LT Headers vs ST Headers - Mustang Evolution

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Old 03-26-2015, 10:48 AM   #1
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LT Headers vs ST Headers

Trying to decide the best route to take to reach the effects I want to achieve. I looking to go with the an O/R H-pipe with Borla Atak mufflers to give my 99 GT that deep roaring tone.

Im stuck on deciding the type of headers to choose and what is the difference between Long tube headers compared to short tube headers.

I was chatting with a mustang expert on Americanmuscle.com and he recommended PYPES LT Headers with the PYPES O/R H-pipe to achieve that deep roaring tone.

What are you guys/gals suggestions.

Thanks much.
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Old 03-26-2015, 12:06 PM   #2
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Kooks or SLP for long tubes. It's a waste of money to get short tube headers. As far as other Longtubes go you get what you pay for and your probably going to have rust issues or exhaust leaks just to for warn you.


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Old 03-26-2015, 12:13 PM   #3
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Short tubes are not a waste on the 2'vs. May not gain as much as a set if longtubes. But a good short tube with proper sized primaries will out flow the stock manifolds by a landslide.

I have noticed alot lately on here, people are taking what they have heard on the coyote pages, and trying to relate it to the 2v's and 3v's which does not work.

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Old 03-26-2015, 12:16 PM   #4
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Thanks guys. Does having the same headers and h-pipe matter as far as brand,?


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Old 03-26-2015, 12:47 PM   #5
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Thanks guys. Does having the same headers and h-pipe matter as far as brand,?


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Definetly try to match brands

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Old 03-26-2015, 01:42 PM   #6
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Short tubes are not a waste on the 2'vs. May not gain as much as a set if longtubes. But a good short tube with proper sized primaries will out flow the stock manifolds by a landslide.

I have noticed alot lately on here, people are taking what they have heard on the coyote pages, and trying to relate it to the 2v's and 3v's which does not work.

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Unless someone is aiming for a specific exhaust note, dyno results have proven that short tube headers don't show enough of a gain to be considered a worthwhile performance modification.

And to the OP, if you live in an area that does emissions testing, long tube headers can be a problem because they change the location of the 02 sensors and the catalytic converters.
Check your local emission requirements before you make any decisions.
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Old 03-26-2015, 01:51 PM   #7
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Unless someone is aiming for a specific exhaust note, dyno results have proven that short tube headers don't show enough of a gain to be considered a worthwhile performance modification.

And to the OP, if you live in an area that does emissions testing, long tube headers can be a problem because they change the location of the 02 sensors and the catalytic converters.
Check your local emission requirements before you make any decisions.
Emissions sounds like a hassle.

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Old 03-26-2015, 01:54 PM   #8
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LT Headers vs ST Headers

I should be alright. I don't have to do any type of inspection.


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Old 03-26-2015, 02:18 PM   #9
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Whatever you choose the sound your looking for will mostly rely on the mid pipe and catback you run but LTs do make alot more power than shorties. But the biggest thing you should take into consideration is future maintenance because LTs takes up a lot of room. Also I would use grade 8 locking header bolts for LTs because you will not be able to properly retorque the blots after a heat cycle without dismantling everything again. Also I'd get a new starter while your at it.


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Old 03-27-2015, 11:25 AM   #10
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Shorties = no power.
Been debated a zillion times but the reality is.....nope.
2v/3v/4v still equals nope.
They will change the sound but that's it.
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Old 03-27-2015, 01:57 PM   #11
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Trying to decide the best route to take to reach the effects I want to achieve. I looking to go with the an O/R H-pipe with Borla Atak mufflers to give my 99 GT that deep roaring tone.

Im stuck on deciding the type of headers to choose and what is the difference between Long tube headers compared to short tube headers.

I was chatting with a mustang expert on Americanmuscle.com and he recommended PYPES LT Headers with the PYPES O/R H-pipe to achieve that deep roaring tone.

What are you guys/gals suggestions.

Thanks much.

Hey mergejones - We're all going to have varying opinions here (the same with the chat reps as well) and I would personally avoid the Pypes setup only because I ran into a few fitment issues helping a buddy get them installed. By fitment issues I mean something was incorrectly welded and I'll leave it at that. I've used BBK in the past as well and had a separate unrelated issue and I'll have to agree with the SLP Comment (chech maybe) and the SLP LongTube Headers are where it's at - I've had them on my '01 at one point (I've test fit with our team literally everything here on my car) and the build quality, fit and finish was ridiculous. I always used to think that there was just one supplier that made headers for our cars and that one it but I swear once you're to get these in your hands you really see the difference. It's also highly important to pick up the same brand mid pipe as well and you would need SLP's Catted X - The X will flow negligibly better than the H but the tone is going to be fairly different. X is more high pitched and a screamer whereas the H is just brute force (Just my .02 guys) If you're going to be doing the LongTubes we would definitely recommend picking up a Bama X4 Tuner as well in order to make the best of the mods on your car. Sorry I didn't hit much on the shorty headers but everyone else already did in here!

