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Old 07-24-2017, 10:11 PM   #806
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Yes.
But, the keyway slot on the crankshaft may not be cut precisely on TDC like the fixture that they are using to degree the cams. There can be manufacturing differences between the 100's of thousands of crankshafts that were manufactured over the years. Not to mention differences in machining done to the block and cylinder heads.
I know that this seems like it is "splitting hairs", but to do a proper "blueprint" on the engine, you need to have the assembled engine to correctly degree the cams.
I suppose that, considering that there is a long chain that drives a short chain on a 4V, it is likely that there will be some variation in the exact cam timing specifications no matter how the degreeing is done.
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Old 07-24-2017, 11:06 PM   #807
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Yes.
But, the keyway slot on the crankshaft may not be cut precisely on TDC like the fixture that they are using to degree the cams. There can be manufacturing differences between the 100's of thousands of crankshafts that were manufactured over the years. Not to mention differences in machining done to the block and cylinder heads.
I know that this seems like it is "splitting hairs", but to do a proper "blueprint" on the engine, you need to have the assembled engine to correctly degree the cams.
I suppose that, considering that there is a long chain that drives a short chain on a 4V, it is likely that there will be some variation in the exact cam timing specifications no matter how the degreeing is done.

Thinking way to hard into it.


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Old 07-24-2017, 11:27 PM   #808
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Lol.
Probably.
But I will bet you that any engine builder worth a crap would agree with me.

That kind of attention to detail is more important on a NA engine than on a blown engine. Nowadays, if you want more power, you just have to throw a lot of boost at it.
It wasn't always that easy to go fast...
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Old 07-25-2017, 04:24 AM   #809
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NHRA Pro Stock cars are naturally aspirated. They are 500cid engines pushing about 1500hp if I remember correctly. 200 plus mph in 6 sec in the quarter mile.

Power can be made without boost or nitrous, you just can't drive it to the grocery store. Lol

Dad had a Ford Street Rod in the shop years ago that made 900hp on pump gas. This was printed on the engine builder's spec sheet for the show circuit info.

Unfortunately that old Ford cost as much as some houses. The engine was balanced and blue printed... etc etc.

I wonder if 500 naturally aspirated hp can be pull out of a 2v 4.6? In theory it's possible, but I doubt it would stay together.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:02 AM   #810
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Lol.
Probably.
But I will bet you that any engine builder worth a crap would agree with me.

That kind of attention to detail is more important on a NA engine than on a blown engine. Nowadays, if you want more power, you just have to throw a lot of boost at it.
It wasn't always that easy to go fast...

Well I use them. No problems. You are over thinking something that does not even come close to making a difference.


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Old 07-25-2017, 09:17 AM   #811
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80% of people who "degree" the cams in the first place do it wrong anyways. So many people really have no clue, and easier just left up to MHS or equivalent


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Agreed, I will have to learn to do it eventually unless MHS or Cushman or someone will degree 4V cams like they do with 2V cams but not sure if they do. I should probably ask...
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Old 07-25-2017, 09:25 AM   #812
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Just emailed Cushman and MHS... We'll see if they do 4V degreeing.

In other news, still waiting on parts. Stuff all gets here Wednesday from FTBR/LMR/Steeda and here we go finally... jesus H christ this has taken way too long with all the parts...
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:48 AM   #813
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Cushman got right back, says 4V has way too much going on to do a remote degree... Assume MHS will be the same response.

Probably just going to leave the cams that are in the engine in there now. Factory installed, same as the Mach, just need to get it running.
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Old 07-25-2017, 04:03 PM   #814
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In positive news, got some Steeda parts for Steeda car.

Got from Jegs, drop shipped directly from Steeda, 10% mil discount on Jegs, free shipping and badass powder coat job on it.

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Old 07-26-2017, 12:46 AM   #815
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NHRA Pro Stock cars are naturally aspirated. They are 500cid engines pushing about 1500hp if I remember correctly. 200 plus mph in 6 sec in the quarter mile.

Power can be made without boost or nitrous, you just can't drive it to the grocery store. Lol

Dad had a Ford Street Rod in the shop years ago that made 900hp on pump gas. This was printed on the engine builder's spec sheet for the show circuit info.

Unfortunately that old Ford cost as much as some houses. The engine was balanced and blue printed... etc etc.

I wonder if 500 naturally aspirated hp can be pull out of a 2v 4.6? In theory it's possible, but I doubt it would stay together.
And both the Pro Stock ET and speed world records are held by Mustangs!

Pro Stock engine builders are the absolute pinnacle of high performance engine building. They do things to engines that are almost mythical! I don't think that you will ever see a used
Pro Stock engine, that is still competitive, sold on the open market. They probably rarely, if ever, are sold privately. That is the most secretive race class that you will ever see.
Hall of famer Bob Glidden used to do all of his own engine building. And his pit crew was comprised of family members. Nobody, outside of his family, ever had any knowledge of what was done to his engines. He crashed his car one time. It rolled over several times, tossing parts along the track as it went. When it finally came to a stop, Bob jumped out from the wreckage, and immediately took off his jacket and covered up the intake manifold with it, before anyone could take a picture of it.
That's how serious those guys are about keeping the engine mods a secret.

