19lb vs 21lb injectors - Mustang Evolution

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Old 10-31-2012, 06:17 PM   #1
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19lb vs 21lb injectors

Hello I'm sure this has been ask a 1000 times but the search on my iPhone isn't narrowing it down. I have a 02 gt with full bolt ons. I know early 02 came with 19 late 02 came with 21. Is it worth upgrading to the 21 plus the matching maf sensor.?
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:33 PM   #2
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If you plan upgrades like FI, then go 24s. You will need a tune to use them though. Staying NA? Use the 19s. Depends on up grades like head swap or FI.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:30 PM   #3
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No .. If your gnna upgrade go 30 and MAF.. Plus dyno tune
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:41 PM   #4
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The 21 lb/h injectors were used in the late 2002 through 2004 GTs, and they are a viable upgrade for earlier engines--however without a custom tune they will do nothing, as is true for any New-Edge GT mod except opening up the exhaust.



They are Bosch 0-280-150-561 as shown above, rated for 22.0 lb/h at 3 bar (43.5 psi).

from Stan Weiss' site: (click here)


However because Ford operates them at 40 psi that rating is downgraded according to this formula:



sqrt(40 psi/43.5 psi) * 22.0 lb/h = 21.1 lb/h

In 1999 reviewers and owners found that production Cobra's were not producing the claimed 320 fwHP, some reportedly down by as much as 30 HP. They halted 1999 MY production and there was no 2000 MY Cobra in the US.

This was a real "black-eye" for Ford and they began a lengthy review of the HP claims for all engines. In this review it was found that the 19 lb/h injectors in the 2V engine (same as used with the 225 fwHP non-PI engines) were only marginally capable of supporting the PI engine's claimed 260 fwHP. The 21 lb/h injectors were quietly introduced into the late 2002 MY production.

There were however no changes made to the basic tune when this was done which makes the late-'02 to '04 GTs run PIG rich at higher loads and WOT.

This said however the 21 lb/h injectors will let the GT engine develop it's rated HP, with another 12-15 rwHP available with just a simple custom tune--the basic stuff that all mail-order and email tunes do. Optimal injectors for a bolt-on 2V are 24 lb/h units. With an appropriate tune and other mods (mostly exhaust, upper plenum and TB) they will flatten the torque curve beyond 5200 rpm and increase peak HP and let the engine pull strongly right up to the rev-limiter.

Bottom line--moving to the 21 lb/h injectors, or if you have them, requires a tune to get the most from them. Without re-tuning you are wasting your $$ and time, there is nothing to be gained...
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:29 AM   #5
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Go 30
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:49 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffyk
The 21 lb/h injectors were used in the late 2002 through 2004 GTs, and they are a viable upgrade for earlier engines--however without a custom tune they will do nothing, as is true for any New-Edge GT mod except opening up the exhaust.

They are Bosch 0-280-150-561 as shown above, rated for 22.0 lb/h at 3 bar (43.5 psi).

from Stan Weiss' site: (click here)

However because Ford operates them at 40 psi that rating is downgraded according to this formula:

sqrt(40 psi/43.5 psi) * 22.0 lb/h = 21.1 lb/h

In 1999 reviewers and owners found that production Cobra's were not producing the claimed 320 fwHP, some reportedly down by as much as 30 HP. They halted 1999 MY production and there was no 2000 MY Cobra in the US.

This was a real "black-eye" for Ford and they began a lengthy review of the HP claims for all engines. In this review it was found that the 19 lb/h injectors in the 2V engine (same as used with the 225 fwHP non-PI engines) were only marginally capable of supporting the PI engine's claimed 260 fwHP. The 21 lb/h injectors were quietly introduced into the late 2002 MY production.

There were however no changes made to the basic tune when this was done which makes the late-'02 to '04 GTs run PIG rich at higher loads and WOT.