Let me know if you're to have any questions at all and I'm here to help!

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Old 03-27-2015, 02:06 PM   #12
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Shorties = no power.
Been debated a zillion times but the reality is.....nope.
2v/3v/4v still equals nope.
They will change the sound but that's it.
Not true. Not true at all.
I'm glad alot of you guys stick with your mustangs in all honesty.

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Old 03-27-2015, 02:44 PM   #13
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Not true. Not true at all.
I'm glad alot of you guys stick with your mustangs in all honesty.

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True, Totally true, this subject has been beaten to death and proven over and over so I'm not interested in additional debate if you're not interested in the truth. Butt Dyno's don't count and real dyno's don't show the improvement that some manufacturers claim. I'm not going to bother with all the links, articles, DYNO slips and other supporting data because some people care more about opinion than they do about facts. So do what you want but be glad someone was honest enough to tell you the truth. And that's all I have to say about that.
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Old 03-27-2015, 02:52 PM   #14
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True, Totally true, this subject has been beaten to death and proven over and over so I'm not interested in additional debate if you're not interested in the truth. Butt Dyno's don't count and real dyno's don't show the improvement that some manufacturers claim. I'm not going to bother with all the links, articles, DYNO slips and other supporting data because some people care more about opinion than they do about facts. So do what you want but be glad someone was honest enough to tell you the truth. And that's all I have to say about that.
Im not talking about me. Im not doing this for me. I have fully built 5.0 that makes 445hp on motor through stock "manifolds" and 715hp with the bottle.

Also on a 2v swapping the stock manifolds for a set of shorties does pick up power.

So you can disagree all you want. But to say a set of properly sized primaries on a short tube won't give a power increase on a 2v over the manifolds is ignorant.

The coyotes is a different story as the stock manifolds are a tri-y header. Only restriction they have is up in the power band.

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Old 03-27-2015, 03:04 PM   #15
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LT Headers vs ST Headers

Alex I really appreciate your advice as well as everyone else's. I knew to this and looking for every bit of above I can find. Tomorrow when I get to work I'm going to search the site and start making my list of mods and seeing what's best. What exhaust would you recommend? I really like the borla system. I've also heard that the flowmaster American Thunders were great too. I've got a lot more research top do. I got 35 days left on this deployment. I can't wait to get back stateside and start working on my car.


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Old 03-27-2015, 04:20 PM   #16
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Im not talking about me. Im not doing this for me. I have fully built 5.0 that makes 445hp on motor through stock "manifolds" and 715hp with the bottle.

Also on a 2v swapping the stock manifolds for a set of shorties does pick up power.

So you can disagree all you want. But to say a set of properly sized primaries on a short tube won't give a power increase on a 2v over the manifolds is ignorant.

The coyotes is a different story as the stock manifolds are a tri-y header. Only restriction they have is up in the power band.

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Ignorant? I have much more time and expertise in this area than I think you realize.
But never the less, have a great day.
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Old 03-27-2015, 04:31 PM   #17
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Ignorant? I have much more time and expertise in this area than I think you realize.
But never the less, have a great day.
If you say so.
This isn't my first go around, so don't let my age fool you. They won't make a big hp difference like longtubes on the 2v, but to say they are useless is not correct.

I'm not trying to start a argument but, think for a minute

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Old 03-27-2015, 04:45 PM   #18
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If you say so.
This isn't my first go around, so don't let my age fool you. They won't make a big hp difference like longtubes on the 2v, but to say they are useless is not correct.

I'm not trying to start a argument but, think for a minute

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Wow, shorties (well flowing or not) give back like 1-3 hp on the sheets I've seen (if that). Pretty useless as stocks flow fairly well. I guess u better go ahead and change ur CAI as well and get those other 2hp from that too. Lotta $$ for little to NO gains, but to each his own
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Old 03-27-2015, 05:02 PM   #19
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If you say so.
This isn't my first go around, so don't let my age fool you. They won't make a big hp difference like longtubes on the 2v, but to say they are useless is not correct.

