Motor rebuild questions - Mustang Evolution

Go Back   Mustang Evolution > 1979-2015 Mustang GT || Tech and Talk > 1996-2004 Mustang GT



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them here!
Old 03-04-2014, 09:14 AM   #1
Registered Member
Regular
 
2002VertGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Ohio
Posts: 1,876
Motor rebuild questions

Ok, so a few months ago my 02 gt had a slight ticking at rpms 2500-3500 (after that they got drown out by the exhaust. Checked oil, changed oil, changed timing components, sound just kept getting louder and is now a very prominent tick/slight knock. With that being said I have found a used motor for a very reasonable $325 to swap in there so I can still enjoy her for the time being while I rebuild her motor.

So, is it more cost effective to build a motor for FI or to just buy a motor for it? I have found from MMR complete long blocks capable of holding up to 900hp with trickflow heads and all the goodies for 8400. On the other hand Forged stroker kits are around the 2.5-3k range, however I know that is not all you need to do. I am quite confident that the whole process of having the block cleaned up, bored out, honed and blue printed is going to be somewhere in the 1000-1500 range? cams are another 600. P&P on my heads will be another 600? what about valve jobs not sure on price of those?

I am new to the engine building process so any help will be greatly appreciated. I currently have a Procharger P1SC 3 core intercooler to be used on this motor once its done. Not interested in the centri vs screw sc debate, if I had found a kb at the price i found this centri its what i would have. Not sure on what I need to set my compression at or what size pistons I need to achieve that compression either so any help there would be great too. Let the games begin! My budget RIGHT NOW is undetermined, my tax money is going to putting a motor in my f150 atm because that needs fixed. Over the next year though I plan to tear into the old motor and start the rebuild process if I do not just buy a motor.

As for the "just buy a 4v" guys. Got my eye on that as well. I found a guy selling everything needed to install a 4v and a t56 in a gt all for 7k. if he doesnt sell it and I can come up with that money I will do the swap.

lets get this chat started.
__________________
2004 F150 4x4 Lariat Supercrew, 5.4l, Black/Arizona Beige (daily driver)
2002 Mustang GT Convertible, triple black, mach 1000 system (Summer Car)
2001 Ranger Edge 4x4 xcab (sold to cousin)

4.10 Gear/RPM thread
2002VertGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-05-2014, 07:54 PM   #2
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 7,411
Well, I think in your case, I'd build a short block about like a Terminator. Shoot for around a 8.5-1 compression ratio and forged, of course.
Have you looked into Trick Flow heads? Pretty impressive. They seem to have taken away much of the advantage of the 4V's. Until Trick Flow starts manufacturing a 4V head that is...
As far as buying a "crate" engine vs buliding your own... that depends. Personally, I enjoy building my own engines. I know PRECISELY what parts are used and I can double check all of the tolerances myself. There's a lot of pride in turning the key and listening to the engine, that you assembled, run. Sometimes, it's just quicker and easier to have one built though.
It's going to cost a few bucks no matter how you do it...
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 08:41 PM   #3
Registered Member
Regular
 
White03GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hereford
Region: Texas
Posts: 1,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by straybullitt View Post
Well, I think in your case, I'd build a short block about like a Terminator. Shoot for around a 8.5-1 compression ratio and forged, of course.

Have you looked into Trick Flow heads? Pretty impressive. They seem to have taken away much of the advantage of the 4V's. Until Trick Flow starts manufacturing a 4V head that is...

As far as buying a "crate" engine vs buliding your own... that depends. Personally, I enjoy building my own engines. I know PRECISELY what parts are used and I can double check all of the tolerances myself. There's a lot of pride in turning the key and listening to the engine, that you assembled, run. Sometimes, it's just quicker and easier to have one built though.

It's going to cost a few bucks no matter how you do it...

100% agree. Since you dk about a budget yet im going to throw these out there...
5.0 aluminator swap with the p1
Just do a cobra swap
Build your own 5.1 stroker with a 9-1 compression fully forged with the trick flow heads cammed.
Talk to Mzilla about his BEAST! (No ****, dude literally has a beast in his garage!)
Or go with the MMR block like you stated.

Either way you go you're looking at spending some coin man :/ and not to mention upgrading everything else for the huge power gain. (Suspension, trans, dif, etc.)

