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Old 08-03-2012, 12:20 PM   #211
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Maybe I need to get some new injectors..?
You can test them and clean them.
Check the spray pattern when cleaning.
A nice fog is what you want any streams or dripping can indicate a faulty injector.
See the Useful Info thread in the 79-95 forums for some how to's.
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:50 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

You can test them and clean them.
Check the spray pattern when cleaning.
A nice fog is what you want any streams or dripping can indicate a faulty injector.
See the Useful Info thread in the 79-95 forums for some how to's.
Cool, thanks TH! I didn't realize the pushrod 5.0's had injectors like these.

---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------

And Trojan, I will not hold you responsible for my forth coming flaming injuries.
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:59 PM   #213
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Cool, thanks TH! I didn't realize the pushrod 5.0's had injectors like these.

---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------

And Trojan, I will not hold you responsible for my forth coming flaming injuries.
Thanks.
Note: Be safe, DO NOT get burned! It's painful.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:14 PM   #214
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Re: Knock & Ping question

Az,
Bummer, man... (damn these fram pop-ups' are pissin me off).

Anyway, injectors might help if not getting enuff fuel. Btw, have you done a fuel system cleaning lately??? Just a thought.

Is there a shop near you that does SCT tuning(i know of a dealer near me that does, although i don't know how good they are)? Maybe they could take a look at it for a modest fee.

Otherwise, dyno/performance shop... I know of one in Ct. One other option is try Brent at Brenspeed... you could prolly even forward him your datalog file ahead of time(after speaking with him, or Miles). They would just need to know your 'mod' list tooof course. I hear he's good, and they charge 75 bucks for 1 tune. I can get you his email/phone if you decide to try.

Anyway, good luck. If you want to try what I did (remove little timing, add a little fuel at WOT, and try higher octane than tune 'calls' for), I can help if you haven't gone through it yet manually on the handheld... it's really easy. Later-
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:35 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imhooked
Az,
Bummer, man... (damn these fram pop-ups' are pissin me off).

Anyway, injectors might help if not getting enuff fuel. Btw, have you done a fuel system cleaning lately??? Just a thought.

Is there a shop near you that does SCT tuning(i know of a dealer near me that does, although i don't know how good they are)? Maybe they could take a look at it for a modest fee.

Otherwise, dyno/performance shop... I know of one in Ct. One other option is try Brent at Brenspeed... you could prolly even forward him your datalog file ahead of time(after speaking with him, or Miles). They would just need to know your 'mod' list tooof course. I hear he's good, and they charge 75 bucks for 1 tune. I can get you his email/phone if you decide to try.

Anyway, good luck. If you want to try what I did (remove little timing, add a little fuel at WOT, and try higher octane than tune 'calls' for), I can help if you haven't gone through it yet manually on the handheld... it's really easy. Later-
Thanks for all your input! I've been putting Shell 93 in since I bought her. So I'm looking for something safe, like a 91 tune, to settle on. Do you know if Brenspeed uses SCT tuners? Honestly, Bama does not seem to be putting much effort into getting my tune right. This weekend I'll check the injectors. Did you modify options within one of your tunes or do a strategy tune?
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:43 PM   #216
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Yeah honestly, I usually think bama is on top of things it seems like. But with all the hassles you have had, I think I would be telling them to shove there tunes up there a$$. Eventually this is gonna destroy your motor. Every time you hear that ping that could be a hole working into the top of your piston. That really sux man. I hope you get it right.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:57 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstang
Yeah honestly, I usually think bama is on top of things it seems like. But with all the hassles you have had, I think I would be telling them to shove there tunes up there a$$. Eventually this is gonna destroy your motor. Every time you hear that ping that could be a hole working into the top of your piston. That really sux man. I hope you get it right.
Thanks dream. I've been really having heartburn over this the last few days. I hope I can get some help from those guys next week, or I'm looking elsewhere.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:03 PM   #218
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Re: Knock & Ping question

oh, sorry... first, i wasnt at end of thread so missed THs comment on cleaning injectors!!! and i tried the strategy tune once and didnt really like it. i could try it again though, know that ive been using tuner and the 'stang more. and yes, you can change one, or a bunch, of the user adjustable items every time you load your tune. its a piece of cake once you get the hang of navigation(this will include not changing something accidentally, which i can explain why it is so easy to do in the beginning!), and most are not really performance related.

