Achieving 70% inj. duty cycle - Mustang Evolution

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Old 02-27-2013, 08:21 PM   #1
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I've read some article somewhere stating something like a 60-70% percent duty cycle being ideal for longevity and atomization.. I can achieve this by cranking up my psi and tuning for the next size up fuel injector.

The only thing I could think of is the fuel enters at a higher psi than an actual 24lb injector and wouldn't fog (atomize) as efficiently...

So I could set my 19lb (21) to 55psi and tune for 24lbers and achieve a 60% duty cycle at the same time?

Anyone? Let it rip!

P.s. I ran out of dough, green backs, skins... and have a big n/a cam and bolt ons to supply it and a factory sct tune... otherwise I'd upgrade the injectors and dump a dyno tune it..my car goes silent under heavy throttle... gap is set at .32 step hotter, msd Edis and 8mm wires 96. Gt aode with a cobra dohc swapped in... imrc removed but slides are there.. full exhaust, 80mm maf cai, fuel reg, 250lph fp.

The more I crank up my fuel psi, the earlier my car goes silent in rpm range under heavy throttle
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:17 PM   #2
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:28 AM   #3
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:36 AM   #4
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:40 AM   #5
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the more psi the more fuel and the more air thats needed, the trick is the air.... you need more of it else its just going to be rich.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:58 AM   #6
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Well, I have no imrc plates. Just left the slides in... had no way to control it anyway, it'll help raise cylinder psi up top or down low if I go s/c... planning on gettin a 3.90 or 4.10 on a set of 18s anyways....I wouldn't need a bigger tb or maf when I move up to 24lb... i have the red tops out of my for gt now
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:09 AM   #7
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I can't do much about how rich it runs, the pcm won't let me by... it runs nice and rich until I've used the car a few times.


That's with my car tuned with the handheld for 19# (21#) at 53 psi (new flow rate would be around 24#) it just cuts out, but it even cuts out down at 32-40psi just with more throttle and a thousand rpm or so higher... on two different fp's, a walbro 190 & aeromotive 250 or 255 ... I want to tune it for 24s... return style... there like a 2 or 3% difference in fuel trims on each bank
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:24 AM   #8
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I know the injectors would run cooler at a much lower duty cycle, most of the line in our return cars are aluminum, heavy duty hose at the tank, new hardcore hose in the tank lol... and even up at my aftermarket rails with brass fittings.. so it's not a question of bursting...what about the injector slides at the nozzle?
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:57 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Smokum281 View Post
I've read some article somewhere stating something like a 60-70% percent duty cycle being ideal for longevity and atomization.. I can achieve this by cranking up my psi and tuning for the next size up fuel injector.

The only thing I could think of is the fuel enters at a higher psi than an actual 24lb injector and wouldn't fog (atomize) as efficiently...

So I could set my 19lb (21) to 55psi and tune for 24lbers and achieve a 60% duty cycle at the same time?
Running the orange 19 lb/h injectors at 55 psi makes them effectively 22.3 lb/h injectors, operating the pink 21 lb/h injectors at 55 psi would make them 24.6 lb/h units.

Here is the formula for recalculating capacity as fuel pressure is changed:



(55/40)^0.5 = 1.173

19 * 1.173 = 22.3

Quote:

Anyone? Let it rip!

P.s. I ran out of dough, green backs, skins... and have a big n/a cam and bolt ons to supply it and a factory sct tune... otherwise I'd upgrade the injectors and dump a dyno tune it..my car goes silent under heavy throttle... gap is set at .32 step hotter, msd Edis and 8mm wires 96. Gt aode with a cobra dohc swapped in... imrc removed but slides are there.. full exhaust, 80mm maf cai, fuel reg, 250lph fp.

The more I crank up my fuel psi, the earlier my car goes silent in rpm range under heavy throttle
You need to get a wideband O² system on there and monitor the AFR when the engine bogs.

What tune are you running (the stock GT tune or did you install the Cobra PCM as well)?