I was about to do an aluminator swap into my 03 until I bought an 04 Mach. I still sometimes catch myself day dreaming about having a wicked boosted 2v though
White03GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-05-2014, 08:46 PM   #4
Registered Member
Regular
 
2002VertGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Ohio
Posts: 1,876
Yea I know they are both going to cost...just wondering about which cost more. I would LOVE to build my own but I have never done it and would be absolutely livid if I put it all together and it f'ed up right away. I have looked at trick flow heads. If I buy a motor I'm looking at buying a long block with them. If I rebuild just looking at p&p for now. What pistons would I need to achieve 8.5-1? I saw some 23cc dishes pistons that get almost down to 9:1. How bad would low compression run n/a till I got my entire build together?
__________________
2004 F150 4x4 Lariat Supercrew, 5.4l, Black/Arizona Beige (daily driver)
2002 Mustang GT Convertible, triple black, mach 1000 system (Summer Car)
2001 Ranger Edge 4x4 xcab (sold to cousin)

4.10 Gear/RPM thread
2002VertGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 08:57 PM   #5
Registered Member
Regular
 
White03GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hereford
Region: Texas
Posts: 1,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002VertGT View Post
Yea I know they are both going to cost...just wondering about which cost more. I would LOVE to build my own but I have never done it and would be absolutely livid if I put it all together and it f'ed up right away. I have looked at trick flow heads. If I buy a motor I'm looking at buying a long block with them. If I rebuild just looking at p&p for now. What pistons would I need to achieve 8.5-1? I saw some 23cc dishes pistons that get almost down to 9:1. How bad would low compression run n/a till I got my entire build together?

I think stock compression is 9:1... Not 100% on that though...

What psi are you wanting to run? And what power are you wanting??
White03GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 11:53 PM   #6
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 7,411
Stock Termi pistons were 18 cc, but 4v heads have larger chambers, I believe. If you can get down to around 9-1, that's not bad. Anything less will either come from custom pistons or chamber work on the heads.
Lower compression N/A will give you less power. So will a set of blower cams when N/A.
It really depends how much boost you want to use which dictates the best plan for a supercharged engine build.
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 11:57 PM   #7
Registered Member
Regular
 
2002VertGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Ohio
Posts: 1,876
I have the p1sc 3 core system...I believe it runs 10psi. On a built block is like to see 500-600 hp. The question about the low compression while n/a is incase I don't have the $ for the tune right away. It won't run long like that and I'll have my truck to drive too so it probably won't see much street and I have no plans to track it much at all let alone till I have it set up right with boost.
__________________
2004 F150 4x4 Lariat Supercrew, 5.4l, Black/Arizona Beige (daily driver)
2002 Mustang GT Convertible, triple black, mach 1000 system (Summer Car)
2001 Ranger Edge 4x4 xcab (sold to cousin)

4.10 Gear/RPM thread
2002VertGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 11:58 PM   #8
Registered Member
Regular
 
2002VertGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Ohio
Posts: 1,876
My biggest ? Here is what do I need to build a motor and about how much will it cost (without labor) and someone with experience on labor charges what do you think labor would run if I had a shop do it? If it comes close to what I can buy a long block for regardless of the fact that I would love to build it I'll leave it to the pros and get a warranty.
__________________
2004 F150 4x4 Lariat Supercrew, 5.4l, Black/Arizona Beige (daily driver)
2002 Mustang GT Convertible, triple black, mach 1000 system (Summer Car)
2001 Ranger Edge 4x4 xcab (sold to cousin)

4.10 Gear/RPM thread
2002VertGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 12:03 AM   #9
Registered Member
Regular
 
2002VertGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Ohio
Posts: 1,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by White03GT View Post
100% agree. Since you dk about a budget yet im going to throw these out there...
5.0 aluminator swap with the p1
Just do a cobra swap
Build your own 5.1 stroker with a 9-1 compression fully forged with the trick flow heads cammed.
Talk to Mzilla about his BEAST! (No ****, dude literally has a beast in his garage!)
Or go with the MMR block like you stated.

Either way you go you're looking at spending some coin man :/ and not to mention upgrading everything else for the huge power gain. (Suspension, trans, dif, etc.)

I was about to do an aluminator swap into my 03 until I bought an 04 Mach. I still sometimes catch myself day dreaming about having a wicked boosted 2v though

Completely missed your post man... 5.0 aluminator? Is that the 5.0 block you can find on AM? Pretty sure I'm gonna stroke whatever block I use. I'm just not to smart on this stuff cause I've never done it. I don't know what all I need or what it cost and I can't look it all up w:I knowing what I need. One reason I'm thinking about just having mmr build me a motor with all the bells and whistles (like the 750 or 900 block) and calling it a day. Other issue is I really don't have a garage yet, wife may be upset if I sell the table and build a motor in the dining room.
__________________
2004 F150 4x4 Lariat Supercrew, 5.4l, Black/Arizona Beige (daily driver)
2002 Mustang GT Convertible, triple black, mach 1000 system (Summer Car)
2001 Ranger Edge 4x4 xcab (sold to cousin)

4.10 Gear/RPM thread
2002VertGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 06:34 AM   #10
Registered Member
Regular
 
White03GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hereford
Region: Texas
Posts: 1,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002VertGT View Post
I have the p1sc 3 core system...I believe it runs 10psi. On a built block is like to see 500-600 hp. The question about the low compression while n/a is incase I don't have the $ for the tune right away. It won't run long like that and I'll have my truck to drive too so it probably won't see much street and I have no plans to track it much at all let alone till I have it set up right with boost.

