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Old 08-05-2012, 01:29 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

That's why I was wondering if there was a conflict with the tuner.
The sensor is ok so there is no code and........
Maybe the knock sensor is trying to ****** the timing, but the tuner is trying to advance the timing or vice/versa and the ECU is confused by the differing inputs, therefore it does nothing and you get the detonation issues when you shouldn't have any and no codes to give you a clue as to what is going on?
wouldnt you think that the tuner would have some kind of provisions? other wise i think this could be regular problem.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:37 AM   #247
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After some back and forth here with you guys, I decided to dip into the "advanced option" of a tune. I chose an earlier version of a 91 octane racing tune (91R) that was touched just once by Bama since original delivery. I changed the timing for the 4000 to 8000 RPM range to -3. This should ****** the timing by 3 (degrees I assume) from where the tune was set by Bama.

I was apprehensive to give it a try, but I tightened up my keister, and took her for a ride. Got her good and warmed up, pulled 1st to 2nd, no pinging. Drove another few minutes and slowed to ~25 while in 4th, them tromped the gas, no pinging. I drove to my spot where road has a slight incline and pulled 2nd to 3rd, no pinging. And finally, I got on the highway and pulled 3rd to 4th, again no pinging. I feel really good about this, mainly because progress is realized. I tested these areas because that was really the only place where pinging occurred. Yay!

Tomorrow, I'm going to document all the options available within the Strategy Tune menus because I think this could be a better method to tune for some folks. There are many more options available with this tune method. Stay tuned. (if you're not totally bored with this thread )
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:41 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
After some back and forth here with you guys, I decided to dip into the "advanced option" of a tune. I chose an earlier version of a 91 octane racing tune (91R) that was touched just once by Bama since original delivery. I changed the timing for the 4000 to 8000 RPM range to -3. This should ****** the timing by 3 (degrees I assume) from where the tune was set by Bama.

I was apprehensive to give it a try, but I tightened up my keister, and took her for a ride. Got her good and warmed up, pulled 1st to 2nd, no pinging. Drove another few minutes and slowed to ~25 while in 4th, them tromped the gas, no pinging. I drove to my spot where road has a slight incline and pulled 2nd to 3rd, no pinging. And finally, I got on the highway and pulled 3rd to 4th, again no pinging. I feel really good about this, mainly because progress is realized. I tested these areas because that was really the only place where pinging occurred. Yay!

Tomorrow, I'm going to document all the options available within the Strategy Tune menus because I think this could be a better method to tune for some folks. There are many more options available with this tune method. Stay tuned. (if you're not totally bored with this thread )
awsome man. yes usually pulling timing will do the trick. that is nice that you can do it on a certain rpm range. the question is : how much power did you lose?
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:45 AM   #249
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by dreamstang View Post
wouldnt you think that the tuner would have some kind of provisions? other wise i think this could be regular problem.
I would think so, but if it overrides the knock sensor it seems like it would throw a code. TBH, I just don't know enough about the OBDII programming.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:46 AM   #250
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
After some back and forth here with you guys, I decided to dip into the "advanced option" of a tune. I chose an earlier version of a 91 octane racing tune (91R) that was touched just once by Bama since original delivery. I changed the timing for the 4000 to 8000 RPM range to -3. This should ****** the timing by 3 (degrees I assume) from where the tune was set by Bama.

I was apprehensive to give it a try, but I tightened up my keister, and took her for a ride. Got her good and warmed up, pulled 1st to 2nd, no pinging. Drove another few minutes and slowed to ~25 while in 4th, them tromped the gas, no pinging. I drove to my spot where road has a slight incline and pulled 2nd to 3rd, no pinging. And finally, I got on the highway and pulled 3rd to 4th, again no pinging. I feel really good about this, mainly because progress is realized. I tested these areas because that was really the only place where pinging occurred. Yay!