This said however the 21 lb/h injectors will let the GT engine develop it's rated HP, with another 12-15 rwHP available with just a simple custom tune--the basic stuff that all mail-order and email tunes do. Optimal injectors for a bolt-on 2V are 24 lb/h units. With an appropriate tune and other mods (mostly exhaust, upper plenum and TB) they will flatten the torque curve beyond 5200 rpm and increase peak HP and let the engine pull strongly right up to the rev-limiter.

Bottom line--moving to the 21 lb/h injectors, or if you have them, requires a tune to get the most from them. Without re-tuning you are wasting your $$ and time, there is nothing to be gained...
Hey thank u for all that info. I've got the sct w/ bama tunes would that work ?
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:41 PM   #7
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So if I did install these 21 lb with a new maf and had it tuned I "might" gain a little?

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 AM ----------

So would it be a better investment to install an off road pipe? Vs the bigger injectors?
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:54 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by 02utahgt View Post
So if I did install these 21 lb with a new maf and had it tuned I "might" gain a little?

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 AM ----------

So would it be a better investment to install an off road pipe? Vs the bigger injectors?
You will gain power at high loads (hard acceleration) from 4500 rpm up--not a lot but a solid 5-7 rwHP, where it can actually be used...

You do not need a new MAF. The MAF will continue to report how much air is being ingested, same as ever; the new tune will know that the injectors are now 21 lb/h units and do the appropriate math to control the injector pulse width and this AFR. The stock 80 mm MAF can support up to 360 rwHP.

The only MAFS that are "calibrated" to a specific injector size are also "calibrated" to work with a specific stock tune--they are a kludge left over from the early days of EFI when the tune could not be changed easily, or at all on some engines.

Read more about "calibrated" MAFs here...
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffyk

You will gain power at high loads (hard acceleration) from 4500 rpm up--not a lot but a solid 5-7 rwHP, where it can actually be used...

You do not need a new MAF. The MAF will continue to report how much air is being ingested, same as ever; the new tune will know that the injectors are now 21 lb/h units and do the appropriate math to control the injector pulse width and this AFR. The stock 80 mm MAF can support up to 360 rwHP.

The only MAFS that are "calibrated" to a specific injector size are also "calibrated" to work with a specific stock tune--they are a kludge left over from the early days of EFI when the tune could not be changed easily, or at all on some engines.

Read more about "calibrated" MAFs here...
Thanks......
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:16 PM   #10
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So if u could get a set for $50 with 25,000 miles on them would you go ahead and install them?
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:04 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by 02utahgt View Post
So if u could get a set for $50 with 25,000 miles on them would you go ahead and install them?
Yes, but once again there will be no power gain unless your tune is changed to lean out the mix at high loads and WOT.

You will need to disconnect the battery for 5-7 minutes to clear the KAM to force learning of new fuel trims. In fact the battery should be disconnected any time you are working on anything electrical...
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffyk
The 21 lb/h injectors were used in the late 2002 through 2004 GTs, and they are a viable upgrade for earlier engines--however without a custom tune they will do nothing, as is true for any New-Edge GT mod except opening up the exhaust.

They are Bosch 0-280-150-561 as shown above, rated for 22.0 lb/h at 3 bar (43.5 psi).

from Stan Weiss' site: (click here)

However because Ford operates them at 40 psi that rating is downgraded according to this formula:

sqrt(40 psi/43.5 psi) * 22.0 lb/h = 21.1 lb/h

In 1999 reviewers and owners found that production Cobra's were not producing the claimed 320 fwHP, some reportedly down by as much as 30 HP. They halted 1999 MY production and there was no 2000 MY Cobra in the US.

This was a real "black-eye" for Ford and they began a lengthy review of the HP claims for all engines. In this review it was found that the 19 lb/h injectors in the 2V engine (same as used with the 225 fwHP non-PI engines) were only marginally capable of supporting the PI engine's claimed 260 fwHP. The 21 lb/h injectors were quietly introduced into the late 2002 MY production.

