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Old 07-27-2012, 09:54 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAS97GT

AZ, you running live wire?
I've got the SCT SF3/X3 tuner. The data log program they had me download is LiveLink Gen-II
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Old 07-28-2012, 06:04 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure

I've got the SCT SF3/X3 tuner. The data log program they had me download is LiveLink Gen-II
Same here. Cept I have the LW. Can I data log and program my tuner?
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:24 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAS97GT

Same here. Cept I have the LW. Can I data log and program my tuner?
It looks like there could be more features in this program, but I'm not sure. Is the LW a flash-able chip or an actual tuner?
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:38 AM   #144
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Seems like I'm still getting some pinging at high RPMs under load They occur right after your switch to another gear and step on the gas. This 2 to 3 or 3 to 4. I do not hear it from 1 to 2.

So, I guess I need to make sure I don't have something going on making anymore changes to the tune with Bama. My COPs ohm'd out within spec. I have new Autolite coppers upon Bama request. I replaced the fuel filter ~1,000 miles ago. If I remember, I will pickup a new PCV valve this afternoon. I just turned over 39,000 miles.

Can anyone think of a list of things to check? Is there some method to set base timing, other than through the timing chains on the front sides?
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:41 AM   #145
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Re: Knock & Ping question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Seems like I'm still getting some pinging at high RPMs under load They occur right after your switch to another gear and step on the gas. This 2 to 3 or 3 to 4. I do not hear it from 1 to 2.

So, I guess I need to make sure I don't have something going on making anymore changes to the tune with Bama. My COPs ohm'd out within spec. I have new Autolite coppers upon Bama request. I replaced the fuel filter ~1,000 miles ago. If I remember, I will pickup a new PCV valve this afternoon. I just turned over 39,000 miles.

Can anyone think of a list of things to check? Is there some method to set base timing, other than through the timing chains on the front sides?
There is no other way to set base timing that I could find on the net.
I would think that your tuner would have some timing tables you could work with though. If not maybe you need a different tuner?
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:57 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

There is no other way to set base timing that I could find on the net.
I would think that your tuner would have some timing tables you could work with though. If not maybe you need a different tuner?
According to Bama, they do very little timing change on the Mach1's due to them being setup for 91 octane stock. There is a way to make adjustment to timing, I believe even in certain RPM ranges. I still have not been able to get the pinging to repeat on the stock tune. Bama has made adjustments three times and cannot get it squared away. This is what's making me thing there might be something else going on. Although, it seems to run fine (aside from the pingage), no CEL's, no hesitation. The only time I feel like it acts as though there could be a prob is when the A/C is on. It seems much more boggy than you would expect for a 305HP engine.
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:06 AM   #147
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Re: Knock & Ping question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
According to Bama, they do very little timing change on the Mach1's due to them being setup for 91 octane stock. There is a way to make adjustment to timing, I believe even in certain RPM ranges. I still have not been able to get the pinging to repeat on the stock tune. Bama has made adjustments three times and cannot get it squared away. This is what's making me thing there might be something else going on. Although, it seems to run fine (aside from the pingage), no CEL's, no hesitation. The only time I feel like it acts as though there could be a prob is when the A/C is on. It seems much more boggy than you would expect for a 305HP engine.
My oldest daughter has an 04 Mach I too and a few times she has gotten some bad fuel that caused it to ping, but it went away as soon as she got new fuel. I can't understand why yours is being so difficult to get rid of, so I suppose your thinking is probably correct.


What brand and model tuner are you using?
I would like to look it up and get the specs on it and see what it is capable of if you don't mind.


Aren't those supposed to be 315 HP? Nothing to quibble over, just curious.
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:11 AM   #148
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I thought they were the same as the 03 Mach's, but I'll happily take the extra HP!

The model tuner I have is a SCT SF3/X3.

TH
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:58 AM   #149
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Re: Knock & Ping question

don't recall if i or anyone else asked... by any chance do you have an oversized tb and/or aftermarket plenum??? also if you have cai, is the filter exposed/in engine bay, or down in the fender?
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:11 AM   #150
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Quote:
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don't recall if i or anyone else asked... by any chance do you have an oversized tb and/or aftermarket plenum??? also if you have cai, is the filter exposed/in engine bay, or down in the fender?
No, TB and plenum appear to be stock. I have the JLT CAI that use the shaker hood. I did mention to the Bama team asking if they thought that there was too much air during 2-3 shifts and 3-4 shifts. I think that's the only time the shaker really adds air and makes a difference.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:31 AM   #151
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Re: Knock & Ping question

jeez... really seems like touched on just about everything. who knows, maybe it is time to check fuel pump/pressure?!

r u thinking about taking it in to someone to get it looked at, or did bama have any other suggests??? please let us all know what you find out!
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:55 AM   #152
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Re: Knock & Ping question

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAS97GT View Post
Same here. Cept I have the LW. Can I data log and program my tuner?
Oh, and the data log software was a free download.