Tomorrow, I'm going to document all the options available within the Strategy Tune menus because I think this could be a better method to tune for some folks. There are many more options available with this tune method. Stay tuned. (if you're not totally bored with this thread )
Fantastic! You're my new Mustang tuning hero!
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:55 AM   #251
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I saw your posts after my long book ^ LOL

Based on how the tunes Bama adjusted for me, I think they were taking a very small amount (-1 at a time) of global timing, rather than in the areas where the pinging was happening. So, I would still experience the pinging. Taking -3 out where it has been happening, seems to be the right direction. I will probably ****** a bit more so I'm safe. Safe is good!

The real question is, what advance does Bama make on their street, performance, and racing tunes.

---------- Post added at 02:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan Horse

Fantastic! You're my new Mustang tuning hero!
Ha! Aw shucks

---------- Post added at 02:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstang

awsome man. yes usually pulling timing will do the trick. that is nice that you can do it on a certain rpm range. the question is : how much power did you lose?
It pulls freaky strong from idle to 3500. You can feel a little less pull in the higher RPM ranges than before my changes. But I don't think it's too bad. Once I write some notes down, I plan to test two different tunes on one of our test and tune nights at the track in the coming weeks.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:41 AM   #252
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Re: Knock & Ping question

AZ,
Wasn't too hard, right? Was surprised to hear as I think you said you only took the timing out in 4-8k range, but glad it worked. (here is tricky question about the tuner/timing, if anyone want to try and answer... if when adjusting parameters of tune before flash, you FIRST take 2 degrees out 'global', but then also take 2 degrees out in say the 4-8k range, do we now have 4 degrees out in 4-8k, or does the global setting just override adjustments to other ranges???)

Anyway, being you asked, I tried my 'strategy' tune yesterday, set the octane to 89, and was surprised! It really ran pretty strong, and only time I got any 'ping' was when all out, and right at instant changing gears... think if I was just pinch quicker letting out clutch The only place tune felt little weaker was just trying to keep pulling in 4th and 5th under low to moderate accelerator pressure.

Also I noticed they have separate strategy tunes just for Mach1; maybe you could give that a try too! Talk 2 ya later-
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:26 AM   #253
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Re: Knock & Ping question

I'm currently running a rev4 91 racing tune from Bama the Mike Wilson made using the information I gave him from adjusting the earlier 91R tune. I will perform a data log later this week when the weather gets hotter. Mike was much more helpful and I feel like we'll get a good solid and safe tune once he has more data. He said I was basically setting the timing to the stock setting by taking out 3 degrees between 4000 and 8000 RPMs.

When I talk to Mike again and discuss the data I'll see if I can get a little more information about the adjustments that are made that are not seen. I don't think they are secrets are anything like that, but I think there are many that will not care or not understand. Personally, for some, this information might be able to help them quickly asses a tune and what they are experiencing while testing out a tune. And to anyone who might be following along, it is very important to test your tune and pay attention to what their engine is doing. Bama, or any other performance shop, relies on you to help them create a custom tune for your ride.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:01 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
I'm currently running a rev4 91 racing tune from Bama the Mike Wilson made using the information I gave him from adjusting the earlier 91R tune. I will perform a data log later this week when the weather gets hotter. Mike was much more helpful and I feel like we'll get a good solid and safe tune once he has more data. He said I was basically setting the timing to the stock setting by taking out 3 degrees between 4000 and 8000 RPMs.

When I talk to Mike again and discuss the data I'll see if I can get a little more information about the adjustments that are made that are not seen. I don't think they are secrets are anything like that, but I think there are many that will not care or not understand. Personally, for some, this information might be able to help them quickly asses a tune and what they are experiencing while testing out a tune. And to anyone who might be following along, it is very important to test your tune and pay attention to what their engine is doing. Bama, or any other performance shop, relies on you to help them create a custom tune for your ride.
In a weeks time ill have my mach on a custom mustang dyno and will probably be doing some custom tuning. Ill let you know where I end up and what we end up putting down. I'm just hoping to get a solid pull all the way to 6800 rpm where the power graph doesn't fall on its face.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:55 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by DaBluedude