There were however no changes made to the basic tune when this was done which makes the late-'02 to '04 GTs run PIG rich at higher loads and WOT.

This said however the 21 lb/h injectors will let the GT engine develop it's rated HP, with another 12-15 rwHP available with just a simple custom tune--the basic stuff that all mail-order and email tunes do. Optimal injectors for a bolt-on 2V are 24 lb/h units. With an appropriate tune and other mods (mostly exhaust, upper plenum and TB) they will flatten the torque curve beyond 5200 rpm and increase peak HP and let the engine pull strongly right up to the rev-limiter.

Bottom line--moving to the 21 lb/h injectors, or if you have them, requires a tune to get the most from them. Without re-tuning you are wasting your $$ and time, there is nothing to be gained...
Pinks are 19s
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAS97GT

Pinks are 19s
Lol orange are 19s Pink are 21s
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:30 AM   #14
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Pinks are 19s
They are not, as I explained in detail above...
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:32 PM   #15
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injector options?

i have a 99 gt. i have the accu fab plenum and tb. i have the ford racing intake that i just installed which i dont think there will be any increase in hp, but mine was leaking so i upgreded. i noticed my pintel caps were broken on 2 injectors, so i was thinking bout replacing filters, o-rings, and pintle caps on all of them but then thought about upgrading to 21 or 24lb injectors. whats your thought on this? dont have tuner or air itake but was thinking bout getting bama tune or diablo and airraid. may get h pipes soon also. so should i rebuild my 19s or go for 21s or 24s?
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Old 07-06-2014, 02:48 AM   #16
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Easy answer: 19pounders are capable all the way to about 600 HP. If you got some serious boors and want some real fit then increase the fuel by adding more fuel. That means that your too lean and can't got enough gas. If not lay off and pad go for fuel economy all the way to 500+HP. bunch of formulas,on the web. Go check me out,and learn.
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Old 07-06-2014, 03:34 AM   #17
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Easy answer: 19pounders are capable all the way to about 600 HP. If you got some serious boors and want some real fit then increase the fuel by adding more fuel. That means that your too lean and can't got enough gas. If not lay off and pad go for fuel economy all the way to 500+HP. bunch of formulas,on the web. Go check me out,and learn.
The small part of this post that I can understand is COMPLETELY wrong so I'm just going to assume that the whole post is just gibberish.


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Old 07-06-2014, 04:40 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by LAS97GT View Post
Easy answer: 19pounders are capable all the way to about 600 HP. If you got some serious boors and want some real fit then increase the fuel by adding more fuel. That means that your too lean and can't got enough gas. If not lay off and pad go for fuel economy all the way to 500+HP. bunch of formulas,on the web. Go check me out,and learn.
This is by far the dumbest thing I have seen on here in awhile. Please do not give advice, you clearly have no clue on wtf you are saying.
But humor me, how do you think 19 lb injectors are good for 600hp????



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Old 07-06-2014, 08:43 AM   #19
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I thought the higher lb injectors like 72 for superchargers produce more hp not the other way around . And also isn't the stock one 24 lb so why would you downgrade ?


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Old 07-06-2014, 01:31 PM   #20
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I thought the higher lb injectors like 72 for superchargers produce more hp not the other way around . And also isn't the stock one 24 lb so why would you downgrade ?