What MAF are you running?
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:01 AM   #10
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Nah, it's the Gt pcm ddx3, 80mm maf, 24lb sensor, but the sct is telling my car I have 19# inj, out of the box sct 93 octane tune for a gt... i can't remember if this is sequential or batch fire... cause it sounds like it's batch firing at idle no codes except for th evap and egr is detecting high voltage. Evap is just deleted. Egr is shut off. Everything egr related is not there. Sensors, tuBing, diaphragm. I don't want hot air or soot in my engine.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:15 AM   #11
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I know I need a tune but that should only be necessary to make power. It should run fine on its own. And it's not. It seems like a vac leak at idle, but there aren't any :/
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Smokum281 View Post
Nah, it's the Gt pcm ddx3, 80mm maf, 24lb sensor, but the sct is telling my car I have 19# inj, out of the box sct 93 octane tune for a gt... i can't remember if this is sequential or batch fire... cause it sounds like it's batch firing at idle no codes except for th evap and egr is detecting high voltage. Evap is just deleted. Egr is shut off. Everything egr related is not there. Sensors, tuBing, diaphragm. I don't want hot air or soot in my engine.
Actually the EGR system reduces combustion chamber temperatures (already burned fuel cannot burn again). This reduces NOx emissions and allows ignition timing to be advanced a bit for improved performance and fuel economy. However it is only active at low loads and lower engine speeds so it is not a performance related system whether its working or not.

The EECV PCM fires the injectors sequentially.

Your engine is likely running very rich in open loop mode as the stock tune is set for 19 lb/h injectors and your are effectively (at 55 psi) running 22.3 lb/h units. The PCM will calculate an injector pulse width based upon the target AFR from the Stabilised Open Loop Fuel table, the airflow reported by the MAF, and the fuel injector capacity which it believes to be 19 lb/h.

However the resulting fuel delivery will be 17.4% (22.3/19) more then required--I.e. the engine will be running quite rich, and is likely bogging from that. For example if the desired AFR is 12.4:1 however 17.4% more fuel that required is being injected then the resulting AFR would be 12.4/1.174 = 10.5:1.

The short term fuel trims will be messed up as well (pulling fuel to meet the 14.7:1 closed-loop target AFR.

The short story is you cannot raise the fuel pressure without altering the injector slopes in the tune, and expect the engine to run properly.

[edit]

Oh, one other thing I have run into before.

The CDAN4.DDX3 stock tune (actually the whole CDAN4 series) has a wacked out MAF transfer function that is only accurate to 4.0V output. This is roughly 450 cfm, which is what would be just about the limit for a non-PI 2V. The maximum amount of air a 281 in³ engine could possibly draw at 6000 rpm in 490 cfm. At a VE (Volumetric Efficiency) of 85% (perhaps too high for the NPI engine) that would be just 420 cfm.

So making the MAF function only accurate to 4.0 V (450 cfm) was all that was needed...

[/edit]
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:24 PM   #13
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Awesome info! Should I ditch my pcm and look for a mark viii one to hook up with the 4r07w? And put my fuel psi back to 41 vacuum off? I have an LLX2(if I'm correct) but it needs a reflash, don't have the file.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:30 PM   #14
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:36 PM   #15
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:40 PM   #16
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Awesome info! Should I ditch my pcm and look for a mark viii one to hook up with the 4r07w? And put my fuel psi back to 41 vacuum off? I have an LLX2(if I'm correct) but it needs a reflash, don't have the file.
I am confused, do you have a Cobra engine or a Mark VIII engine?

What injectors are you running, the stock GT orange ones?