In a weeks time ill have my mach on a custom mustang dyno and will probably be doing some custom tuning. Ill let you know where I end up and what we end up putting down. I'm just hoping to get a solid pull all the way to 6800 rpm where the power graph doesn't fall on its face.
Yeah it'll be cool to see where you end up. Also, I wonder if anything else on your ride has been upgraded, like your rear diff or the tranny?
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:33 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Azure

Yeah it'll be cool to see where you end up. Also, I wonder if anything else on your ride has been upgraded, like your rear diff or the tranny?
Its got a beefy clutch in it for sure but its the stock trans. The diff is a little different but that stock 8.8 is strong. I'm not worried about driveline for now. The tuner I'm going to see thinks its possible that I've got an 11:1 bottom end with shaved heads bringing me damn close to 12:1 compression. Hence my tuning issues.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:42 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by DaBluedude

Its got a beefy clutch in it for sure but its the stock trans. The diff is a little different but that stock 8.8 is strong. I'm not worried about driveline for now. The tuner I'm going to see thinks its possible that I've got an 11:1 bottom end with shaved heads bringing me damn close to 12:1 compression. Hence my tuning issues.
Yeah, you def need 93 octane in that beast.
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:37 PM   #258
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Yeah, you def need 93 octane in that beast.
Would if I could. There is no 93 octane gas within 500 miles from me. All I can get is 91 and then 103 at 2.15$/ litre. So thats about $8/gallon. I might look into switching to e85 or something... but even that is hard to find...
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:53 PM   #259
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Would if I could. There is no 93 octane gas within 500 miles from me. All I can get is 91 and then 103 at 2.15$/ litre. So thats about $8/gallon. I might look into switching to e85 or something... but even that is hard to find...
Ouch! Yup, that will be a tough tune.
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:39 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Azure

Ouch! Yup, that will be a tough tune.
Yeah, I dialed back timing today -4 and ran wot at +1 and it pulled really hard to 7k. And I ate a c6 vette in the quarter. 112mph.. still noy super sweet but def pulling hard.
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:10 PM   #261
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At the track yesterday, I noticed I still have a slight ping right after punching it after shifting from 3rd to 4th. Maybe I'm a little lean at high speeds with the shaker hood. That is right around 100MPH. If its not raining and it ~90 like they it should be, I'll data log this afternoon.
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:16 PM   #262
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Its got a beefy clutch in it for sure but its the stock trans. The diff is a little different but that stock 8.8 is strong. I'm not worried about driveline for now. The tuner I'm going to see thinks its possible that I've got an 11:1 bottom end with shaved heads bringing me damn close to 12:1 compression. Hence my tuning issues.
How have you figured your running close to 12:1? Here's why I ask, I have had my block shaved true .008 almost the limit. My heads where shaved as well making my combustion chamber close to 51cc(52cc stock). But the overall issue is timing cover need to be shaved as well because a lip will form. Are there papers with that as well stating the work done. Because the Mach has a compression ratio of 10.1:1 stock with I believe flat top or 2cc dished pistons. On cobras and marks they have 3cc dished and yield a 9.85:1. to get anything over 10.5 you need to have domed pistons.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:48 PM   #263
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How have you figured your running close to 12:1? Here's why I ask, I have had my block shaved true .008 almost the limit. My heads where shaved as well making my combustion chamber close to 51cc(52cc stock). But the overall issue is timing cover need to be shaved as well because a lip will form. Are there papers with that as well stating the work done. Because the Mach has a compression ratio of 10.1:1 stock with I believe flat top or 2cc dished pistons. On cobras and marks they have 3cc dished and yield a 9.85:1. to get anything over 10.5 you need to have domed pistons.
the heads are shaved and the lower end isn't stock. Were prettt sure its the high compression version of the aluminator (11:1) matched with the shaved heads will get me pretty close. Were gonna run some compression testing stuff Monday. The car is making too much power right now for it to not be raised compression. Im running door to door with the new 355 geared auto 5.0s and a little faster than the current flappy paddle m3 with the comp pack.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:34 AM   #264
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the heads are shaved and the lower end isn't stock. Were prettt sure its the high compression version of the aluminator (11:1) matched with the shaved heads will get me pretty close. Were gonna run some compression testing stuff Monday. The car is making too much power right now for it to not be raised compression. Im running door to door with the new 355 geared auto 5.0s and a little faster than the current flappy paddle m3 with the comp pack.
The alumintor NA comes 10:1 not 11:1. As stated to have more than 10.2:1 you have to have domed pistons. No ford modular crate has domed pistons.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:54 AM   #265
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The alumintor NA comes 10:1 not 11:1. As stated to have more than 10.2:1 you have to have domed pistons. No ford modular crate has domed pistons.
Ill be looking into it but in the document the tuner I'm seeing on Monday sent me says the lower end was designed for 11:1. I do not know what the pistons are.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:09 AM   #266
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Well if it is not stroked or has domed pistons there is no way. For the simple fact even .30 flat tops even decked heads you'd even come close to that. Check ford racing only mod motor over 11 is a coyote and those are full crate. Simply put the timing cover won't bolt up it head are past its margin. My heads and block are shaved and it is a tight fit. So if its not domed or stroked then your paperwork. Is a typo.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:35 PM   #267
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Hopefully it gets sorted on Monday. I don't suppose you would have any insight into how it is putting down 343hp and 366tq (before 5200 rpm... tune doesnt work at all after that) with just a jlt rai and a flowmastet carback? Sounds like stock camshafts too. If anything mayb a little more agressive. But nothing too crazy.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:41 PM   #268
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Hopefully it gets sorted on Monday. I don't suppose you would have any insight into how it is putting down 343hp and 366tq (before 5200 rpm... tune doesnt work at all after that) with just a jlt rai and a flowmastet carback? Sounds like stock camshafts too. If anything mayb a little more agressive. But nothing too crazy.
That's somewhere around 400HP at the flywheel, right? Something good is going on in there
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:01 PM   #269
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Re: Knock & Ping question