and brenspeed does indeed tune for the sct x3/mustangs!!! will send link shortly-

---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------

Quote:
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oh, sorry... first, i wasnt at end of thread so missed THs comment on cleaning injectors!!! and i tried the strategy tune once and didnt really like it. i could try it again though, know that ive been using tuner and the 'stang more. and yes, you can change one, or a bunch, of the user adjustable items every time you load your tune. its a piece of cake once you get the hang of navigation(this will include not changing something accidentally, which i can explain why it is so easy to do in the beginning!), and most are not really performance related.

and brenspeed does indeed tune for the sct x3/mustangs!!! will send link shortly-
and here it is... again i also have direct email for Miles/Brent if u want.

SCT X3
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:11 PM   #219
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Imhooked, do you know how much timing they advance in our tunes? I'm willing to tinker myself, but not if I don't know where the "0" point or base is. For instance, If I can get the stock tune just a little more responsive, I'd be happy.
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Old 08-04-2012, 08:30 AM   #220
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Imhooked, do you know how much timing they advance in our tunes? I'm willing to tinker myself, but not if I don't know where the "0" point or base is. For instance, If I can get the stock tune just a little more responsive, I'd be happy.
good ?, and answer is no. as alluded to several times previous, don't know if bama or anyone else wants end user to know. maybe sct could say??? (oh... duh! will try to google 4.6 2v base timing) now that you mentioned it, i'll have to look at stock tune and see if/how much timing can be added to 'stock' tune. also gonna try the strategy tune just for kicks and let you know how it felt.

you can remove 3 or 4 degrees 'global', not touch the 3 separate rpm range timings, and add maybe +2 to mixture at WOT. also run slightly higher octane than tune is slated for. let me know if want help and i can walk through the setting adjusts before you flash the tune.

---------- Post added at 07:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by imhooked View Post
good ?, and answer is no. as alluded to several times previous, don't know if bama or anyone else wants end user to know. maybe sct could say??? (oh... duh! will try to google 4.6 2v base timing) now that you mentioned it, i'll have to look at stock tune and see if/how much timing can be added to 'stock' tune. also gonna try the strategy tune just for kicks and let you know how it felt.

you can remove 3 or 4 degrees 'global', not touch the 3 separate rpm range timings, and add maybe +2 to mixture at WOT. also run slightly higher octane than tune is slated for. let me know if want help and i can walk through the setting adjusts before you flash the tune.
just saw on another mustang forum, and a how to for 1998 truck w/4.6; looks like base is 10 degrees.
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Old 08-04-2012, 08:59 AM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imhooked
you can remove 3 or 4 degrees 'global', not touch the 3 separate rpm range timings, and add maybe +2 to mixture at WOT. also run slightly higher octane than tune is slated for. let me know if want help and i can walk through the setting adjusts before you flash the tune.
.
What happens when you remove deg of timing? I understand the richer fuel outcome.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:16 AM   #222
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Re: Knock & Ping question

for one, you should get closer to remedy for pinging! however, performance is diminished somewhat (although it also also diminshed when an engine is pinging!)
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:22 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imhooked
for one, you should get closer to remedy for pinging! however, performance is diminished somewhat (although it also also diminshed when an engine is pinging!)
You wants is stupid, I don't really have diminished performance when I hear this light pinging. Do you think that is because of the knock sensors in action?
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:23 AM   #224
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Re: Knock & Ping question

Do those engines have timing marks on the balancer or crank pulley? If they do and you can use a timing light you should be able to determine where you are with your timing and be able to figure out what the tuner does by making a timing change at idle on the tuner, then checking with the timing light to see which way it went and how much.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:27 AM   #225
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And I have to say, the second 91R tune I got turned this car into a BEAST! I should work from that tune and reduce timing between 4000 - 8000, you think?

