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Old 01-14-2014, 08:48 AM   #1
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Turbo Suggestions

The goal is 450, and I need to find a junkyard turbo (I can get the whole thing for $30 in a local yard), but that means I'm not going to find anything newer than about 2002. If that's too much, I'm willing to run the risk of an ebay vendor, I tend to have good luck with those. I was thinking the 16G Big from Mitz. Any suggestions for the lil' ol' 3.8?
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:56 AM   #2
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No offense but eBay turbo suck... My had bought one for his 87 5.0 and it was ****. And if you what a good turbo kit visit TMA they some great kits for sixxers
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:00 AM   #3
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Idk if this is on here but he has a TMA turbo and made a litte over 400HP
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:01 AM   #4
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No offense but eBay turbo suck... My had bought one for his 87 5.0 and it was ****. And if you what a good turbo kit visit TMA they some great kits for sixxers
No offense, but I did say junkyard turbo, and TMA is no longer in business, as far as I understand. Either way, I'm piecing a kit, not buying one. I've also heard of plenty of success stories with the ebay turbos.
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:09 AM   #5
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Non takin.
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:26 PM   #6
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Has anybody used a 16G big on their stang? How about one of the holsets?
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Old 01-14-2014, 04:12 PM   #7
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Has anybody used a 16G big on their stang? How about one of the holsets?
Most of the guys in here don't have any form of forced induction, let alone a pieced together turbo kit. The 16G is what came on the 4G63 Evo's right? I feel like a turbo that is easily maxed out by a 2.3l 4 banger with be way too small for a 3.8l. But I don't really know **** about turbo sizes. Do you happen to know what your engine efficiency is?
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:22 PM   #8
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Most of the guys in here don't have any form of forced induction, let alone a pieced together turbo kit. The 16G is what came on the 4G63 Evo's right? I feel like a turbo that is easily maxed out by a 2.3l 4 banger with be way too small for a 3.8l. But I don't really know **** about turbo sizes. Do you happen to know what your engine efficiency is?
It was also on the volvo S70s. It's not about the number of cylinders, or even the displacement, rather volume of air it moves. 30psi on a 2.3l engine will do, roughly, 15psi on a 4.8l engine, which some of those tuner guys actually run, but I'm not sure of all the details on their engines and which turbos are which, for that I'm asking.
Honestly, I don't have a clue. I've got ported heads on the intake side, ported lower, and a windstar intake, and larger roller rockers (1.73 instead of 1.5) so I can only assume at least 90%
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:44 PM   #9
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It was also on the volvo S70s. It's not about the number of cylinders, or even the displacement, rather volume of air it moves. 30psi on a 2.3l engine will do, roughly, 15psi on a 4.8l engine, which some of those tuner guys actually run, but I'm not sure of all the details on their engines and which turbos are which, for that I'm asking.
Honestly, I don't have a clue. I've got ported heads on the intake side, ported lower, and a windstar intake, and larger roller rockers (1.73 instead of 1.5) so I can only assume at least 90%
That makes sense

I just remember a buddy showing me all the math he did to help choose what turbo he was gonna run. Most guys I know don't bother doing the math to figure out what turbo is the best fit for their application. One example is a guy I work with has a GT35R on a 1.8l Integra pushing 4psi making 240whp sae while spooling at 6K. I can't remember the equation off the top of my head, but it'd be a good idea to find it, calculate your efficiency and then find the junkyard turbo that best fits that efficiency.

Edit: a Google search turned this up http://www.epa.gov/chp/basic/methods.html
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:30 PM   #10
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JDF is right iye.
There's a lot more to setting up a proper turbo system than going down to the wrecking yard and scrounging an old turbo that you "guesstimate" might do the trick.
A good turbo setup will have, both, the turbine and turbine housing, and, compressor and compressor housing, properly sized for the engine AND for what you want to accomplish with the engine. Specifically, to reduce "turbo lag" as much as possible.
Your wrecking yard turbo kit is by no means impossible and you and I think much the same...
I'd find a book on turbochargers and start reading up on what makes a turbo work correctly for the intended application..
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:57 PM   #11
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That makes sense

I just remember a buddy showing me all the math he did to help choose what turbo he was gonna run. Most guys I know don't bother doing the math to figure out what turbo is the best fit for their application. One example is a guy I work with has a GT35R on a 1.8l Integra pushing 4psi making 240whp sae while spooling at 6K. I can't remember the equation off the top of my head, but it'd be a good idea to find it, calculate your efficiency and then find the junkyard turbo that best fits that efficiency.