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Hopefully it gets sorted on Monday. I don't suppose you would have any insight into how it is putting down 343hp and 366tq (before 5200 rpm... tune doesnt work at all after that) with just a jlt rai and a flowmastet carback? Sounds like stock camshafts too. If anything mayb a little more agressive. But nothing too crazy.
those numbers sound about right maybe alittle high. without ported heads and or cams and degreeing the timing, your not going to see much gain. If your running stock manifolds then that can be the bottle neck as well. Could also be fuel and or ignition falling down. One thing though is stock mach injectors are good for 330 or so at 85% duty cycle. Maybe upping up to 30lb injectors might help. you can find alot of info in Ford Racing's catalog. has alot of equations to figure stuff out and alot of answers to questions.
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:34 PM   #270
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those numbers sound about right maybe alittle high. without ported heads and or cams and degreeing the timing, your not going to see much gain. If your running stock manifolds then that can be the bottle neck as well. Could also be fuel and or ignition falling down. One thing though is stock mach injectors are good for 330 or so at 85% duty cycle. Maybe upping up to 30lb injectors might help. you can find alot of info in Ford Racing's catalog. has alot of equations to figure stuff out and alot of answers to questions.
Yeah were checking the injectors too. Ill be upping to terminator injectors if need be for sure. Did I mention I'm at 5200 ft? I really just want it running safe and up to redline.
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Old 08-18-2012, 11:49 AM   #271
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5200 ft yeah air density or lack there of will be an issue.
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Old 08-18-2012, 06:33 PM   #272
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5200 ft yeah air density or lack there of will be an issue.
That's what I'm thinking. I might have to get a really low psi blower just to get enough oxygen in it haha. Run like 4 lbs of boost or something.
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Old 08-18-2012, 10:32 PM   #273
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I'm around 730ft or so here. I'm pretty sure I could be getting a little too much air over 70mph. Tuner added a tiny bit more fuel at WOT.
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Old 08-18-2012, 10:33 PM   #274
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I'm around 730ft or so here. I'm pretty sure I could be getting a little too much air over 70mph. Tuner added a tiny bit more fuel at WOT.
did u just get an updated tune?
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Old 08-18-2012, 11:13 PM   #275
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did u just get an updated tune?
I did after talking to Bama about a week or so back. I was supposed to datalog this past week but it has been pretty cool outside. I hope I can do this this coming week. I want it to be at least in the mid 80's outside. Bama was pretty helpful at the last communication. I did hear a tiny bit of pinging at the track on my last run right when I tromped the gas after shifting into 4th. I feel much better about Bama getting it right, now I just need some hot weather.
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Old 08-18-2012, 11:15 PM   #276
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thats what i wondering if you had got it after that pinging from the track.
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Old 08-18-2012, 11:21 PM   #277
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thats what i wondering if you had got it after that pinging from the track.
Not yet, I want them to go by me AND the data, not just my complaining I'll try something, like diff plugs, etc. if maybe they find something that don't look right.
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Old 08-18-2012, 11:39 PM   #278
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Not yet, I want them to go by me AND the data, not just my complaining I'll try something, like diff plugs, etc. if maybe they find something that don't look right.
lol. yeah i got that now. just wasnt sure in the first post. hopefully they get it this time. how many times have they redone the tune so far? and havent you did the data logging once already on a previous attempt?

