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Old 03-03-2012, 05:51 PM   #1
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Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

Hey everyone! I own a 96 which everyone knows is non pi. I am either going to port and get new cams or buy romeo pi heads and intake. im not spending over 1500. which gives better preformance? Im going for most power gain. and does anywhere sell everything you need for npi to pi swap? and i mean everything I dont wanna be buying from 10 places. anyone with comments pitch in. especially people who have done it then dynoed. o ya i have larger throttle body and penlum msd ig tune coming intake, full exhaust coming including long tube headers. so with those said what should i do bout heads?
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:04 PM   #2
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Lmr.com. pi heads for sure. Think I saw the pi heads on there for less than 300 a side. You may have to find your intake from somewhere else but I may have missed it
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:12 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by DaBluedude
Lmr.com. pi heads for sure. Think I saw the pi heads on there for less than 300 a side. You may have to find your intake from somewhere else but I may have missed it
Definitely the PI heads and I think LMR does sell the intake also for like $200
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:49 PM   #4
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

holy crap those are cheap! then i should get the studs and gasket from them??? then intake and conversion for intake then ill be done????

---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:34 PM ----------

ok someone please tell me i dont need new studs those are pricey! I am going to buy head changing kit. and if i ever wanted to could i port these with out replacing cams and gain power?? and can i add cams with my pi heads in future with the rest of my motor??
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:47 PM   #5
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

The non-PI heads actually flow better than the PI heads, ported or not. Go check out the article at www.sullivanperformance.com/yvs450/tech/tech.htm.

Cams will make a difference in performance as well as valves. Get a good valve job with oversize valves that will allow you more lift. The stock valves have a weird lip all around the edges that can cause interference with the piston as the lift goes up or the timing goes slightly off. Most "replacement" valves (i.e., non Ford Motor) don't have this lip and give you more piston to valve clearance, which will allow you to use a more aggressive cam.

Sean Hyland (Home | Sean Hyland Motorsports) has done extensive research with these engines and should know. But talk about expensive parts. There are several companies that can rebuild a stock non-PI head with oversize valves that work great, and then you can choose your cam.

As far as the intake manifold, the replacement Ford Motor Sports manifold works great. Go checkout some of the other forums to see how it is done;like Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, Marauder, and Towncar.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:56 PM   #6
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

ive read every article.. 7 hrs now lol. soo i was thinking modular head shop stage one non pi.. but what intake.. and if i want to supercharge how? ive never seen a prior 99 charger
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:24 PM   #7
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

Most pre-99 chargers are centrifugal like Paxton or Vortech.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhobbs
ive read every article.. 7 hrs now lol. soo i was thinking modular head shop stage one non pi.. but what intake.. and if i want to supercharge how? ive never seen a prior 99 charger
There is a really good thread on here that talks about the benifits of PI heads on a non PI motor it's called best known hp for 4.6L 2v it was posted a few days ago if u want to check it out
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:47 PM   #9
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From what I understand, and my friend has one also, putting PI heads on a non PI engine raises the compression by 1 static point, and more compression equals more power, my friends car was by far the fastest lightly modified 4.6 I'd ever seen, good luck with your build.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:16 AM   #10
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

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Originally Posted by jdmeaux View Post
The non-PI heads actually flow better than the PI heads, ported or not. Go check out the article at www.sullivanperformance.com/yvs450/tech/tech.htm.

Cams will make a difference in performance as well as valves. Get a good valve job with oversize valves that will allow you more lift. The stock valves have a weird lip all around the edges that can cause interference with the piston as the lift goes up or the timing goes slightly off. Most "replacement" valves (i.e., non Ford Motor) don't have this lip and give you more piston to valve clearance, which will allow you to use a more aggressive cam.

Sean Hyland (Home | Sean Hyland Motorsports) has done extensive research with these engines and should know. But talk about expensive parts. There are several companies that can rebuild a stock non-PI head with oversize valves that work great, and then you can choose your cam.

As far as the intake manifold, the replacement Ford Motor Sports manifold works great. Go checkout some of the other forums to see how it is done;like Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, Marauder, and Towncar.

