when it's trying to get air in on the intake stroke. I even upgraded my plugs and added MSD coil over plugs to see if getting a better spark would help with the burn at all. It did, but even with that I was still running a bit rich. With a full exhaust that's properly sized for my engine's needs, I would be able to get all of the exhaust out, which would create a vacuum (scavenging) to help draw air into the combustion chamber during valve overlap and while the piston is moving down on the intake stroke. The increased air through the CAI would give just a little extra to play with. This would mix with the fuel and I would get a proper burn which would be able to leave easily. However, I wouldn't run lean because even though I had a full exhaust and an intake, the computer would adjust the fuel for the small amount of extra air I'm getting from my CAI. It's not enough to overrun the ECM. However, if I had a tune (which I plan on getting after my exhaust due to the nature of my problem of running rich from a cat reduction), this would allow the ECM to say, "Hey!! I can get more air in because I can now add more fuel, and whatdya know? I can get it all out just fine through this awesome exhaust!!" Yes, a tune definately benefits. I noticed you said your 3 friends had TB's. Personally, I won't even consider a TB unless I had a port and pollish, and a cam job along with a full exhaust. There's no need for it. You'll notice a very minimal gain just having a CAI and TB, and in fact sometimes it can be counterproductive. It sounds like your friends don't have enough fuel for the amount of air that is coming into the engine, which would end up giving a lean condition.. but it's not due to having a full exhaust. This brings us to what's called the Venturi Effect. It's like holding your thumb over the end of a hose. You increase velocity. But when you let go, the water slows down and instead of spraying out, just falls out. In the case of an engine, you want the right amount of flow and velocity. If you open up your intake too much, you lose velocity and allow the air to warm up, expand, and slow down. This is where we get into Molecular Flight Time. The longer air molecules have to just wander around, the less dense they become and therefore the less you can pack into the combustion chamber. Less air means less power. If you have a CAI, and a stock TB, and a full, properly tuned exhaust, the air is allowed to flow to it's maximum in and out based on the capabilities of the head and how much the cam opens the valves and for the duration they're open. Hence, a tune is well worth the money to MAXIMIZE your mods. I hope this really helps clear everything up. I'm tired now, and am going to bed. I'll be on this again later if anyone has any further questions.

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

Just now read the PDF... thank you for that Trojan. It backed up everything I've been trying to explain. I hope that this may also shed some light as to why Etuner's friends had a lean condition even though they had an even more free flowing exhaust over normal. Catch you all later.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:50 AM   #24
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Like I said before!.. Lol. Your own statement proves what I already was saying!.. You've already said a couple of times how your car is running rich and how that is due to the fact that you still have your factory exhaust manifold and cats!.. And that if you were to add LTs and all, your car would then be running a normal air fuel mixture!.. Lol. Because it will lean it out!..

So that being the case, then if your air fuel mixture where already at a normal range, why wouldn't adding LTs and O/R mid pipe also lean out your mixture?..

Your computer in your car can only adjust so much!.. And it's perimeters are very narrow!..
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:58 AM   #25
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Like I said before!.. Lol. Your own statement proves what I already was saying!.. You've already said a couple of times how your car is running rich and how that is due to the fact that you still have your factory exhaust manifold and cats!.. And that if you were to add LTs and all, your car would then be running a normal air fuel mixture!.. Lol. Because it will lean it out!..

So that being the case, then if your air fuel mixture where already at a normal range, why wouldn't adding LTs and O/R mid pipe also lean out your mixture?..

Your computer in your car can only adjust so much!.. And it's perimeters are very narrow!..
Lol true story.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:23 PM   #26
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

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Like I said before!.. Lol. Your own statement proves what I already was saying!.. You've already said a couple of times how your car is running rich and how that is due to the fact that you still have your factory exhaust manifold and cats!.. And that if you were to add LTs and all, your car would then be running a normal air fuel mixture!.. Lol. Because it will lean it out!..

So that being the case, then if your air fuel mixture where already at a normal range, why wouldn't adding LTs and O/R mid pipe also lean out your mixture?..

Your computer in your car can only adjust so much!.. And it's perimeters are very narrow!..