You enter the serial number on the back of your tuner and it takes you to the download site. I think it was the download on the bottom of the page...

SCT Performance - More Power! Less Fuel!

---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by imhooked View Post
jeez... really seems like touched on just about everything. who knows, maybe it is time to check fuel pump/pressure?!

r u thinking about taking it in to someone to get it looked at, or did bama have any other suggests??? please let us all know what you find out!
The only thing they suggested was the copper plugs. They didn't say anything about the data from the data log. I asume it looked normal...?

I was thinking about checking fuel pressure as well. I think someone suggested it.
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Old 07-30-2012, 01:43 PM   #153
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
I thought they were the same as the 03 Mach's, but I'll happily take the extra HP!

The model tuner I have is a SCT SF3/X3.

TH
Tried that and they want a serial number to access downloads.
I was looking for the owner/user manual?
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Old 07-30-2012, 01:55 PM   #154
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Re: Knock & Ping question

i just did a test on mine and here what i found(if you're interested)... may try another adjust later, but:

1. have been running stock all last week. no pinging, but car 'no go fast'
2. flashed ecu with 87 street tune BUT i took 3 degrees of timing out global
3. warmed car up fully(ambient not as bad as last week, but still warm... maybe low 80 and muggy). SO, 'try to go fast', but pinging occurs. (oddly, seemed the worst right when i pressed clutch in and changed gears, kinda like what you mentioned?!)
4. back to gas station. fill tank with 8 gallons 93 (other half is 87)
5. cruise back, pass the house, and try to climb next hill i come upon in 5th, at 45-ish mph. some pinging, but not as bad as expected.
6. cruise rest of way to main road. opened her up and hammered through gears. no pinging this time and 'car go fast'

later when i get to head back out for joy ride, and only after washing car, i might flash to stock, and then re-program with 4 degrees out, and maybe even try bumping mixture rich(this is only at WOT) by smallest increment(+2) and see how that goes. should also be a little hotter out then.

what have we learned??? damned if i really know, but seems a little better anyway; hope this makes a little sense, and if anyone wants to chime in w/suggestion, advice or clarification, by all means do-
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Old 07-30-2012, 02:06 PM   #155
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by imhooked View Post
i just did a test on mine and here what i found(if you're interested)... may try another adjust later, but:

1. have been running stock all last week. no pinging, but car 'no go fast'
2. flashed ecu with 87 street tune BUT i took 3 degrees of timing out global
3. warmed car up fully(ambient not as bad as last week, but still warm... maybe low 80 and muggy). SO, 'try to go fast', but pinging occurs. (oddly, seemed the worst right when i pressed clutch in and changed gears, kinda like what you mentioned?!)
4. back to gas station. fill tank with 8 gallons 93 (other half is 87)
5. cruise back, pass the house, and try to climb next hill i come upon in 5th, at 45-ish mph. some pinging, but not as bad as expected.
6. cruise rest of way to main road. opened her up and hammered through gears. no pinging this time and 'car go fast'

later when i get to head back out for joy ride, and only after washing car, i might flash to stock, and then re-program with 4 degrees out, and maybe even try bumping mixture rich(this is only at WOT) by smallest increment(+2) and see how that goes. should also be a little hotter out then.

what have we learned??? damned if i really know, but seems a little better anyway; hope this makes a little sense, and if anyone wants to chime in w/suggestion, advice or clarification, by all means do-
If you have the same tuner as Azure does then you may have just answered my question.
It does have provisions for retarding and advancing timing then right?

Being "muggy" (high humidity) may have some noticeable effect if your tune is right on the edge.

P.S. You really want to limit the "pinging" and not cause it to happen anymore than absolutely necessary. Each time it does that you risk damaging your engine.
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Old 07-30-2012, 02:18 PM   #156
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Re: Knock & Ping question

TH,
Yes the same tuner(our 'mods may be a little different though). And yes, can be changed somewhat (btw, would you find it odd that tune files only have options to ******, and not advance, timing??? actually, just let me double check options again before you answer)

Also, without knowing someone 'in the biz', I do not know if it's possible to know what the timing base/charts would be, but don't quote me on that... maybe someone else can answer.