Just a quick question.. I've seen you say this twice now about NPI heads with a port job flowing better than PI heads. This is true if the PI heads are stock, but from my understanding, if you were to port the PI heads, then they would flow better than the ported NPI heads right? Or am I wrong, and if so can you show me something that proves it so I can put that in my toolbox for future info?? Please? Thanks man, I just don't wanna go behind you and say that PI heads flow and respond better with a port job and NPI heads do if I'm wrong. Personally, I'd just get some Trickflows, but that's me. Thanks!!
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:36 AM   #11
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

can someone give me some numbers on power gains for modular head shops stage one and stage 2 npis? they sound legit...but i wannna be sure

---------- Post added at 07:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 AM ----------

and also does more compression equal more low end power then ported npi? thats where I reallly lack. Ik i could switch gears but this is my dd
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:28 AM   #12
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by K Twisted View Post
Just a quick question.. I've seen you say this twice now about NPI heads with a port job flowing better than PI heads. This is true if the PI heads are stock, but from my understanding, if you were to port the PI heads, then they would flow better than the ported NPI heads right? Or am I wrong, and if so can you show me something that proves it so I can put that in my toolbox for future info?? Please? Thanks man, I just don't wanna go behind you and say that PI heads flow and respond better with a port job and NPI heads do if I'm wrong. Personally, I'd just get some Trickflows, but that's me. Thanks!!
In stock form or with BLENDING porting, the npi will outflow a PI head. Check Sullivan Performance tech article and several others on the web. Like I said, BLENDING porting, which just cleans up all the areas for a smoother air flow.

An easy example is with a water hose. Get two water hoses, one with a 1/2 inch dia and one with 3/4 inch dia. Use the same faucet and turn the water on. The 1/2 incher will shoot water just so far. Flag it, tag it, mark it where the farthermost reach of the water. Now do the same with the 3/4 incher. Not only will you see that the smaller hose has more pressure (flow), but will also have farther distance than the 3/4 incher.

Up to a point, the npi will outflow the pi heads. Normally this is on a basic stock vehicle run to 5000 RPM. Now if you do a full "reshaping" port job (which is what most people think of), the PI heads will outflow them. Once you start changing cams, adding some sort of blower, increase exhaust flow, then its a whole new ballpark.

Whenever I get the funds situated, I will get a set of Trickflow heads to kick up the C.R. and flow better.
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:55 AM   #13
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

well heres my setup engine wise. now have msd ig, bbk intake, lg throttle body and penlum. buying better maf, full exhaust and probably will not buy supercharger. now if I do do npi ive decided to go modular motors stage one or two, what intake should I use jus the pi?.. if i go pi is ford racing better or should I find some with upgraded cams? feel free to get technical
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:41 PM   #14
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

For npi, either use the replacement intake (avoid the Dorman..I've heard too many complaints) or your stock if its not cracked (water leaking into the valley underneath). And get a tune from SCT. I recommend American Muscle for their BAMA tune with lifetime support.

For PI, if you are still using the "original npi" pistons in your 2v block, use the FRPP intake. And a tune. Don't forget that the smaller combustion chamber of the heads with the npi pistons will kick up your compression ratio, usually requiring you to go to at least 89 octane gas.

The tune determines the parameters of the engine functions due to the different mods you do. The tune will take advantage of the MSD ignition, BBK CAI, larger throttle body and plenum, and full exhaust. Some tuners are set up for multiple tunes (like for 87 octane, 89 octane, or 91 octane, OR racing fuel). This will totally liven up that engine. Especially us guys with 1996 -97 engines. And most companies that sell the tuners, like AM, will help you by rewriting you tune as you make changes to your engine.

If you go to Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, Marauder, and Towncar, there are plenty of discussions about the 1996-97 engines, which apply to 'Stangs too. And Tbirds, and Town Cars, and Continentals.
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:16 PM   #15
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

so what your saying is i dont need a new intake if i get ported npi with cams? I was afraid of it not taking full advantage of heads. and ik pi have less air flow more compression.. I run 89 octane so thats good. couldnt i just buy ported and cammed pi's and have best of both worlds persay??

---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

I ask that because there is a guy selling mmr stage 2 for 1200obo. sooo is there any down side to getting cammed and ported pi's
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhobbs
so what your saying is i dont need a new intake if i get ported npi with cams? I was afraid of it not taking full advantage of heads. and ik pi have less air flow more compression.. I run 89 octane so thats good. couldnt i just buy ported and cammed pi's and have best of both worlds persay??

---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

I ask that because there is a guy selling mmr stage 2 for 1200obo. sooo is there any down side to getting cammed and ported pi's
You'll be better off with camed and ported PI's!..
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:51 PM   #17
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

imma make this car ba man one part at a time. gonna go with ported and camed pis! any other upgrades i should do?? other then what i put earlier?
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhobbs
imma make this car ba man one part at a time. gonna go with ported and camed pis! any other upgrades i should do?? other then what i put earlier?
Is it your DD or is it a weekend toy?...
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:58 PM   #19
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

umm both lol I plan on buying truck as secondary in 5 months.. i do wanna take my pony cross country some day

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------

would stage two on the pis be too much??
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:07 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by mhobbs
umm both lol I plan on buying truck as secondary in 5 months.. i do wanna take my pony cross country some day

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------

would stage two on the pis be too much??
Personally you can never have to much!... Stage two heads and cams is something I plan on doing someday!.. But after what upgrades you've already stated and the heads and cams!.. I would do Gears, chassis, suspension, and brakes!..