Alright.. I see that you are saying that by adding these mods (in my case) it will lean it out.. But it will only lean out the exhaust mixture coming out the tail pipe because the intake mixture is better and burns more efficiently, and the exhaust is allowed to fully exit the combustion chamber instead of right now where it can't fully escape. These mods will not lean out the intake charge though. There isn't enough scavenging happening to 'suck' in that much extra air into the combustion chamber behind it, even if you have a CAI and TB. Remember that the intake only happens because of the downward stroke of the piston. That's where the main suction comes. You can only flow as much air as your intake port and intake valve size will allow. Beyond that, it doesn't matter if you have the biggest TB in the world with the coolest CAI.. you just can't squeeze that much air through your intake port. You'll reach what is called terminal velocity and what they call in the engineering world as Diminishing Return Phenomenon. Your ECM is programmed to know what the max volume of air that your stock heads can flow under the best circumstances. Typically, most cars don't come anywhere near the "best" circumstances which is why aftermarket parts are so popular. They allow us to get closer to the "best" circumstances. After you add enough parts, then yes, you do eventually out do the ECM, but it won't happen off of just an exhaust, intake or even TB. I'm trying to explain it in a way that makes sense and doesn't get all technical and full of engineering terms like the Scavenging article did. It just backed up what I'm trying to say. The ECM is fully capable of adjusting the fuel trim to compensate for the max amount of air that is coming in through the intake port that the head will allow. Most of the time, engines don't suck in the max amount even under WOT. And because manufacturers want to extend fuel mileage, reduce emissions, and relocate exhaust to the rear of the car, this reduces power and creates backpressure which kills the amount of power an engine can make.. because some exhaust is still stuck in the combustion chamber. A full exhaust will just allow the engine to get it out completely.. allwoing the engine to have a proper mixture of air and fuel for a better burn, but NOT the max amount of air to out-do the fuel mixture causing a lean condition. This is why tuning is awesome. It allows you to more closely control the parameters to max what the engine is capable of doing, but the engine is only as capable as the head is at bringing in air through the intake ports. Beyond that it really doesn't matter what you do until you do a port and pollish job, cam job, replace heads, change stroke or bore, or add a power adder like a turbo or supercharger. This is one reason why NOS is so popular. It allows us to get more air in without adding parts and changing shapes of parts and all that. It's chemical HP versus mechanical HP. I really really hope that this helps.. but I'll keep trying to explain it as long as its confusing. Please remember that I don't want any hard feelings either. I'm not on here to fight or make enemies. I was a little snappy earlier which is normal for me when I get frusterated, but I wasn't really frustrated at you.. it was more at the fact that I wasn't explaining very well. Take care and have a good day.. I really have to get to bed LOL. I work night shift and have to get up in a few hours.
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:19 PM   #27
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Thanks for all the info! Haha!
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:28 PM   #28
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

holy sh*t guys ur posts are sooo long. back to original question. get tuner then exhaust or both at same time lol. and when it comes to exhaust only lt! also do it all at once. especially headers with mid pipe they dont always match if you dont get a set
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:50 PM   #29
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ZzzZzzzzZzzzzz
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:00 AM   #30
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhobbs View Post
holy sh*t guys ur posts are sooo long. back to original question. get tuner then exhaust or both at same time lol. and when it comes to exhaust only lt! also do it all at once. especially headers with mid pipe they dont always match if you dont get a set
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ZzzZzzzzZzzzzz
LMAO!!! right??

---------- Post added at 02:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 AM ----------

Alright.. so after some further consideration and thinking on my part and staying awake when I should have been sleeping.. Here's the only time you will run into a lean condition on an exhaust upgrade, but it's not physically due to exhaust. If you upgrade your full exhaust and eliminate your cats, but keep your O2 sensors and don't tell your ECM that you eliminated the cats, it will think you are running rich and will attempt to lean out the air/fuel mixture. So indirectly yes, you can run into a lean condition from doing an exhaust upgrade, but still, the lean condition is a lack of fuel caused by the confusion of the ECM. This makes a tune VITAL if you eliminate the cats. One way around this is to get O2 extenders. There... now everyone is happy. I hope this solves it and people will refer to all of the above information if they ever run into this problem Happy Racing all!!
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:05 AM   #31
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exhaust is your first step then cold air intake & tuner at same time then gears then throttle body
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:36 AM   #32
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

To be honest... there really is no specific 'formula' for what parts should be done first and what you should hold off on. Here's a copy of a list I made for another guy on here in the general order I would do things as an engineer, but your basic mild mods don't really have a specific order. Just remember that tuning from the start will help get the MAX out of each and every mod you do, and will tie them all together to work in harmony so you get the most bang for your buck with each upgrade.