I'm not trying to start a argument but, think for a minute

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Oh I do.....believe me, that's what I do for a living.
I have a long history as an exhaust professional, designer, innovator and inventor as well as a championship driver and stock car designer. Things that are just now becoming popular I experimented with 35 years ago....I pioneered many of them. I was featured in industry magazines, radio and TV before many of the current brands were even in the business. So when I talk about exhaust systems, I have a little leg up on most folks. Now I design and build machinery that tests and produces the newest high tech products that come to market; usually a few years after I've done my work....I have products in your home, in the military, in nuclear facilities and in space.....so ignorant isn't word that I would use here. But whatever...lets move on.
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Old 03-27-2015, 05:03 PM   #20
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Wow, shorties (well flowing or not) give back like 1-3 hp on the sheets I've seen (if that). Pretty useless as stocks flow fairly well. I guess u better go ahead and change ur CAI as well and get those other 2hp from that too. Lotta $$ for little to NO gains, but to each his own
Exactly.
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Old 03-31-2015, 04:20 AM   #21
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Ok, round two of this for the day. Basic header science. Shorty headers should in fact not be called headers at all. They do not do the job headers were designed to do, they can't because they aren't long enough. The only way they can give you power is by allowing exhaust gasses to encounter fewer obstacles (read sharp turns) on the way out and then only if the manifolds actually are restricting that flow to begin with.

Long tube headers on the other hand when properly chosen, rip the exhaust charge out of your cylinders. That's right they actually make a vacuum like suction affect called scavenging. What happens is cylinder x opens it's exhaust port, the charge travels down the tube as a pulse. Just as that pulse is hitting the collector the next cylinder's opening it's exhaust port and the first charge pulls the next charge out faster. The reason this is so tremendously (besides having a cleaner cylinder for the next power stroke) is that for the split second that the intake and exhaust ports are both open it allows the exhaust pulse to actually pull your intake charge into the cylinder before the piston has even begun to think about doing so. So now you have an intake charge that instead of being stagnate and pulled in by your piston (which takes power from the engine) you have a charge moving into the cylinder so fast it can actually exceed the amount piston could ever pull in. In fact you can over fill your cylinders by up to about 20% (this is in a serious race application a street application would probably pull in about 10% over). THATS why headers work as well as they do, and why if you get headers you very much want to pick your optimal cam.

I can't recommend David Vizard books enough when it comes to stuff about engines. Pick up how to build horsepower by David Vizard, the man is engine building god and an excellent writer.


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Old 03-31-2015, 08:28 AM   #22
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See I read things like this and it just fuels the fire for me wanting to buy longtubes...


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Old 03-31-2015, 09:32 AM   #23
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Lol I don't blame you, I want them too but I live in Cali...


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Old 03-31-2015, 09:48 AM   #24
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CandymanGT thanks a lot for that knowledge. I knew to the game and Im acting as a sponge to soak up all of this great knowledge and wealth when it comes to putting my mustang together. I was looking into the MAC Longtube headers. Any advice from anyone who have used them. I'm also looking at the SLP LT headers as well recommended by Alex from AM.
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Old 03-31-2015, 11:04 AM   #25
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Yeah no problem. This is a topic I've seen come up a ton in the past and invariably bad info gets put out there.
My favorite "idiot identifier" is people who try to tell people then need a little back pressure in their exhaust... People like to impart that little fallacy a lot when talking about turbo set ups... It's NEVER true, and while yes when running a turbo you will always have a bit of back pressure in a turbo set up it's only because they have a required obstacle, the impeller... It's actually MORE important to evac your exhaust expediently in a boosted application because now your exhaust is under pressure and will actually try (and can succeed in) to reopen/prevent the exhaust valve from closing. This is because in turbo applications you can have a boost pressure in the cylinder that is actually less than the exhaust pressure (can be as bad as 2:1).

Main things to look into when looking at headers, make sure all tubes are actually equal length within about 1/4", the diameter of the primaries match your application, and there's a rule the governs the selection of the length of your collector but it's been a while and I forget what it is. I have seen nothing but good reviews about the kooks, however the first time I'd ever known SLP even made headers was yesterday so I'm no help there.

I also HIGHLY recommend that if you ever read anything from David Vizard, read what he has to say about cams. Don't just pick something other people tell you is good, do the math and find whats really right for your car and then trust yourself. Many people can tell you what works well, not many people know how to actually select the BEST for a given application.