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse
Do those engines have timing marks on the balancer or crank pulley? If they do and you can use a timing light you should be able to determine where you are with your timing and be able to figure out what the tuner does by making a timing change at idle on the tuner, then checking with the timing light to see which way it went and how much.
No, I looked for that when you showed me where the crank sensor was a week or two ago. In the tuner menus, you see 0, -1, -2, etc up to -8 as options to adjust timing manually.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:31 AM   #226
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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No, I looked for that when you showed me where the crank sensor was a week or two ago. In the tuner menus, you see 0, -1, -2, etc up to -8 as options to adjust timing manually.
Then figure out how to get it on TDC, #1 piston, rig a pointer, mark TDC, measure diameter, divide by 360° and mark off balancer 30° in both directions from TDC. Then you will be able to use the timing light and figure out what the tuner is doing.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:41 AM   #227
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
You wants is stupid, I don't really have diminished performance when I hear this light pinging. Do you think that is because of the knock sensors in action?
"you wants is stupid"? don't understand.

anyway, yeah use your 91r tune, and reduce timing. at least 2 degrees, or maybe even 4 to start. could try just the 4-8k range first. i did global because i also had pinging just on light acceleration in 1st (occasionally), climbing hills and trying not to downshift, and at wot(or hard acceleration)
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:51 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

Then figure out how to get it on TDC, #1 piston, rig a pointer, mark TDC, measure diameter, divide by 360° and mark off balancer 30° in both directions from TDC. Then you will be able to use the timing light and figure out what the tuner is doing.
I'm about to enter our State Fair, but I'll need to talk to you guys about this cause it may be above my abilities. Thanks TH, I really appreciate your help and input!

I toyed with the Strategy Tune section of the tuner last night. When I get home, I want to provide some detail about this. This is where you get the option of + timing and - timing. I have not seen anyone on ME try this out yet. Stay tuned for that.

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by imhooked

"you wants is stupid"? don't understand.

anyway, yeah use your 91r tune, and reduce timing. at least 2 degrees, or maybe even 4 to start. could try just the 4-8k range first. i did global because i also had pinging just on light acceleration in 1st (occasionally), climbing hills and trying not to downshift, and at wot(or hard acceleration)
I'm sorry imhooked, that was iPhone auto-correct!

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------

It was supposed to be "you know what is stupid,".

Oops

---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

And thanks, that will help me as mine was WOT 5k and up on load. Also, really appreciate your help and input imhooked.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:54 AM   #229
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
I'm about to enter our State Fair, but I'll need to talk to you guys about this cause it may be above my abilities. Thanks TH, I really appreciate your help and input!

I toyed with the Strategy Tune section of the tuner last night. When I get home, I want to provide some detail about this. This is where you get the option of + timing and - timing. I have not seen anyone on ME try this out yet. Stay tuned for that.
Once you can figure out exactly what happens when you make changes with the tuner, then you will be on your way to tuning it by yourself with confidence.
Be sure to write down what you did and everything you learned about making changes with the tuner. Other people who have them would likely pay for that knowledge, so they could be able to confidently tune their own engines without having to go back to the manufacturers or professional tuners every time they make a change.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:01 AM   #230
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
I'm about to enter our State Fair, but I'll need to talk to you guys about this cause it may be above my abilities. Thanks TH, I really appreciate your help and input!

I toyed with the Strategy Tune section of the tuner last night. When I get home, I want to provide some detail about this. This is where you get the option of + timing and - timing. I have not seen anyone on ME try this out yet. Stay tuned for that.

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------



I'm sorry imhooked, that was iPhone auto-correct!

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------

It was supposed to be "you know what is stupid,".