If you want 5-600 rwhp on 10# you're going to want about a 10.5:1 cr. That would be decent NA as well.
White03GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 06:35 AM   #11
Registered Member
Regular
 
White03GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hereford
Region: Texas
Posts: 1,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002VertGT View Post
Completely missed your post man... 5.0 aluminator? Is that the 5.0 block you can find on AM? Pretty sure I'm gonna stroke whatever block I use. I'm just not to smart on this stuff cause I've never done it. I don't know what all I need or what it cost and I can't look it all up w:I knowing what I need. One reason I'm thinking about just having mmr build me a motor with all the bells and whistles (like the 750 or 900 block) and calling it a day. Other issue is I really don't have a garage yet, wife may be upset if I sell the table and build a motor in the dining room.

Yes thats the one lol. I always heard it better to ask for forgiveness then permission ha
White03GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 12:26 PM   #12
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 7,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by White03GT View Post
If you want 5-600 rwhp on 10# you're going to want about a 10.5:1 cr. That would be decent NA as well.
If I was going to build a N/A street engine, I'd be trying to get around a 10.5-1 compression ratio.
10.5 is way too high for supercharging. Period.
Especially, with fuel injection. Carburetors? Maybe, but you're still going to be stuck using high octane fuel, low boost, not much timing.
Anything over 9.5 becomes a tuning nightmare. Around 9 is a good compromise. Ford made the Terminators 8.5 for a reason.
A perfect example of this is the "Pinging Knocking" thread in this forum...
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 12:38 PM   #13
Registered Member
Regular
 
Rapinator126's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Texas
Posts: 9,246
10.5 is fine for supercharging or any FI you will just have to run e85.

Sent from my HTC One using Mustang Evolution mobile app
Rapinator126 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 12:46 PM   #14
Registered Member
Regular
 
White03GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hereford
Region: Texas
Posts: 1,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by straybullitt View Post
If I was going to build a N/A street engine, I'd be trying to get around a 10.5-1 compression ratio.

10.5 is way too high for supercharging. Period.

Especially, with fuel injection. Carburetors? Maybe, but you're still going to be stuck using high octane fuel, low boost, not much timing.

Anything over 9.5 becomes a tuning nightmare. Around 9 is a good compromise. Ford made the Terminators 8.5 for a reason.

A perfect example of this is the "Pinging Knocking" thread in this forum...

Good luck getting 500-600 whp at anything less then that on only 10 psi. I know plenty of people that have 10.5:1 or higher with fi set ups no problem.
White03GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 01:09 PM   #15
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 7,411
Of course it can be done. But why limit yourself to those power levels? If you're going to build an engine, why not one that could go to 7, 8 900 horsepower?
As for the E85, yes, that is what you need to pull it off. There's a better quench with alcohol to cool down the charge, which is the problem with using high compression and supercharging.

I know what the guys on these forums have to say about this. Why don't you guys look into what the engine builders are doing? Or the supercharger manufacturer's themselves.

Procharger, for instance...
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 01:38 PM   #16
Registered Member
Regular
 
Rapinator126's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Texas
Posts: 9,246
I am doing it. Made 700 the first time with 11.5 on e85 and nitrous. New set up with new motor is still 11.5 and going turbo with e85. So I have dobe it and know it can be done.

Sent from my HTC One using Mustang Evolution mobile app
Rapinator126 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 01:40 PM   #17
Registered Member
Regular
 
White03GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hereford
Region: Texas
Posts: 1,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by straybullitt View Post
Of course it can be done. But why limit yourself to those power levels? If you're going to build an engine, why not one that could go to 7, 8 900 horsepower?

As for the E85, yes, that is what you need to pull it off. There's a better quench with alcohol to cool down the charge, which is the problem with using high compression and supercharging.



I know what the guys on these forums have to say about this. Why don't you guys look into what the engine builders are doing? Or the supercharger manufacturer's themselves.



Procharger, for instance...

OP said he was looking for 5-600 whp at 10#s. Hence the reason i said 10.5:1 cr. Of coarse you can get loads more safely with higher boost and lower cr.
White03GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 01:57 PM   #18
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 7,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapinator126 View Post
I am doing it. Made 700 the first time with 11.5 on e85 and nitrous. New set up with new motor is still 11.5 and going turbo with e85. So I have dobe it and know it can be done.

Sent from my HTC One using Mustang Evolution mobile app
I don't see anything wrong with the nitrous.
It will be interesting to see how that works for you with boost...
Id invest in meth injection for that setup.