Edit: a Google search turned this up Methods for Calculating Efficiency | Combined Heat and Power Partnership | US EPA
I'm doing math, but there's two things I don't understand. The hot side, as in how the turbine works, which I need and all that, and the second is if I'm actually doing my math right. I've studied a little, that's why I'm here and with a suggestion.

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JDF is right iye.
There's a lot more to setting up a proper turbo system than going down to the wrecking yard and scrounging an old turbo that you "guesstimate" might do the trick.
A good turbo setup will have, both, the turbine and turbine housing, and, compressor and compressor housing, properly sized for the engine AND for what you want to accomplish with the engine. Specifically, to reduce "turbo lag" as much as possible.
Your wrecking yard turbo kit is by no means impossible and you and I think much the same...
I'd find a book on turbochargers and start reading up on what makes a turbo work correctly for the intended application..
I've looked into the holset hx35. Like I mentioned, the hot side I don't understand at all, and I'm concerned at 5200RPMs I'll be trying to push too much air past that turbine, but it's got the right compressor housing for my needs.
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:36 PM   #12
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I would think a hx35 would be to big ... I had one off a mid nineties Chevy diesil witch is a tad smaller and it was too much for my built 2.3 and it had a good port and polished head 5angle valve job and gutted upper intake and ported lower intake and running 23lbs of boost
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:55 PM   #13
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I would think a hx35 would be to big ... I had one off a mid nineties Chevy diesil witch is a tad smaller and it was too much for my built 2.3 and it had a good port and polished head 5angle valve job and gutted upper intake and ported lower intake and running 23lbs of boost
I have a built lower (minus the pistons) with a lower compression ratio than stock and 3.8l to fill... I agree that I think the holsets are a bit big, though.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:13 AM   #14
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If you could find a turbo Regal or Grand National... or a GMC Syclone or Typhoon... just sitting in wrecking yard, hell, you'd be in business.
I've seen some turbo Regals in the past.
Then, all of the hard calculations will already be done by the engineers at GM. All you have to do is find all of the parts and make them work on a Ford.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:36 AM   #15
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If you could find a turbo Regal or Grand National... or a GMC Syclone or Typhoon... just sitting in wrecking yard, hell, you'd be in business.
I've seen some turbo Regals in the past.
Then, all of the hard calculations will already be done by the engineers at GM. All you have to do is find all of the parts and make them work on a Ford.
but to 450HP?
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:02 AM   #16
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but to 450HP?
Haha.
You sure do ask a lot iye...
Probably not with the stock turbo.
But do some research on the vehicles that I mentioned. There were a lot of mods to get good numbers.
The Grand National was a 3.8l and the GMC's were 4.3l.
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:43 AM   #17
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Junkyard? eBay?

Are you serious? ..
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:45 AM   #18
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If your talking about you having a 3.8 wanting to make 450?
With just a cheap turbo kit, I'm sorry but you'll never see those numbers

Just save up and buy a GT
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:58 AM   #19
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Junkyard? eBay?

Are you serious? ..
You can find a decent Holset or Garrett or whatever in the JY sometimes off a wrecker or HD pickup truck or a set of small turbos to do a twin setup off a volvo or a supercoupe.

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If your talking about you having a 3.8 wanting to make 450?
With just a cheap turbo kit, I'm sorry but you'll never see those numbers

Just save up and buy a GT
Agreed, have fun blowing up that 3.8, not to mention the trans and the 7.5 rearend out back.