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Old 03-31-2015, 11:36 AM   #26
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Alex I really appreciate your advice as well as everyone else's. I knew to this and looking for every bit of above I can find. Tomorrow when I get to work I'm going to search the site and start making my list of mods and seeing what's best. What exhaust would you recommend? I really like the borla system. I've also heard that the flowmaster American Thunders were great too. I've got a lot more research top do. I got 35 days left on this deployment. I can't wait to get back stateside and start working on my car.
mergejones - Hey anytime, I'm always around to help out whereever I can. That's a tough one and It's going to come down to what you like to hear behind you. Having had both I'm partial to Flowmaster but they're on everyone and their cousins GT - Not that there's anything wrong with that at all it's just something where you want to show up at a meet and not see your system on 10 other cars. For what it's worth I like the Borla but it comes with a price but their research and engineering is paramount. You're not going to find another system like theirs. Let me know when you're stateside, be safe, and shoot me a PM so I can get you our Mil discount code.

V/R

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Old 03-31-2015, 01:51 PM   #27
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mergejones - Hey anytime, I'm always around to help out whereever I can. That's a tough one and It's going to come down to what you like to hear behind you. Having had both I'm partial to Flowmaster but they're on everyone and their cousins GT - Not that there's anything wrong with that at all it's just something where you want to show up at a meet and not see your system on 10 other cars. For what it's worth I like the Borla but it comes with a price but their research and engineering is paramount. You're not going to find another system like theirs. Let me know when you're stateside, be safe, and shoot me a PM so I can get you our Mil discount code.

V/R

Alex
Mr. Alex thanks a lot Sir for all of your help and advice. I really appreciate all what you have done and will continue to do. I will definitely be talking to you when i get home on my parts. When i do my order i plan to do a bulk order so that i can get started right away. As it gets closer to me coming home i will send you a PM so that we can discuss.

Much Appreciated,

Merge
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Old 03-31-2015, 08:06 PM   #28
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I would choose the headers that will benefit you the most in the long run. If you plan on going FI one day you may want to weigh your options. I would hate to hear you decided to go turbo and now you have to sell a set of longtubes for shortys
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Old 03-31-2015, 09:23 PM   #29
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Um usually you swap to a set of terbo specific headers but you can easily run a turbo off long tubes. You just have to run the turbo by/in your trunk or some other less usual spot.


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Old 03-31-2015, 09:44 PM   #30
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Long tubes act like a siphon for your cylinder.

Shorties don't isolate the exhaust pulses for as long as long tubes do, so the pulses interfere with eachother and you get wave interference. Look up wave interference, and wave troughs.

Your exhaust travels through the tube like a wave. Each time the exhaust valve opens, a pressure "Wave" of exhaust travels down the tube. behind this wave, is a "trough" or a vacuum. That vacuum stays there until the exhaust valve opens again, then the vacuum pulls the new exhaust gasses out, or just kinda lets them get pushed out a lot easier.

Equal length headers actually can use one cylinders exhaust pulses to help pull exhaust out of different exhaust tubes, once they finally meet in the coupler.

180 degree headers do that also, but twice as much at a time.
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Old 03-31-2015, 10:24 PM   #31
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Um usually you swap to a set of terbo specific headers but you can easily run a turbo off long tubes. You just have to run the turbo by/in your trunk or some other less usual spot.


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Easily no, and umm No to the "in your trunk" also. It can be under the hood or behind the bumper. You don't want a rear mount for 1.

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Old 03-31-2015, 10:30 PM   #32
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Depends on what your definition of "easy" is and what tools you have available. I agree about rear mounting a single turbo.. not really a good way to do it in my opinion. But I like rear mount TT
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Old 03-31-2015, 10:36 PM   #33
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Yeah when I wrote that I was thinking TT, there would be too much delay for a single I would think. And I have seen cars wit the turbo where the back seat was. I tend to think of things that are not so easy as easy because I have access to my dad's body shop so on that my opinion may be skewed...


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Old 03-31-2015, 10:39 PM   #34
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I would really like to have a beater V8 car of some sort and have a draw through turbo.

So the turbo sucks air through a carburetor, which is on the intake on the turbo. I love that simplicity and it would be alright for a "fun" car not being a DD
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Old 03-31-2015, 11:34 PM   #35
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If you plan on staying NA or going with a SC, then go Lt Headers!.. If your going to go the Turbo route, then go with a set of Tuned Length Headers!.. Forget about shorties!.. For the same price Tuned Length will work better!.. I have a set of BBK Tuned Length on my '04 GT and I'm very happy with them!..


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