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Old 10-21-2012, 12:03 AM   #1
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Injectors.

Does anyone know what size pink top injectors are?
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:18 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1lowGT
Does anyone know what size pink top injectors are?
19lb
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:42 AM   #3
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That's what I thought I was at a meet and they didn't think my car was stock besides cai and cat back because I ran against a 95 gt with heads and cams **** and they were surprised and immediately made excuses. But anyway. Thanks though
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:27 AM   #4
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The pink (lavender) injectors are 21 lb/h, they were used in the 2V engines from late 2002 through 2004. The 19 lb/h injectors are orange.

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New ride (7/1/2013) 1998 Mercedes SL500-5.0L 32V VVT 326/347 HP/tq
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:47 AM   #5
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Well what is stock. Because I haven't done anything to the injectors and my cousin has same year and same injectors
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2003 GT - full bolts ons, suspension, and drag radials
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:27 PM   #6
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Well what is stock. Because I haven't done anything to the injectors and my cousin has same year and same injectors
pink and orange on GT's on my 98 cobra they are like a pinkish redish color


I have a set of Ford Racing 30's that are used for sale if anyone needs some.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:34 PM   #7
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I will try to post a picture maybe tomorrow and see what you all think
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:09 PM   #8
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Well what is stock. Because I haven't done anything to the injectors and my cousin has same year and same injectors
I thought 19,,but not positive
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:13 PM   #9
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That's what I thought. But he insisted that they were bigger. He might be right but idk.
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2003 GT - full bolts ons, suspension, and drag radials
1998 cummins - 150hp injectors | FASS fuel kit | 4" straight pipe | 5" lift | BHAF | 20" wheels | edge juice w/ attitude | built auto trans with stall | closing in on 900tq | bigger turbo soon..

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Old 10-26-2012, 02:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1lowGT View Post
Well what is stock. Because I haven't done anything to the injectors and my cousin has same year and same injectors
From my previous post: The pink (lavender) injectors are 21 lb/h, they were used in the 2V engines from late 2002 through 2004.



They are Bosch 0-280-150-561 as shown above, rated for 22.0 lb/h at 3 bar (43.5 psi).

from Stan Weiss' site: (click here)


However because Ford operates them at 40 psi that rating is downgraded according to this formula:



sqrt(40 psi/43.5 psi) * 22.0 lb/h = 21.1 lb/h
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Steeda UDPs, Ralco flywheel, RAM HDX clutch, 3.73s, 262 rwHP/305 lb-ft.

New ride (7/1/2013) 1998 Mercedes SL500-5.0L 32V VVT 326/347 HP/tq
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:25 AM   #11
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This may be more than anyone wants to know, nonetheless:

Some further info regarding Ford's change from the 19 lb/h (orange) to the 21 lb/h (pink) injectors.

In 1999 Ford ran into issue with the production Cobra's not producing the claimed 320 fwHP, some reportedly down by as much as 30 HP. They halted 1999 MY production and there was no 2000 MY Cobra in the US. This was a real "black-eye" for Ford and they began a lengthy review of their claims for all engines. In this review it was found that the 19 lb/h injectors in the 2V engine (same as used with the 225 fwHP non-PI engines) were only marginally capable of supporting the PI engine's claimed 260 fwHP. The 21 lb/h injectors were quietly introduced into the late 2002 MY production.

To support 260 fwHP 19 lb/h injectors have to run at a 85 to 90% duty cycle, I.e. near flat out, higher than is desirable. The 21 lb/h units only need to run at 80%, a rule of thumb design limit. This is why the New-Edge GTs with the pink injectors, dead stock, will delivery 3-5 rwHP more on a dyno--usually coming in around 220 rwHP versus 215 to 218 for the 19 lb/h equipped engines.

It is also why they respond better to a custom tune. When Ford changed to the larger injectors they did not change the injector parameters (low and high slopes) in the tune.

Here are the injector scalars from a 2000 RVAFA.NUX2 tune:


and from a 2003 RYAF1.XSH2 tune:


Note that the low and high slope values are the same, even though the 2000 came with 19 lh/h injectors and the 2003 with 21 lb/h units. This is why the late 2002 through 2004 GTs run absolutely PIG rich at higher loads and WOT; the AFR on mine would dip into the high 10s (10.8:1) on hard acceleration and fall on it's face.

I corrected this by changing the slopes as shown below, gaining 16 peak rwHP (220 to 236) on a dead stock engine with no other changes (except dumping the silly CAI the PO had installed¹):


My last mod, because I had modded/tuned my way to 252 rwHP, was to install FRPP 24 lb/h injectors (the 21s were running 88% duty cycle)--using these tune parameters:


This and some further tweaking gained another 10 rwHP, to 262/305 rwHP/lb-ft...

--------------------------------------------------
¹ - The previous owner of my '03 had installed a silly cheap "fenderwell" CAI, fortunately he had saved the stock airbox and tube which are as good as or better than any after market intake.
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SOLD! - 2003 GT, UPR X, FRPP 24lb/h, Magnaflow, PP 70mm TB & plenum, Delta Force tuned,
Steeda UDPs, Ralco flywheel, RAM HDX clutch, 3.73s, 262 rwHP/305 lb-ft.

New ride (7/1/2013) 1998 Mercedes SL500-5.0L 32V VVT 326/347 HP/tq
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:48 AM   #12
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So could I change to #24's? Do I need a tune for them? Will mine run better with em?
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:26 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mathew r Wright View Post
So could I change to #24's? Do I need a tune for them? Will mine run better with em?
You will absolutely need a tune to run the 24 lb/h injectors--otherwise the engine will run quite rich.