-Proper sized exhaust- long tube headers, X or H pipe depending on sound preferance, no cats, high flow mufflers.
-CAI
-Tune
-Upgraded ignition (I like MSD's coil over plugs and NGK's Iridium IX spark plugs)
-Underdrive pullies (not to add power, but to free up power)
-Electric fan (if you don't already have one, again for same reason)
-Lightweight flywheel and driveshaft (same reasons)
-Synthetic Oil (less resistance which ties into freeing HP up)
-Cooler thermostat
-Reverse flow water pump (better to cool the heads first where the heat is generated than to allow the coolant to flow through the engine warming up the whole time before finally flowing through the heads)
These are all basic starting mods to add a bit of HP and free up a decent amount. You don't necessarily have to do them in the above order, but I've found it to work fairly well with most set ups. If you want even more power after these, some more in depth mods that cost a bit more are required...
-Upgrade your heads.
-Get a good port and pollish job to allow even more air in
-Get a valve job done. 3 angle valve jobs are common, but a 5 angle is also really good.
-Upgrade fuel pump (more air requires more fuel unless you wanna run lean and blow up your engine.)
-Upgrade cams
-Upgrade Throttle Body
After all that, if you really wanna pull out the big guns.. you can tear into your engine..
-Bore or stroke depending on tolerances and HP vs Torque wants/needs/requirements
-New crankshaft (preferably planed and lightweight)
-New rods
-New pistons (go with a Dykes top ring and a gapless bottom ring for some nice benefits there)
-Upgrade injectors
-High flow intake manifold
At this point, you could even consider going with a turbo or supercharger set up or go above a 125 shot of NOS.
These mods will require you to redo some of the earlier mods if you've already done them. These upgrades will require blueprinting your engine to make sure it all works together. These mods are not cheap, but they will get you to your required goal. The one key factor in determining these mods is just how much HP and torque you want, the RPM range you want them, the character of the engine you want to have, the type of fuel or octane you want to run, fuel consumption, and various other factors. The BIGGEST factor is budget. I hope all this helps, and you want further information I would be glad to help in whatever way I can. I know some things might need a further explanation and that's fine, and if you wanted, I could even help blueprint your engine and make some good recomendations, but I would need more info from you as well. Lemme know, and again, hope this helps. Good luck!!
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:36 PM   #33
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

Man, all that fuss-from two great enthuasist I like to read posts from. Both are on their game, I've read their posts plenty. Increasing exhaust flow depends on amount of air at the intake at the TB.

Here is my bottom line: You can buy exhaust systems, no problem. If you get an O2 sensor (downstream) fault it wont go away with out turning the sensor off. As you go along increasing air induction, the problem will persist, or without warning cause moderate damage to your engine. No sweat, simple, upgrading air and exhaust flow means that somewhere down the road you may have to tune. My engine and specs are not like the 1999 and later models. I have a 2 valve, 4.6 ltr.


I upgraded from a 6 CAT stock system for my 97 GT to a BBK 2 CAT and it immediately faulted out my downstream O2 sensor passenger side. Although, I am not running stock TB either. I could not defeat the sensor fault with a new sensor, so I tuned it out

Essentially, Increased air flow to the engine meant increased exhaust exit and that the O2 sensor could not provide sufficient accurate data to the PCM to allow it to calibrate. This is where the tuner came in. I turned off the downstream sensors which allowed the PCM to act more normal. At the same time such a maneuver requires some adjustments to the PCM via the tuner.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:48 AM   #34
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

Thanks LAS97.. I really appreciate that. You have some good/valid points there!!
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:39 AM   #35
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Re: Tuner vs Exhaust?

I disagree with most up above. I say get the Exhaust first, then get the Tuner after.
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