I'm sorry call me an elitist, if you want power and you aren't a 2011-up get a V8. The v6s prior to 2011 are terribad.
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Old 01-15-2014, 09:30 AM   #20
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If your talking about you having a 3.8 wanting to make 450?
With just a cheap turbo kit, I'm sorry but you'll never see those numbers

Just save up and buy a GT
I'm sorry, are you asking to get flamed, or just stupid? You realize how much power 3.8l can make? 450 HP is roughly 15PSI @ 90% efficiency. There are cars that, though different, can run in excess of 40PSI. I've already mentioned I built the lower end. I've had to rebuild the engine once. I'm not new to this 'modding game,' and I, and every other v6 out-there would appreciate it if you weren't trying to push a v8 down our throats. There's plenty of reasons not to get a v8.
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Old 01-15-2014, 09:32 AM   #21
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You can find a decent Holset or Garrett or whatever in the JY sometimes off a wrecker or HD pickup truck or a set of small turbos to do a twin setup off a volvo or a supercoupe.



Agreed, have fun blowing up that 3.8, not to mention the trans and the 7.5 rearend out back.

I'm sorry call me an elitist, if you want power and you aren't a 2011-up get a V8. The v6s prior to 2011 are terribad.
I have, as I said, forged internals, other than the piston. I also have an 8.8" rear. The transmission I'll drive till it goes, then do the work and put in the money for a tko600, and maybe from there I'll go up from 450.
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:59 AM   #22
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I'm doing math, but there's two things I don't understand. The hot side, as in how the turbine works, which I need and all that, and the second is if I'm actually doing my math right. I've studied a little, that's why I'm here and with a suggestion.



I've looked into the holset hx35. Like I mentioned, the hot side I don't understand at all, and I'm concerned at 5200RPMs I'll be trying to push too much air past that turbine, but it's got the right compressor housing for my needs.
What are you having troubles with about the hot side? I don't know that I will be able to answer your question but somebody else might.




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[/COLOR]

I'm sorry, are you asking to get flamed, or just stupid? You realize how much power 3.8l can make? 450 HP is roughly 15PSI @ 90% efficiency. There are cars that, though different, can run in excess of 40PSI. I've already mentioned I built the lower end. I've had to rebuild the engine once. I'm not new to this 'modding game,' and I, and every other v6 out-there would appreciate it if you weren't trying to push a v8 down our throats. There's plenty of reasons not to get a v8.
I will say this, you did post this in the 96-04 GT section so opinions may be biased
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:22 PM   #23
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What are you having troubles with about the hot side? I don't know that I will be able to answer your question but somebody else might.

I will say this, you did post this in the 96-04 GT section so opinions may be biased
Well, I need a good write-up on the hot side, how the turbine works, how to calculate the needed side and everything. I can't find anything on that. All I can find is small tips on the trim, which makes sense, but has nothing to do with the A/R of the hotside for example. Everything that shows up when I search is the compressor side of things.

Aah... crap. That's my mistake If a mod can and would be so kind as to move it, please do so.
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Old 01-15-2014, 06:59 PM   #24
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Lmfao !
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:17 PM   #25
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Lmfao !
lol
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:18 AM   #26
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If your talking about you having a 3.8 wanting to make 450?
With just a cheap turbo kit, I'm sorry but you'll never see those numbers

Just save up and buy a GT

Agreed 100%
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:31 AM   #27
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You better of buying a GT with a blown engine or no engine. That way everything you need is there (breaks, rear axel, ect.) a 7.5 rear axel could handle 300hp at the max so if you wanna push 450hp th
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:34 AM   #28
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If you really want to get power out a 3.8 than your better of buying a GT with a blown engine or no engine. That way everything you need is there (breaks, rear axel, ect.) a 7.5 rear axel could handle 300hp at the max so if you wanna push 450hp than you wanna need a 8.8 rear axel, and better break power.
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:34 AM   #29
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Agreed 100%
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:39 AM   #30
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Turbo Suggestions

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There's plenty of reasons not to get a v8.

Not really. Haha. Especially if you're attempting to make V8 power with a V6. I digress...

The problem with junkyard parts is you have no idea, typically, what the status is of the parts you're getting. You might have a brand new built bottom end but if you get a factory turbo off a wrecked car then ghetto-rig piping and a turbo kit.. Just to find out the turbo has over 100k miles and bad bearings and it blows up and send scraps of metal down your intake...