Oops

---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

And thanks, that will help me as mine was WOT 5k and up on load. Also, really appreciate your help and input imhooked.
here is my cell... i kinda get tired of typing sometimes. when you are ready, and in car w/tuner, can call me and talk. i'll walk u thru the change and flash, and tell you about the couple of caveats/nuances of the adjusting procedure to make sure you don't unknowingly get the wrong setting input for of any the parameters(it's really not hard; just gotta go through it couple times and becomeS second nature, like riding bike, OR DRIVING MANUAL!)

have fun at your state fair

---------- Post added at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 AM ----------

forgot the dang number; it is 845-797-1864. can call anytime till 10pm,; if i miss call will buzz back ASAP
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:10 AM   #231
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Hey azure. If you want to mark the crank and try a timing light like trojan suggested, I have some timing tape I can send you. I only paid a few bucks for it so no charge if you want it. It is bright green and has a sticky back on it with timing marks. You just line up the 0* and wrap it around the crank pulley. If you want it pm me your address.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:28 AM   #232
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Hey azure. If you want to mark the crank and try a timing light like trojan suggested, I have some timing tape I can send you. I only paid a few bucks for it so no charge if you want it. It is bright green and has a sticky back on it with timing marks. You just line up the 0* and wrap it around the crank pulley. If you want it pm me your address.
Nice gesture dream, but it won't work unless the balancer/pulley it is used on is the same size as the one the tape is intended for. Different diameter balancers/pulleys require different spaced markings.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:30 AM   #233
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Nice gesture dream, but it won't work unless the balancer/pulley it is used on is the same size as the one the tape is intended for. Different diameter balancers/pulleys require different spaced markings.
Yeah I didn't think of that. but I guess he could measure the pulley and see if its close.
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:45 PM   #234
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse View Post
You can test them and clean them.
Check the spray pattern when cleaning.
A nice fog is what you want any streams or dripping can indicate a faulty injector.
See the Useful Info thread in the 79-95 forums for some how to's.
Hey TH,
I tried browsing, and searching for this thread... how in the world do I find this Useful Info thread?! Thanks-

Joe
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:46 PM   #235
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Hey TH,
I tried browsing, and searching for this thread... how in the world do I find this Useful Info thread?! Thanks-

Joe
It's in the stickies section.
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Old 08-04-2012, 01:54 PM   #236
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Hey TH,
I tried browsing, and searching for this thread... how in the world do I find this Useful Info thread?! Thanks-

Joe
Raht cheer' - Useful Info
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:25 PM   #237
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Re: Knock & Ping question

I would give a little while to learn the new programm..Mine ping and hesitated the very first time i hit ,,but after that it did good..Also make sure your MAF sensors not dirty and reading a low BARO reading..If so ,,alot of times you can clean the sensor and disconnect the neg cable and reboot the computer
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:29 PM   #238
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I would give a little while to learn the new programm..Mine ping and hesitated the very first time i hit ,,but after that it did good..Also make sure your MAF sensors not dirty and reading a low BARO reading..If so ,,alot of times you can clean the sensor and disconnect the neg cable and reboot the computer
i think azure did the proper idle relearn. and i would also try to resolve the problem as quick as possible being it can destroy the motor.

@trojan ... how do knock sensors work? shouldnt he bemthrowing codes? or does it just make adjustmemts silently?
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:58 PM   #239
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I would give a little while to learn the new programm..Mine ping and hesitated the very first time i hit ,,but after that it did good..Also make sure your MAF sensors not dirty and reading a low BARO reading..If so ,,alot of times you can clean the sensor and disconnect the neg cable and reboot the computer
Thanks for the tip! I actually had cleaned my MAF just before getting my tuner. I also purchased a new JLT cold air kit, changed plugs, cleaned my throttle body and the IAC. I didn't want any of these to disrupt the whole tuning process. Kinda like starting at perfect zero. (should have changed the PCV too, but now that's completed)

Again, thanks for the tip!