Returning the fuel pressure to 40 psi would likely help, although the 19 lb/h injectors are too small for the DOHC engine--you need at least 24's, and a tune setup up to operate them properly...
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:51 PM   #17
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I have a 96 Gt 4r07w with a 96-98 cobra dohc and red top bosch injectors running on my stock Gt ddx3 pcm... I have A llx1 pcm sitting here for a 4v auto mustang but its corrupted and needs a reflash..
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Old 02-28-2013, 04:39 PM   #18
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Actually clutching, the one I have laying around is a wwx2... i have a way to trash it but no file
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Old 02-28-2013, 04:53 PM   #19
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Those may be 30 lb/h injectors, do you know the Bosch part number. If they are there is no way they will work properly with the stock GT tune even at 40 psi--at 55 psi they were the equivalent of 35 lb/h injectors.
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Old 02-28-2013, 04:55 PM   #20
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I googled the part numbers and it came back as 21#... and my short terms were 0
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:04 PM   #21
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:12 PM   #22
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I googled the part numbers and it came back as 21#... and my short terms were 0
Are they red or lavender (dark pink) like this?

Mustang GT late 2002 through 2004 21 lb/h injector:


Do you remember the part number? I ask because there is a ton of misinformation out there re: Bosch injectors, I have a list I have compiled from a bunch of sources and have verified most of the information for injectors used in the Mustangs...

Likely they are 21 lb/h when operated at the standard 3 bar (43.5 psi) rating pressure, but when run at Ford's 39.15 psi they become nominal 19 lb/h (actually 19.9) units.

---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 PM ----------

Yup, those are the "pink" 21 lb/h injectors, rated at 22 lb/h at 43.5 psi...

---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------

They should run OK, but a bit rich, with the CDAN4.DDX3 tune--at 40 psi...
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:18 PM   #23
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f0te-9f593-d9b

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ----------

Ok, so I'm cutting out halfway through my power band cause I'm only getting 4volts to my maf? I have a 24lb 80mm maf, but this crap sct thing is telling my computer I have 19
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:07 PM   #24
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f0te-9f593-d9b

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ----------

Ok, so I'm cutting out halfway through my power band cause I'm only getting 4volts to my maf? I have a 24lb 80mm maf, but this crap sct thing is telling my computer I have 19
I suspect what is happening is that the AFR is going pig rich at some point, likely because of the bad MAF curve in the CDAN4 tune. You need to get a wideband sensor system on there and see what the AFRs are like.

A MAF can output a signal all the way up to the battery voltage with enough air flowing through it. The PCM however will only accept and interpret up to 5.0 V. It does this by measuring the MAF output voltage and then looking up that value in the tune's MAF transfer function to see how much air flow that voltage represents. If a perfect world the values in the MAF function would be the same as the actual amount of air flowing through the MAF, at the indicated voltage.

However the CDAN4.DDX3 tune has an incomplete MAF transfer function that is only accurate to 4.0 V, between there and 5.0 V the numbers go nuts and skyrocket. At 5.0 V, which should be around 2650 lb/h the CDAN4 MAF curve tells the PCM that 3500 lb/h is flowing--that's 833 cfm, more than most boosted 4.6 L engines need--and certainly more than is actually flowing.

Your MAF, with the 4V engine, is likely putting out more than 4.0V at WOT and higher engine speeds, and because the MAF transfer function in the tune is inaccurate the PCM believes crazy high amounts of air is coming in--it then calculates an injector pulse that delivers actual crazy amounts of fuel to go with the imaginary crazy amount of air. The result is a wildly rich mixture that probably won't even ignite (gasoline is not flammable until it is mixed with air, and even then in only a smallish range of ratios).

I have run into this before on boosted GTs using the CDAN4 strategy.

When you say you have a "24lb 80 mm maf", do you mean you have a so-called "calibrated" maf? Does it say "24 lb" somewhere on it, or is it just a '98/'99 Cobra MAF? If it is a "calibrated" MAF then you will have to find out its real transfer function before a tune can be created to use it--for more about calibrated MAFs, and why they suck, click here.