Of course you can get 500 hp out of a 4.6. It's going to be expensive to build and expensive to run on race gas. Or hell, why not go big and run it on alcohol! And I mean straight alcohol.
Really, the only benefit to building a naturally aspirated engine would be for a road race or autocross car, where big horsepower is not as important as keeping the car as light as possible.
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:16 AM   #816
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Cushman got right back, says 4V has way too much going on to do a remote degree... Assume MHS will be the same response.

Probably just going to leave the cams that are in the engine in there now. Factory installed, same as the Mach, just need to get it running.
Yeah, you could spend a lot of time and money fixing the factory defects in the timing components on those engines, to try and get it perfect.
And to what end?
If you install the supercharger, you can still make enough power with it to blow up the engine.
Rap is actually sort of right, there really isn't any reason to over think this. Especially at the power level that we are talking about.
I think that it will run just fine at the factory setting, even without boost. It should run exactly like a 4V! Lol
Just put it together so you can load it onto a Spanish Galleon, or whatever they use to move cars over the ocean nowadays.
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Old 07-28-2017, 05:26 PM   #817
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Well for power off boost lol. But it's all good. Also last part finally just got here...

Tomorrow... Omg...

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Old 07-30-2017, 06:34 PM   #818
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Weekend got shot in the ***... grandmother is really sick, probably not going to last much longer, had to take one of my dogs back to his breeder this weekend because we can't take him to Europe with us and today the whole day was putting the IRS back together and being completely OCD about it.

Had a few tool issues and the bolts for the front subframe were wrong because Prothane is not the same size as FTBR so trip to the parts store tomorrow and up she goes tomorrow or Tuesday evening. Also have to borrow a torque wrench from work that'll do 184ft lbs for the LCA bolts.

All the FTBR stuff fits like a GLOVE tho, those guys know their ****.
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Old 07-30-2017, 11:54 PM   #819
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Sorry to hear about your grandma!
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:17 PM   #820
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Been a long time coming honestly, she's finally just... failing. She's 97 in November.

Anyway, no hardware stores have more 10.9 bolts that I need so Fastenal order again. $8 shipping for 2 bolts lol. This damn IRS has taken up way too much time... also me not having the motivation to work on it for a long time... nothing like the military saying you have to be out of your house in December to motivate you tho lol.

Started to prep the motor and the front of the car in the meantime while I wait and touching up the bare metal spots on the roof since I have a friend from work who will vinyl wrap it for free since I already have the vinyl.
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Old 07-31-2017, 11:51 PM   #821
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Been a long time coming honestly, she's finally just... failing. She's 97 in November.

Anyway, no hardware stores have more 10.9 bolts that I need so Fastenal order again. $8 shipping for 2 bolts lol. This damn IRS has taken up way too much time... also me not having the motivation to work on it for a long time... nothing like the military saying you have to be out of your house in December to motivate you tho lol.

Started to prep the motor and the front of the car in the meantime while I wait and touching up the bare metal spots on the roof since I have a friend from work who will vinyl wrap it for free since I already have the vinyl.
Satin black wrap?
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Old 08-01-2017, 11:29 AM   #822
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Nah gloss. Not a fan of matte/satin. Got a good sheet of 3M vinyl from the evilbays.
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Old 08-01-2017, 06:52 PM   #823
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Well for power off boost lol. But it's all good. Also last part finally just got here...

Tomorrow... Omg...

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What is that odd looking part?
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Old 08-01-2017, 06:57 PM   #824
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Been a long time coming honestly, she's finally just... failing. She's 97 in November.
I guess that is exactly how it is supposed to happen when a person lives a good long life.
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Old 08-02-2017, 05:37 AM   #825
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What is that odd looking part?
Aftermarket aluminum rear diff mount for the IRS. Has an already clearanced Delrin bushing pre-installed. The OEM one had a prothane bushing in it from the previous owner but the jackass crossthreaded one of the welded on nuts so I just bought the better aftermarket one.

This whole IRS was just half assed honestly but its good now. Fully built minus the 99 spec axles but I won't be making near enough power for a 28 spline diff or those axles to be an issue. Plus no wheel hop=much more durable. Its the wheel hop and flex in the **** IRS rubber that kills these rears. That and the OEM rear cover will flex and literally break the mounting ear off without a brace or the upgraded FRPP one. There is no rubber at all in this one. Went with the IRS brace over the clearanced FRPP rear cover because it saved damn near $200.
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Old 08-06-2017, 07:22 PM   #826
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Am I the only one who feels that Scotty is going to have the car that we all just sit back and drool over? I know when it's done, it'll be one everybody wants.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:54 PM   #827
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Am I the only one who feels that Scotty is going to have the car that we all just sit back and drool over? I know when it's done, it'll be one everybody wants.
Nope. He is enjoying this build.
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:51 AM   #828
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Good motivation for me I guess lol. I'm just starting to get really worried I won't get it done. Then again, I officially am pushed back to leaving 2nd week in January so I have a little more time.