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Higher lb injectors will flow more fuel, allowing for more air to be added to the mixture, and therefore more power to be made. Factory 96-00 4.6 mustangs got 19 lb injectors, in 01 Ford switched to 21 lb injectors due to the 19 lb injectors being close to max duty cycle at full throttle. The 24lb injectors came factory on 96-98 Cobras, and possibly the 99 and 01 as well but I'm not sure on that part.
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Old 07-06-2014, 01:40 PM   #21
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Higher lb injectors will flow more fuel, allowing for more air to be added to the mixture, and therefore more power to be made. Factory 96-00 4.6 mustangs got 19 lb injectors, in 01 Ford switched to 21 lb injectors due to the 19 lb injectors being close to max duty cycle at full throttle. The 24lb injectors came factory on 96-98 Cobras, and possibly the 99 and 01 as well but I'm not sure on that part.
I think, like Cliffy said, that the 21# injectors must have been introduced in the 2002 model year. All of the 01 Bullitts came with 19# injectors...
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Old 07-06-2014, 01:48 PM   #22
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I think, like Cliffy said, that the 21# injectors must have been introduced in the 2002 model year. All of the 01 Bullitts came with 19# injectors...
Hmm I thought it was the early 01 got the 19s and the windsor and late 01 got the 21s with the Romeo engine if I remember right. Guess I should have specified that in my post
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:44 PM   #23
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Easy answer: 19pounders are capable all the way to about 600 HP. If you got some serious boors and want some real fit then increase the fuel by adding more fuel. That means that your too lean and can't got enough gas. If not lay off and pad go for fuel economy all the way to 500+HP. bunch of formulas,on the web. Go check me out,and learn.


[QUOTE=LAS97GT;2041423]Easy answer: ain't nothing come out right is there a way to control auto complete/edit after I hit reply? Anyways, the issue is fuel economy. I happen to be running 24 pounders where I only need 19 pounders for the same result. Problem is paying for a dyno tune. If I upgrade to a super charger I'll definitely need more fuel to reach max performance.

Hope this posts correctly.


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Old 08-26-2014, 09:02 PM   #24
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Ford changed the injector size in mid 2001, prior to mid 2001 19lb injectors (orange) was stock, and mid 2001 through 2004 was 21lb injectors (pink).
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:11 PM   #25
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Ford changed the injector size in mid 2001, prior to mid 2001 the 19lb injectors (orange), and after mid 2001 21lb injectors (pink).

Yeah, I know. It threw me off for a bit when I saw the hot pink...maybe that's why I have 24s. Anyways, I get off the line with 283 RWHP nowadays. If it weren't for alimony and more I'd be boosting down in Louisiana. Headed to Gilliam Raceway near Shreeveport this Friday to see if I can still pull 14s on a natural aspirated motor-catted. Pretty hot down here so I'm looking at getting a water methanol injection system to keep temps down.


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Old 08-26-2014, 09:17 PM   #26
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I just posted that response as I kept reading post after post that the injectors changed in 2002, but it was mid 2001, along with the water pump, trans, shifter and a few other items not worth mentioning.
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:21 PM   #27
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Then why did my Bullitt get all of the "upgrades" except for the 21lb injectors?
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:26 PM   #28
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It depended on your build date for which injector you got. But in mid 2001 was the change over date to 21lb injectors. And Ford nor anyone else for that fact can give a defining date of when that happened. Mid year usually falls in line with January of any given year, but could fall with in January to Mar on a given year. As 2001 production line started in 2000.
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:30 PM   #29
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Probably, they changed over to 21's after they used up the inventory of 19 lb injectors.
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:35 PM   #30
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Probably, they changed over to 21's after they used up the inventory of 19 lb injectors.
That is a likely theory, most all manufacturers will use up their stock before starting a new assy line or part change. Unless it was a safety concern that needed immediate change. But any online site asks you to verify your build date when it comes to 2001 Stangs for anything that has to do with engine, trans, and shifters, and a few other things they sell. And I have even seen the item description state call us before you order to confirm the right part.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:27 PM   #31
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That is a likely theory, most all manufacturers will use up their stock before starting a new assy line or part change. Unless it was a safety concern that needed immediate change. But any online site asks you to verify your build date when it comes to 2001 Stangs for anything that has to do with engine, trans, and shifters, and a few other things they sell. And I have even seen the item description state call us before you order to confirm the right part.

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