Ok. I'm being a bit dramatic but you get the idea.


And I respect you wanting to build a v6 and it's be awesome to have a 3.8 make 450 at the wheels.. But doing it on a more strict budget than v8 guys will prove to be difficult. Unless you can fabricate everything and do all your own work and also get parts for next to nothing. Hm.. It's possible but most will say to just go v8. It's easy and straight forward. Either way you'll have to fix the problem that the rest of your drivetrain is built for the modest power of a 3.8 stock. So that rear end is gonna essentially become chopsticks. Haha

Either way I'm not educated enough to build like that and mix-match things to make it work. I lack the training. So all I can do is criticize and back away in fear of being overwhelmed and messing things up. Although that didn't stop me from tearing my engine down and building it and that turned out alright.. Haha. Good luck!
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:42 AM   #31
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^^^His right~
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Old 01-16-2014, 09:28 AM   #32
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By the time you have everything fabbed up and all the parts together (piping, rebuilt turbo, intercooler, fuel system and tuning), you will have more money in it than should ever be invested in a 3.8.

Also, it would be much cheaper and a lot simpler to drop a cammed 6.0 LSx making up to 450whp NA into that car than any other option if you want 400+ at the wheels.

If you do decide to go turbo, a big 16G is capable of flowing around 350 - 380 whp. I have one on my Talon and it's a great turbo but pushing that turbo to flow enough for 450whp would simply not happen as it would be too far out of it's efficiency range (overboosting). You would need something like a Holeset HX30 (good for around 430 - 450whp max) or HX40 or a Mitsu 20G.
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Old 01-16-2014, 09:57 AM   #33
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Not really. Haha. Especially if you're attempting to make V8 power with a V6. I digress...

The problem with junkyard parts is you have no idea, typically, what the status is of the parts you're getting. You might have a brand new built bottom end but if you get a factory turbo off a wrecked car then ghetto-rig piping and a turbo kit.. Just to find out the turbo has over 100k miles and bad bearings and it blows up and send scraps of metal down your intake...

Ok. I'm being a bit dramatic but you get the idea.


And I respect you wanting to build a v6 and it's be awesome to have a 3.8 make 450 at the wheels.. But doing it on a more strict budget than v8 guys will prove to be difficult. Unless you can fabricate everything and do all your own work and also get parts for next to nothing. Hm.. It's possible but most will say to just go v8. It's easy and straight forward. Either way you'll have to fix the problem that the rest of your drivetrain is built for the modest power of a 3.8 stock. So that rear end is gonna essentially become chopsticks. Haha

Either way I'm not educated enough to build like that and mix-match things to make it work. I lack the training. So all I can do is criticize and back away in fear of being overwhelmed and messing things up. Although that didn't stop me from tearing my engine down and building it and that turned out alright.. Haha. Good luck!
I appreciate your vote of confidence.