Need to get updated pics. IRS is hanging and car just needs a downjack and push back once I clean out the back of the garage. After that it is a "hopefully" simple engine swap. **** like wrapping the roof in black vinyl and any cosmetics etc... can wait.
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Old 08-13-2017, 06:37 PM   #829
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Almost done with IRS... grandmother in hospital plus outprocessing plus the surge going on at work... holy eff...

I will say that getting the IRS front subframe bolts in... holy ****ing ****... The whole thing is just one giant huge giant crank pain omgwtfbbqx1000.... BUT... now that I've done it once I could probably do it all again way faster.

Other thing is I am getting a LOT of advice from friends and family to sell this thing and get it off my plate... I dunno... just finishing up the IRS and literally being just an engine swap away... I dunno. Closer this thing gets the more its... looming...
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:25 PM   #830
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Best wishes to your Grandma.

Glad to hear the rear is almost finished.
As I said before, if this project is going to add too much stress at this point in your life, it is probably best to sell it and focus on the more important things.
I would still like to see you finish the car, and I thought that your original plan to keep working until the deadline was a good one. As that deadline grows closer, you need to reassess and decide if you are going to have enough time, with everything else that you have going on, to swap out the engines, and do the dozens of other "little" time consuming things.
Family should always come first. That should weigh heavily in whatever that you decide to do.
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:54 PM   #831
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Well...

For a fast as hell "one and done" shot on this thing I could always go back 2V, sell the Novi, sell all the 4V stuff and run it NA with some Cushmans. That's 100% plug and play. Literally a weekend to do it and then another weekend to hook everything back up. As long as my current heads are good I wouldn't even need to buy an engine, just swap them onto the Conti shortblock and roll with a higher compression NA engine.

Can always re-buy a new Novi later on or just do what I'd really prefer which would be a KB 2.1, they ship overseas and remote tunes are easy.

But... my deadline for having it at least started on a startup tune is Mid October.
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:34 PM   #832
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2.1 KB for sale by me for $1500 same guy who wanted to trade. But I changed my mind


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Old 08-15-2017, 04:50 AM   #833
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For a whole kit? Damn...

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Old 08-15-2017, 05:43 AM   #834
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For a whole kit? Damn...

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He wanted to trade the whole kit.

But is only selling the blower/manifold throttle body


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Old 08-15-2017, 06:54 AM   #835
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Yeah no brackets etc... figured at that price lol.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:47 AM   #836
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Well... between the C heads, mach intake, throttle cable/bracket, 4V specific stuff and the supercharger I have about $2500-$3k worth of stuff. Plus the car as a roller itself with a "built" up IRS is probably worth $2500-$3k.

Problem is for $6k its either a bone stock low mileage NPI car (which might be a good thing) or some higher mileage or ratted out 96+ 4V or New Edge. Would rather have a 34k mile car tbth lol.

I still have time. Only thing I need 4V wise to get the car running either blown or NA is the On3 coolant crossover for 4V. Easiest thing really since I have all the parts and a running engine is to continue with the 4V swap, all the 2V accessories are a direct bolt on and I have the 4V alternator. Besides lenghening the COP wires and a few pigtails its a direct drop in.

Just to be sure I'm not missing anything besides maybe random hardware I can get at Fastenal for the 4V swap I have:

4V Cops
4V Cobra/Mach timing cover
4V alternator
Mach intake
Stock termi throttle body
99/01 Cobra Throttle cable/bracket
4V manifolds
4V longblock with C heads

Car will go on the ground as soon as the Grade 10 nuts for the front IRS bolts arrive (don't ask) its already prepped for an easy pull of the 2V and the trans all in one piece...

To sell everything piecemeal is probably more work at this time than to continue on. Even if I don't get it running in time it'd still be easier to sell as a complete project so that is the route I am going I think.

Mainly did this post to get all my thoughts and list everything on paper. I really do believe the only thing I need besides a startup tune is the On3 crossover and from here on it is a 100% drop in.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:16 AM   #837
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Finally the hardware came in. Tonight its hook up shocks, springs in, fight the good fight that is the e-brake cables and hopefully have some pics for proof lol.


Also in case anyone is wanting to do an IRS, here is a real good thread I've been referencing. A lot of what is said about the brake lines and rear end width is for 94-98 cars tho, for 99-04 cars the brake lines are a direct swap. E brake cables I'll find out tonight but everything I've read is same as this post says it is.

Also apparently you do not need a new driveshaft, its tighter but the GT shaft fits, the rear DS flange needs to be swapped to the IRS flange but that's cake.

Cobra INDEPENDENT REAR SUSPENSION swap - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:24 PM   #838
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:43 PM   #839
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Yep just got home a little while ago. Dinner and a few drinks (long day) and then I need to torque 2 nuts to 146 and then its just springs, shocks, swaybar, e brake and down.
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:10 PM   #840
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Yep just got home a little while ago. Dinner and a few drinks (long day) and then I need to torque 2 nuts to 146 and then its just springs, shocks, swaybar, e brake and down.
That is a lot of progress. Keep on going. You're going to be driving that car in a couple of weeks.
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