Engines are a completely different animal on alcohol. I used to have a neighbor who was a well known sprint car racer here on the west coast. He had an 18-1 compression, N/A, 410 cubic inch small block Chevy that ran on Methanol... 900+ horsepower. Again, normally aspirated.
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 02:01 PM   #19
Registered Member
Regular
 
Rapinator126's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Texas
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by straybullitt View Post
I don't see anything wrong with the nitrous.
It will be interesting to see how that works for you with boost...
Id invest in meth injection for that setup.

Engines are a completely different animal on alcohol. I used to have a neighbor who was a well known sprint car racer here on the west coast. He had an 18-1 compression, N/A, 410 cubic inch small block Chevy that ran on Methanol... 900+ horsepower. Again, normally aspirated.
Bud you cant run meth and e85. So u need to look more info something b4 you give advice. My motor is built for it. Far from stock 2012 gt.

Sent from my HTC One using Mustang Evolution mobile app
Rapinator126 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 02:08 PM   #20
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 7,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapinator126 View Post
Bud you cant run meth and e85. So u need to look more info something b4 you give advice. My motor is built for it. Far from stock 2012 gt.

Sent from my HTC One using Mustang Evolution mobile app
Gee Whiz... I guess your right.

Real happy about your engine Rapinator...
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 02:11 PM   #21
Registered Member
Regular
 
Rapinator126's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Texas
Posts: 9,246
Just saying meth and e85 do not mix. Its been tried b4 no gains at all. Meth is a bandaid for pumpgas. I ran meth on my 03 cobra more of pain in the *** then anything. The nozzles l'île to fail on occasion. If your tune relys on it and the nozzle rails. Then it may be bad.

Sent from my HTC One using Mustang Evolution mobile app
Rapinator126 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 02:23 PM   #22
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 7,411
Naw, I hear you man. It would have to be a "max effort" engine to make use of both.
Like I said, it will be interesting to see how much boost that you can put to your high compression engine running on E85.
The biggest problem, for me, would be the availability of the E85. No place sells it where I live right now and, from what I've seen, the stations that sell it are far and few between, here in CA.
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 02:30 PM   #23
Registered Member
Regular
 
Rapinator126's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Texas
Posts: 9,246
We will go to 17 psi.

Sent from my HTC One using Mustang Evolution mobile app
Rapinator126 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 02:50 PM   #24
Registered Member
Regular
 
2002VertGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Ohio
Posts: 1,876
5-600 is a starting target. I know bigger is possible. I'm not building a track monster to stand on it's ***. I want more power to have fun with. My car is a convertible not looking to twist it into a mangled mess. If I need a smaller pulley to produce more boost I can do that. What can the stock 3650 handle? What about the t56?
__________________
2004 F150 4x4 Lariat Supercrew, 5.4l, Black/Arizona Beige (daily driver)
2002 Mustang GT Convertible, triple black, mach 1000 system (Summer Car)
2001 Ranger Edge 4x4 xcab (sold to cousin)

4.10 Gear/RPM thread
2002VertGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 05:06 PM   #25
Registered Member
Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Salinas
Region: California
Posts: 7,411
The 3650 can handle 360 ft-lbs of torque. The T-56 around 700 ft-lbs.
Keep in mind, those numbers are for warranty purposes, and, usually, both transmissions can handle substantially more power than that.
Of the many factors that determine drivetrain longevity, having a too aggressive clutch is probably the most destructive.
straybullitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 05:52 AM   #26
Registered Member
Regular
 
2002VertGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Region: Ohio
Posts: 1,876
Have a bad left hip...not planning on aggressive clutch. Actually thinking about spending the coin for a hydraulic setup at some point...just don't feel like ever giving up the man pedal.
__________________
2004 F150 4x4 Lariat Supercrew, 5.4l, Black/Arizona Beige (daily driver)
2002 Mustang GT Convertible, triple black, mach 1000 system (Summer Car)
2001 Ranger Edge 4x4 xcab (sold to cousin)

4.10 Gear/RPM thread
2002VertGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Mustang Evolution > 1979-2015 Mustang GT || Tech and Talk > 1996-2004 Mustang GT

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Questions for the newer 6ers... V6 stang 2005-2010 V6 Mustang 42 09-23-2016 06:03 PM
13-14 Shaker 500 questions. Capn__Morgan Mustang Audio & Video 7 02-06-2014 02:34 PM
Procharger questions FordLife93 2005-2010 Mustang GT 2 06-28-2013 10:06 AM
NOTICE! Do Not Post Questions About Your Car Here Trojan Horse ME Site Help & Announcements 0 08-15-2012 03:20 PM
95 GT questions deadsp0t 1979-1995 Mustang GT 54 11-04-2011 03:16 PM

» Like Us On Facebook



03:58 AM


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0

MustangEvolution.com is in no way associated with or endorsed by Ford Motor Company.