There is plenty of reasons to choose a v6 of a v8 in the new edge, though.
Thought the OHV system isn't as efficient as the OHC system, it's older and has been around longer, but it's not obsolete like carburetors, in fact it works just fine and is a lot cheaper. It means 2v max, but it works just fine. In fact I picked-up my roller rockers from a guy parting is 351 build for almost free, and the price of machining the stands they sat on was considerably less.
Changing the cam is changing the cam, and not the cams. I'd also personally say it's easier, but the point is cheaper. In fact, getting a used custom cam for my motor is common.
Another aspect is size. Not so much on weight, there's a difference, and it counts, but it's not huge. The 3.8l is wider, but the 4.6l is long and doesn't offer much party room.
Thought it won't matter once I'm over the age of 26 as much, the insurance difference on a convertible v6 and a convirtible v8 (not minding the actual displacement) is sickening, and definitely worth the difference to not get cream-pied by the insurance companies.
Sadly, there's not much of a difference in gas milage, from the factory, but perhaps your biggest factor in the end in that judgement is weight, which the v6 still is lighter than the v8. You can improve both engine's efficiency, but by the end of the day, the v6 will still outperform, if only by a little, the v8.
Speaking of outperform, the 3.8l is easy to wake-up by increasing its VE, usually with nothing more than a cam or roller rockers. a 3.8l running 93% VE beacuse of a swapped cam ($250 new) in pristine visual condition (about $4500 where I live) vs. a 4.8l running around stock 85% VE in pristine visual condition (about $7000-$8000 where I live) is a whopping difference of about half a liter, and the power differs accordingly (for some of you slower guys, air=power, that's why turbos work). The price difference is substantial, the 3.8l in this situation alone has a much higher gas milage, and your car still looks good with plenty of leftover cash to actually buy that whore everyone puts stickers on their car about, or do the smart thing and go to college.
Tho bottom line on this is that the 3.8l was put in a plethora of vehicles making building and repair extremely cheap. I got my forged rotating assembly (minus the pistons which are still a better hypereutectic) from a supercoup. Great condition, less than $100. Forged rotating assembly, less than $100. Sure, junkyards offer second-hand parts, but when a shirt I buy from salvation army rips I say 'oh well.' Turbos are different than shirts, but not by much. Most are designed to keep their **** together in the event of a problem, but a rebuild on a $30 turbo still ends-up being a hell of a lot cheaper than a brand new one, and if it breaks, oh well, buy another.
I've already mentioned I have an 8.8" rear. The transmission can often take more of a beating than it's rated for, and even when it doesn't, just upgrade. You can't sell a T5 these days anyways.

So does anyone know how to do the math on the hot-side that would be kind enough to mention it, rather than gloat about your ever-so-awesome v8 which will forever be more awesomer than a v6 n' stuff? Is that too much to ask?
Can a mod please move my thread to the right place so I can maybe at least get a turbo suggestion, or should I just repost there, since there aren't many mods? ...or does the mod own a 4.6l and is laughing about his not 'incredibad' engine, too?
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:03 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Ish416 View Post
By the time you have everything fabbed up and all the parts together (piping, rebuilt turbo, intercooler, fuel system and tuning), you will have more money in it than should ever be invested in a 3.8.

Also, it would be much cheaper and a lot simpler to drop a cammed 6.0 LSx making up to 450whp NA into that car than any other option if you want 400+ at the wheels.

If you do decide to go turbo, a big 16G is capable of flowing around 350 - 380 whp. I have one on my Talon and it's a great turbo but pushing that turbo to flow enough for 450whp would simply not happen as it would be too far out of it's efficiency range (overboosting). You would need something like a Holeset HX30 (good for around 430 - 450whp max) or HX40 or a Mitsu 20G.
Thank you. Good advice... the 3.8 still is a cheap build. I can fab most my stuff, rebuild my own turbo, but I can't tune myself, biggest reason being I can't find a way to pirate the software and learn. That will be the single most expensive part, really, truly.

Will the hotside of a HX30 allow for enough gasses to pass it? What cars have an HX30? I know the Ram 2500 and 3500 Diesels carried HX35's and HX40's.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:33 PM   #35
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After thinking it over, I don't think the HX30 would be a good turbo. You would be pushing it to get the numbers you want.

The HX40 is found in the Cummins ISC engines (8.3L). These are typically in large Buses, RVs, Firetrucks, etc..

These turbos have been known to break 600hp with a bit left over. This turbo would be a bit much I think.

The HX35 from DSMtuners,

"The 8blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. This is found on 1995-1998 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 52 lb/min according to the compressor map.

The 7blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. This is found on the 1999-2002 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 60lb/min according to the compressor map and logged results from a member here. The stock hx35 12cm^2 twinscroll turbine housing is a t3 flange housing."


I would really suggest the HX35. I've been doing some math and it looks like the HX35 should be in the middle part of it's efficiency around 450hp at the crank on a 3.8L.

Stock, the 3.8L should need around 322 CFM @ 6,000 rpm with 80% volumetric efficiency.

For 450 at the crank, your engine will need to flow around 675 CFM.

That should give you a pressure ratio of around 2.0 - 2.3 maybe slightly more depending on losses, efficiency and such.

Looking at the compressor map for the HX35, it looks like the 3.8L could be almost perfect for that turbo, almost.
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