mixture can be adjusted more rich at WOT, in increments of '+2', as stated. there are other user adjustable settings, but not so much affecting performance/topic at hand(i.e. fan on temps, gear ratio, speed/rpm governors etc etc)

if want to know anything more specific let me know and will try and answer from my experience, but bear in mind I'm a user, not a tuner.
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Old 07-30-2012, 03:22 PM   #157
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When I get home I'll get my S/N so we can see if there is any user manual, etc. I did download a data logging program for this tuner that allows you to select points to record, chart, save, etc. seems like there could be some other features within the program that might be helpful. I might have posted the name of further up the thread.
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Old 07-30-2012, 05:16 PM   #158
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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TH,
Yes the same tuner(our 'mods may be a little different though). And yes, can be changed somewhat (btw, would you find it odd that tune files only have options to ******, and not advance, timing??? actually, just let me double check options again before you answer)

Also, without knowing someone 'in the biz', I do not know if it's possible to know what the timing base/charts would be, but don't quote me on that... maybe someone else can answer.

mixture can be adjusted more rich at WOT, in increments of '+2', as stated. there are other user adjustable settings, but not so much affecting performance/topic at hand(i.e. fan on temps, gear ratio, speed/rpm governors etc etc)

if want to know anything more specific let me know and will try and answer from my experience, but bear in mind I'm a user, not a tuner.
I would hazard a guess that they don't allow advancing because it could lead to detonation and engine damage. I would guess the same thing might apply to the richness increase. If they leaned out to far they could burn a hole in a piston pretty quickly.
If the CR is pretty high, they probably do that to prevent users from unknowingly damaging their engines.
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Old 07-30-2012, 06:24 PM   #159
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hey azure. did you try running 93 octane on your 91 tune? if the tuner has the adjustments stated i would try either adding a hair fuel or pulling a hair timing. im sure that would help.

i am real curious to what they could actually tune motor wise, since they say that the machs tune already requires higher octane fuel and dont have much room to play with timing. it seems like its a fine line they are playing with.

---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

I would hazard a guess that they don't allow advancing because it could lead to detonation and engine damage. I would guess the same thing might apply to the richness increase. If they leaned out to far they could burn a hole in a piston pretty quickly.
If the CR is pretty high, they probably do that to prevent users from unknowingly damaging their engines.
nice avatar!
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:14 PM   #160
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Hey azure talk to nomad about the cr on your engine.
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:20 PM   #161
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Yeah, I've been putting in Shell 93 since I bought it. I've been trying to setup something conservative to keep me worry free. It hasn't worked so far.


I got an updated tune this afternoon from Bama. It is to address the areas right after you shift and punch the gas. So it will have basically stock timing during those times. I'm not sure how they do it. It's magic! I'll be trying that out the next few days. Meanwhile, I'm gonna pickup a new PCV valve just for poops and laughs.
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:09 PM   #162
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Quote:
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Hey azure talk to nomad about the cr on your engine.
CR? Sorry, I'm still working on engine talk, Lol
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:36 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure

CR? Sorry, I'm still working on engine talk, Lol
I'm going with compression ratio. its a factor in what fuel u use.
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:44 PM   #164
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Quote:
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I'm going with compression ratio. its a factor in what fuel u use.
The Mach engines are 10:1, I believe. It even says use 91 octane on the gauge. I've been using Shell 93.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:59 AM   #165
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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nice avatar!
Thank you, I made it up with pics from the net.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Yeah, I've been putting in Shell 93 since I bought it. I've been trying to setup something conservative to keep me worry free. It hasn't worked so far.

I got an updated tune this afternoon from Bama. It is to address the areas right after you shift and punch the gas. So it will have basically stock timing during those times. I'm not sure how they do it. It's magic! I'll be trying that out the next few days. Meanwhile, I'm gonna pickup a new PCV valve just for poops and laughs.
It's me again, as curious as ever. Can you get that tuner to spit out a document with the tuning parameters/data log on its tune?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstang View Post
I'm going with compression ratio. its a factor in what fuel u use.

That's exactly what it be.
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:18 AM   #166
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Re: Knock & Ping question

TH- yeah that seems to make sense about not advancing, or being able to lean, with the handheld tuner

Azure- wow, they could edit timing/mixture right at shift?! Your trans is manual, not auto, yes? How they know when you shift?! (Does sound like magic!). Hope it works
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Old 07-31-2012, 08:20 AM   #167
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse View Post
It's me again, as curious as ever. Can you get that tuner to spit out a document with the tuning parameters/data log on its tune?
Yup, you connect the tuner to a laptop running a SCT program called LiveLink Gen-II. With the laptop connected to the tuner, you connect the tuner to the ODB2 port. You select which points to record (the points were what Bama requested I select) and start/stop/save the logging from the laptop. You'll see a live graph of your data points, but my laptop is an older model so I couldn't see it that well when in the car. The saved log output was CSV file type. It looks like it records every second. The file is BIG (mine was just over 6MB).