you know what im still curious about? is what the knock sensors function is with and without an aftermarket tune. does it just shoot a cel, or is it suppose to adjust parameters to eliminate the detonation? the reason i am curious is because it doesnt seem to be doing much of anything. if its suppose to do any of that maybe the device overrides its functions.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:06 AM   #279
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Well I got the car on a dyno and it is making more power than a stock mach by about 50hp. The dyno I was on was one mean heartbreaker *****. I put down 267/276 actual hp (don't have sae numbers) but that's ok because his brand new 2012 gt put down 28xhp and 26xtq. She was running really rich. 12.1-12-3 a/f ratio with too much fuel trim ratio. It also was bringing on timing way too fast and that's where my ping is coming from. I sent bama all the details and Mike is working on something for me. Oh and azure, with 1pt less timing from 2k-4k and 2pts less from 4k-8k and 2+ fuel at wot the car had as much as 11 degrees of timing difference. At the same point in the revs so that's not the solution really...
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:58 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by DaBluedude View Post
Well I got the car on a dyno and it is making more power than a stock mach by about 50hp. The dyno I was on was one mean heartbreaker *****. I put down 267/276 actual hp (don't have sae numbers) but that's ok because his brand new 2012 gt put down 28xhp and 26xtq. She was running really rich. 12.1-12-3 a/f ratio with too much fuel trim ratio. It also was bringing on timing way too fast and that's where my ping is coming from. I sent bama all the details and Mike is working on something for me. Oh and azure, with 1pt less timing from 2k-4k and 2pts less from 4k-8k and 2+ fuel at wot the car had as much as 11 degrees of timing difference. At the same point in the revs so that's not the solution really...
Yeah, there's a crap load of other adjustments they can make that we don't see. One of them is something like; when you tromp on it going WOT, the ECU initially retards timing by 10deg then advances. The tune cuts this to 5deg, hence the increased throttle response we have. That's an example, but you see what I mean. There is also more fuel adjustments they can make.

I hope to datalog this week and report back to Mike this week as well. I'm waiting for warmer temps.

I got to looking up pinging on the mach1registry.org website and there was some discussion about the MAF screen and how everybody removes it. I had removed this too, but I got to thinking, what of my pinging is due to an inaccurate air measurement? The lack of the MAF screen could definitively cause an inaccurate reading as the screen evens the air across the MAF sensor.

I decided to put my MAF screen back in my system last night. I had to rig it some to make sure the MAF housing corners don't break, but I got it in securely. I'll test this out for a while to see what happens. I'm still waiting a bit for the idle to relearn properly, but we'll see what happens.

Attachment 65044
Attachment 65043

Attachment 65045

Checkout the dirt line. That is where the shaker fitting connects. That tells how much air the shaker is really providing. It's more than people think.
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