In other words, help get that power to the ground, and make sure your able to stop all that power too!..
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:16 PM   #21
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

ya i plan on attacking suspension next. I ran into some money so im putting 5k to my car. Ill be starting thread for suspension soon! be sure to visit and chime in. im clueless to suspension lol thanks everyone for the motor input!
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:33 PM   #22
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ya i plan on attacking suspension next. I ran into some money so im putting 5k to my car. Ill be starting thread for suspension soon! be sure to visit and chime in. im clueless to suspension lol thanks everyone for the motor input!
Sounds good!...
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:45 PM   #23
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

one last thing what companies produce best stage 2 ported pi heads. the companies like mmr and mpe?
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:48 PM   #24
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one last thing what companies produce best stage 2 ported pi heads. the companies like mmr and mpe?
Personally I've heard some good about MMR and I've heard good and bad about Patriot!.. Don't know about MPE!..
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Old 03-04-2012, 04:08 PM   #25
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

ya ive heard alot of bad about patriot. Im thinking mmr or modular head shop.. modular head shop are rare used though

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------

will i need to change injectors and fuel rail?
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Old 03-04-2012, 04:12 PM   #26
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ya ive heard alot of bad about patriot. Im thinking mmr or modular head shop.. modular head shop are rare used though

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------

will i need to change injectors and fuel rail?
From what I know you shouldn't have to!.. About the only time you'll need to upgrade your fuel system is if you also decide to go FI!..

---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:12 PM ----------

FI meaning Forced Induction!..
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Old 03-04-2012, 04:15 PM   #27
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

ya lol i dont have quite that many funds! thanks Etuner!
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:07 PM   #28
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ya lol i dont have quite that many funds! thanks Etuner!
No problem!.. Lol
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:33 PM   #29
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Save up and by Trickflow heads and cams. Way worth saving up another 1500 for.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:26 AM   #30
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

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Originally Posted by jdmeaux View Post
In stock form or with BLENDING porting, the npi will outflow a PI head. Check Sullivan Performance tech article and several others on the web. Like I said, BLENDING porting, which just cleans up all the areas for a smoother air flow.

An easy example is with a water hose. Get two water hoses, one with a 1/2 inch dia and one with 3/4 inch dia. Use the same faucet and turn the water on. The 1/2 incher will shoot water just so far. Flag it, tag it, mark it where the farthermost reach of the water. Now do the same with the 3/4 incher. Not only will you see that the smaller hose has more pressure (flow), but will also have farther distance than the 3/4 incher.

Up to a point, the npi will outflow the pi heads. Normally this is on a basic stock vehicle run to 5000 RPM. Now if you do a full "reshaping" port job (which is what most people think of), the PI heads will outflow them. Once you start changing cams, adding some sort of blower, increase exhaust flow, then its a whole new ballpark.

Whenever I get the funds situated, I will get a set of Trickflow heads to kick up the C.R. and flow better.

If I remember right, I was the one who gave you that article on another thread LOL. Be careful when you call pressure "flow".. Typically flow would indicate gallons per minute in your example the same as flow in an engine is measured in cubic feet per minute. If you were to relate flow in your scenario, then technically the 3/4 inch hose would "flow" more because it's a larger diameter, but with less pressure (velocity). Sorry.. just had to point that out. I would like getting some trick flows too.. but I'd rather have an 03/04 Cobra than having my GT...
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:49 AM   #31
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

NPI heads DO NOT FLOW BETTER!!!!!! That is why Ford switched!! Look at the article posted, it states that stock vs stock they flow better!! And also, ported vs ported they still do better!!! You cant compare ported NPI to non-ported PI. Thats like comparing a stock GT to a GT 500 and saying its fair because they are both Mustangs. It doesnt work that way. PI heads are better period.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:55 AM   #32
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

ya how are trick flow compared to stage two mmr. as of right now im getting mmr
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:59 PM   #33
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

I am a huge fan of the Trick Flow heads! Those heads and a decent cam with supporting mods will have you at 350 to wheels in no time
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:07 PM   #34
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Re: Npi or pi?? port or buy new heads

Ill look into it. they are so expensive though.
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