I'm going to put my data log file in my DropBox. I'll post a link when I get it on there, in case anyone wants to take a gander.

I work with data acquisition systems all the time at work, so this kinda stuff is pretty cool to me.

I took ~half the data and created another CSV file to cut down the size...
This is data log part1 - idle/~5min drive/WOT 2nd-3rd shift
http://db.tt/LZUDiKCd

This is data log part2 - WOT 3rd-4th/turned around/WOT 1st-2nd (missed 2nd )
http://db.tt/esf2hM6D
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Old 07-31-2012, 09:02 AM   #168
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Re: Knock & Ping question

pretty cool. do you know how to decipher all those numbers, and did you see any changes at your shift/ping 'moment'

i'll have to try and download that software on my laptop too.

let us know progress and if problem gets rectified-
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Old 07-31-2012, 09:27 AM   #169
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Quote:
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pretty cool. do you know how to decipher all those numbers, and did you see any changes at your shift/ping 'moment'

i'll have to try and download that software on my laptop too.

let us know progress and if problem gets rectified-
You can see the vehicle speed and RPM in there. All the data is in columns. I'm not sure how to decipher some of the other data points, but you can probably tell where I shift into the next gear. I did WOT's from one gear to the next since that is where I experienced the pinging, rather than just WOT through all gears (1-4) at once.

It's a lot of data so you could probably delete some parts that were not WOT and graph all points. Maybe the fuel dips on the graph? Deciphering the data, there is where the magic is.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:56 PM   #170
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Re: Knock & Ping question

Very good info. Now we just need the ranges and and an explanation of how some of those numbers convert into known values. Say percentage for fuel and degrees for timing.

Once we know how the numbers figure in we should be able to take the data provided and convert it to known, easier to read and understand data. We could add columns, insert the conversion formula alongside the column we want to know more about and let Excel convert it to known values.
Then you would be able to "tune it yourself" a lot more easily.



If they are charging you for tunes, they probably won't want to give up that info, if they provide them for free then it would be in their best interest to give you the conversion and range information.


If they won't give up the info, I would consider finding a tuner company that would.
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:22 PM   #171
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Re: Knock & Ping question

I flashed my latest tune, 91R w/mods in fuel at higher RPM and mods to specifically address WOT right when you dump it after changing gears (manual tranny), and there doesn't seem to be any pinging that I can detect. This was later in the evening, with the outside temps around 85°F. I'm going to run with this one a few days to get more time test it out. The bummer is that you can really tell the difference in power loss compared to the 91R without any mods.

If you add more fuel at WOT, could that cause the performace to decline? I'm curious, because when Bama made these changes, that's when I noticed the most decline in performace.
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:07 PM   #172
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A lean mixture sometimes generates more horsepower to an extent. Racers usually try to tune to right before detonation. That would be an aggressive tune.

The added fuel is probably helping cool the top of the piston more. But your new tune is probably more on the safer side, than aggressive. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well.

I don't remember the exact numbers/ratios. But say a perfect fuel mixture would be something like 14.7:1 . But at that mixture there isn't really enough fuel to cool the piston each stroke. So most people tune to say 13:1. There would be more fuel in that mixture making it safer. Now if someone was running forced induction they would add even more fuel because of the add heat to say 12:1.
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:37 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstang
A lean mixture sometimes generates more horsepower to an extent. Racers usually try to tune to right before detonation. That would be an aggressive tune.

The added fuel is probably helping cool the top of the piston more. But your new tune is probably more on the safer side, than aggressive. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well.

I don't remember the exact numbers/ratios. But say a perfect fuel mixture would be something like 14.7:1 . But at that mixture there isn't really enough fuel to cool the piston each stroke. So most people tune to say 13:1. There would be more fuel in that mixture making it safer. Now if someone was running forced induction they would add even more fuel because of the add heat to say 12:1.
I think I understand. There is more fuel to burn, maybe more than needed, but too much in ratio with the air to detonate early.

It's good to be on the safe side
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:51 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure

I think I understand. There is more fuel to burn, maybe more than needed, but too much in ratio with the air to detonate early.

It's good to be on the safe side
Yeah I'm sure trojan can explain it better and more accurate.
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Old 07-31-2012, 09:40 PM   #175
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by dreamstang View Post
Yeah I'm sure trojan can explain it better and more accurate.
Nope, you did just fine.
The 14.1 is the perfect ratio scenario, which almost never happens.
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