---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstang

i think azure did the proper idle relearn. and i would also try to resolve the problem as quick as possible being it can destroy the motor.

@trojan ... how do knock sensors work? shouldnt he bemthrowing codes? or does it just make adjustmemts silently?
Yup, I perform the idle re-learn each time I've flashed a new tune.

I was wondering about this over the past couple times I had pinging. I was thinking about how the tuners disable the rear O2 sensors when you go catless so it got me wondering if there were any codes that were suppressed. I connected the tuner and checked, just in case, but there were none present.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:27 PM   #240
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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@trojan ... how do knock sensors work? shouldnt he bemthrowing codes? or does it just make adjustmemts silently?
They can work several different ways and adjust timing and/or A/F mixture. It depends upon what type is chosen by the car/engine manufacturer and how it is programmed into the ECU.


Here's links to some knock sensor info. - How do knock sensors work? - Knock (Detonation) Sensors

After reading up about them I now wonder if you have a battle going on between the knock sensors and your tuner and the ECU is unable to correctly interpret the best corrective action?
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:38 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

They can work several different ways and adjust timing and/or A/F mixture. It depends upon what type is chosen by the car/engine manufacturer and how it is programmed into the ECU.

Here's links to some knock sensor info. - How do knock sensors work? - Knock (Detonation) Sensors

After reading up about them I now wonder if you have a battle going on between the knock sensors and your tuner and the ECU is unable to correctly interpret the best corrective action?
This is something I was thinking because a bad knock should throw a code correct?..but I remember azure saying he never had a code thrown..
But then again I know almost nothing when I comes to new tunes.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:04 PM   #242
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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This is something I was thinking because a bad knock should throw a code correct?..but I remember azure saying he never had a code thrown..
But then again I know almost nothing when I comes to new tunes.
It won't necessarily throw a code with a bad knock because the knock sensor is supposed to correct the tune. If it doesn't then I would think that it would throw a code that tells that the knock sensor is malfunctioning. I don't really know for sure.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:25 PM   #243
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This is something I was thinking because a bad knock should throw a code correct?..but I remember azure saying he never had a code thrown..
But then again I know almost nothing when I comes to new tunes.
that was exactly my thought to.
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:59 AM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

They can work several different ways and adjust timing and/or A/F mixture. It depends upon what type is chosen by the car/engine manufacturer and how it is programmed into the ECU.

Here's links to some knock sensor info. - How do knock sensors work? - Knock (Detonation) Sensors

After reading up about them I now wonder if you have a battle going on between the knock sensors and your tuner and the ECU is unable to correctly interpret the best corrective action?
These links are awesome! I really like that wells counter point. A lot of the knock & ping explanation is what I've heard from you guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

It won't necessarily throw a code with a bad knock because the knock sensor is supposed to correct the tune. If it doesn't then I would think that it would throw a code that tells that the knock sensor is malfunctioning. I don't really know for sure.
The way I read it, many of the ODB2 systems have knock sensors on them. When you have knock or ping, you wont see a CEL. The PCM will ****** timing until it gone, if it senses it long enough. The PCM will also advance timing if needed. The sensors are pretty robust, but failed sensors will throw a code.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:09 AM   #245
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Re: Knock & Ping question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
These links are awesome! I really like that wells counter point. A lot of the knock & ping explanation is what I've heard from you guys.

The way I read it, many of the ODB2 systems have knock sensors on them. When you have knock or ping, you wont see a CEL. The PCM will ****** timing until it gone, if it senses it long enough. The PCM will also advance timing if needed. The sensors are pretty robust, but failed sensors will throw a code.
That's why I was wondering if there was a conflict with the tuner.
The sensor is ok so there is no code and........
Maybe the knock sensor is trying to ****** the timing, but the tuner is trying to advance the timing or vice/versa and the ECU is confused by the differing inputs, therefore it does nothing and you get the detonation issues when you shouldn't have any and no codes to give you a clue as to what is going on?
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