You are going to need a custom tune to make it run properly...
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:26 PM   #25
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Yeah, it's an 80mm housing, and whatever the sensor number is tells me it was in a 24lb injected car

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

Do u tune? I can datalog... seeing as ur a ford guy... this guy is willing to do it on the fly for 200 (he's a moonlighter)

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

But hes only familiar with gm
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:01 PM   #26
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Cliffyk, if it still cuts out at 40psi, would 35psi be the lowest I could go? The new flow rate would be 19.9lb @35psi... I dont know what my afr is with the sct 93 octane tune... but I do want to be rich... man... I should have stuck with fox bodies.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:32 AM   #27
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Yeah, it's an 80mm housing, and whatever the sensor number is tells me it was in a 24lb injected car
One thing needs to be clear if any good is to come of this discussion--there is no such thing as a MAF "calibrated", or otherwise designated to work with a specific injector capacity.

What there are are MAFs calibrated or designated to work with specific injectors AND a specific tune, usually a stock tune. As explained in my calibrated MAFs and why they suck article they are a kludge left over from EFI's infancy when tunes could not easily, or at all, be altered. Those days are long gone and "calibrated" MAFs serve no purpose on any system that can be flash programmed.

Back to your MAF. If it did indeed come from a vehicle that had 24 lb/h injectors it will not work with the stock '96 tune--no way, no how as it's actual transfer function will bear no resemblance to that in the tune.

Did the housing and the sensor come together as a package, or were they taken from separate assemblies?

Quote:

[/COLOR]Do u tune? I can datalog... seeing as ur a ford guy... this guy is willing to do it on the fly for 200 (he's a moonlighter)

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

But hes only familiar with gm
That is a decision for you to make...

Quote:
Cliffyk, if it still cuts out at 40psi, would 35psi be the lowest I could go? The new flow rate would be 19.9lb @35psi... I dont know what my afr is with the sct 93 octane tune... but I do want to be rich... man... I should have stuck with fox bodies.
The MAF is the most likely culprit, I thought you were running the stock '96 MAF. Between the different MAF and the wacky transfer function in the CDAN4 tune I am not surprised it is not running as it should.

The MAF's actual transfer function, and the transfer function in the tune need to be the same before worrying about fuel pressure and injector capacity. Also it is essential that you get a wideband O² system, without knowing what the AFR is you cannot begin to get this situation under control.

I would also recommend you get Greg Banish's book; Engine Management: Advanced Tuning so as to expand your knowledge of how modern EFI systems work, in particular the interaction between the MAF transfer function and injector capacity in mass air flow systems.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:48 AM   #28
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Yeah the maf housing and sensor were off a cobra... I have the sct programmed for 19s wouldn't that calibrate it all together? I'm just trying to do all in my power to get it running as good as possible as it's my ddaily driver... until I get the injectors and tune

And set my fuel psi down to 35 vac off.. so the 21# flow like 19#... and not go passed half throttle???

I was thinking... the pcmprobably couldnt correct pulse widths if I set my fpr at 55+/-psi and set it in the pcm for 24#
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:15 PM   #29
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Yeah the maf housing and sensor were off a cobra... I have the sct programmed for 19s wouldn't that calibrate it all together? I'm just trying to do all in my power to get it running as good as possible as it's my ddaily driver... until I get the injectors and tune

And set my fuel psi down to 35 vac off.. so the 21# flow like 19#... and not go passed half throttle???

I was thinking... the pcmprobably couldnt correct pulse widths if I set my fpr at 55+/-psi and set it in the pcm for 24#
The MAF transfer function in the stock '96 tune will not work with that MAF. You need to use the stock '96 MAF with the stock '96 tune. No amount of diddling with the fuel pressure or the injector size setting in the tune will correct that...
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:03 PM   #30
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FYI, what I thought was a valve lash issue on a different issue, ended up being bad injectors... don't know how many miles are on them but yeah.

Dieseling idle, light pulsating acceleration, 100rpm idle variation, slight buck/jerk on decel, fuel pressure gauge slightly flicking at idle, low rpm power loss. Dunno how it failed but, bullseye.

Injectors ticking loudly.
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