However you need a tune even on a dead stock New-Edge GT.

As to "will it run better". If by that you mean will it produce more horsepower then the answer is yes (with that new tune)...
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SOLD! - 2003 GT, UPR X, FRPP 24lb/h, Magnaflow, PP 70mm TB & plenum, Delta Force tuned,
Steeda UDPs, Ralco flywheel, RAM HDX clutch, 3.73s, 262 rwHP/305 lb-ft.

New ride (7/1/2013) 1998 Mercedes SL500-5.0L 32V VVT 326/347 HP/tq
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Old 05-28-2014, 02:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffyk View Post
This may be more than anyone wants to know, nonetheless:

Some further info regarding Ford's change from the 19 lb/h (orange) to the 21 lb/h (pink) injectors.

In 1999 Ford ran into issue with the production Cobra's not producing the claimed 320 fwHP, some reportedly down by as much as 30 HP. They halted 1999 MY production and there was no 2000 MY Cobra in the US. This was a real "black-eye" for Ford and they began a lengthy review of their claims for all engines. In this review it was found that the 19 lb/h injectors in the 2V engine (same as used with the 225 fwHP non-PI engines) were only marginally capable of supporting the PI engine's claimed 260 fwHP. The 21 lb/h injectors were quietly introduced into the late 2002 MY production.

To support 260 fwHP 19 lb/h injectors have to run at a 85 to 90% duty cycle, I.e. near flat out, higher than is desirable. The 21 lb/h units only need to run at 80%, a rule of thumb design limit. This is why the New-Edge GTs with the pink injectors, dead stock, will delivery 3-5 rwHP more on a dyno--usually coming in around 220 rwHP versus 215 to 218 for the 19 lb/h equipped engines.

It is also why they respond better to a custom tune. When Ford changed to the larger injectors they did not change the injector parameters (low and high slopes) in the tune.

Here are the injector scalars from a 2000 RVAFA.NUX2 tune:


and from a 2003 RYAF1.XSH2 tune:


Note that the low and high slope values are the same, even though the 2000 came with 19 lh/h injectors and the 2003 with 21 lb/h units. This is why the late 2002 through 2004 GTs run absolutely PIG rich at higher loads and WOT; the AFR on mine would dip into the high 10s (10.8:1) on hard acceleration and fall on it's face.

I corrected this by changing the slopes as shown below, gaining 16 peak rwHP (220 to 236) on a dead stock engine with no other changes (except dumping the silly CAI the PO had installed¹):


My last mod, because I had modded/tuned my way to 252 rwHP, was to install FRPP 24 lb/h injectors (the 21s were running 88% duty cycle)--using these tune parameters:


This and some further tweaking gained another 10 rwHP, to 262/305 rwHP/lb-ft...

--------------------------------------------------
¹ - The previous owner of my '03 had installed a silly cheap "fenderwell" CAI, fortunately he had saved the stock airbox and tube which are as good as or better than any after market intake.

Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but I've been studying up on this subject for a tune I'm working on. These darn pink injectors seem to me a bit of a mystery. Cliff, you got a lot of things right, but there are a few mysteries here.

First off, I wouldn't trust Stan Weiss' website. I only say that because every single time I have compared his data to known good injector characterization data, his site has always been kinda close, but not correct. And such is the case again today.

My data comes from the Bosch Injector Data .xls file, which seems to be very accurate. It does take a lot of converting to get the flow numbers into a useful condition for gasoline and at the right pressure though.

Looking for a difference between pink and yellow (orange) injectors, I just can't find any. The Bosch data shows them to be identical, as does the Ford data. The spray patterns are the same, cone angle, everything. The only thing I was wondering was if there was a difference at the tip.

I will also add that these 99-04 injectors seem to be rated at 40 PSI instead of the usual 39.15. And then to further twist things, Ford's injector pressure vs Air Charge temp table seems to bump them up to a minimum of 45 PSI. For comparison purposes, this isn't important, because the hi slope multiplier is set to 1.00 at 40, meaning Ford must have flowed them at 40, not the usual 39.15. But the actual commanded pressure probably never drops below 45, which means the math works like this:

Hi Slope: 0.00532007217407227 lbs per second @ 40 PSI
That's 19.152259826660172 lbs per hour @ 40 PSI
That's 20.314039197717148291757297473647 lbs per hour @ 45 PSI

Or 20.314 for short, @ 45 PSI. Most injectors, when comparing across brands, are actually measured at 43.5, so I'll give that figure too...

19.9726 lbs per hour @ 43.5 PSI

I'm yet to find anything that indicates these flow 21 lb/hr, unless you jack pressure up even further...

23.062 lbs per hour @ 58 PSI

Now, let's look at the Bosch data for this injector (Bosch # 0280150561). The Bosch data says it flows 18.902 lb/hr at 270 kPa (39.15 PSI). But that's using heptane for a test fluid. According to Bosch's conversions, along with a standard conversion from cc to lb/hr of 10.5:1, that works out to...

19.897 lbs per hour @ 39.15 PSI. But this should actually be 40 PSI in this case, so that number converts to 20.112 roughly, at 40 PSI.

I don't really expect that all my conversions are perfect. The Bernoulli equation itself is not perfect. And Ford flowed specific sets of injectors, not the same ones that Bosch flowed. So I can deal with some imperfections between the Bosch data and the Ford data. But in this case, neither data supports that the Pink injectors flow 21 lb/hr.
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