Originally Posted by Thomas91169
^^^that just gave me a chubby.
so do you think that when GM finally switches over to OHC design they will lose the lead they had with the LSx series motors, plus if ford does do the above, might ford start to turn the tide in the naturally aspirated performance market?
Well, GM is already well-versed in DOHC (the Caddy Northstar and Olds mini-Northstar V8s) but as soon as Ford abandoned the smnallblock to crate/racing duty in favor of the small-bore modulars, there reall was no incentive for GM to move the only ral peformace car they had (the 'Vette) to the northstar when the highly refined LS1 could still be pushed a bit further.
But they know they're pushing the rod-angle/durability/cost tug-of-war to the limit as an NA motor -- that's why the upcoming rumored blue-devil/SS/StingRay [whatever they'll call it] will be forced-induction. The remec TR-6060 first built at Ford's behest exclusively for the GT500 will go into the new super-vette and the high first gear ratio (only slightly diff than the GT500) would seem to reinforce forced-indiction [likely turbo]. Since the bottom-end on the LS7 is already stout and using light/exotic parts, little else needs be done for more HP but add forced induction.
I'm not meaning to imply the 'vette and the mustang are to be considered in competing classes -- the 'vette will always be considerable more expensive and can afford a super-light aluminum/fiber/composite chassis (rumored to be down to 2950 lbs in the blue-devil for $100K+) and exotic components that the pony car price points can't embrace -- but from purely a trechnology point of view, the LS-series is effecively tapped-out as an NA motor without further impinging on reliability or emissions (or both), or even more substantial cost increases. Without the 'vette carring the R&D costs on the LS7, it would be virtually impossible, IMO, for GM to price a true hi-po Camaro (LS7 second year??) within reasonable pony-car price points. With some creative accounting for the 'Vette to carry most of the base R&D, it will be much
That's why I think Ford will similarly write much of the R&D for the new H/Boss primarily against the F-series for which the base motor is actually being developed. Done right, that can provide the mustang with the right bore-spacing and base technology to produce some impressive (HP/torque, efficiency, and suitability to further modification) naturally-aspirated variants in the future, e.g. DOHC 3v and 4V and forced-induction too -- and the right price points to compete effectively.
Assuming for a moment the H/Boss will employ much of the advanced tech of the new DOHC 3.5 V6 (as a technology model, not dimentionally) a 6.2L H/Boss should have little trouble producing 500HP naturally aspirated with emissions levels far superior
to the LS7. As an enthusiast we often forget the importance of this, but the reason for the existing mustang mix of V6/4.6 3V and 5.4 4V is largely driven by Federal CAFE standards. So, today, Ford has to force-feed the dealers more V6s than anyone wants, IMO, to meet overall CAFE. With a new H/Boss, done right, we could see the very first new-generation killer hi-po Ford motor that's cleaner than 95%+ of all cars being produced today. The 265HP 3.5 V6 meets PZEV -- "Patial Zero emissions" - an amazing technological accomplishment at that output level. Extrapolating to a 6.2 or 7.0 dohc H/Boss at 500+HP that meets the same standard would appear totally doable. That means Ford could conceivably make (if they choose to ramp production as we hope) as many such motors as the public cares to buy with little concern over CAFE/emissions (based on today's politics anyway) -- a nice position to be in when your competition has motors that are either big, dirty and archaic (DCX-'hemi' [which it's not]) or small, averagely dirty and at their NA-design-limits (GM smallblock).
Ford could easily have resurrected the old smallblock (5.0 'Boss') with electronics, forged and exotic goodies and, at significant expense, have a killer pushrod production motor like the LS7, but Federal legislation alone will force production retirement of such designs soon enough and even low volume production of such designs will polute(no pun intended) the overall ability to achiece model-CAFE. So Ford is doing (though financially painfull) the absolutely right thing, IMO, buy moving toward an all-new truly modern design, incorporating all the state of the art of what's been learned to actually get out in front of the cost/emissions/HP tug-of-war curve and putting it first in the F-series (where, right or wrong, the DCX [non-] 'hemi' is impinging on sales), and then using that solid base as the new hi-po base going forward in the mustang,etc ...at least that my opinion of what we're seeing and will see.
I applaud such thinking and resolve on Ford's part, especially right now while under intense financial pressures. That might mean we see the roll-out (H/Boss SOHC 2V -> 3V -> 4V and forced indiction) take a little longer than we might like (hope not) -- possibly not maturig until the 2012 ground-up re-engineered mustang platform that will likely be a bit lighter and capable of [conservatively] supporting 800-850HP production motors -- but being on the right base is ultimately far more important
given all the engineering, ever-changing political constraints AND
Btw, have you even noticed how GM likes to make the engine covers on the LS-series look like it's a DOHC
to the uintrained eye? I'm sure GM knows they're fooling no one except those who are clueless -- maybe that's precisely who they want
to influence -- there are a lot of GM folk who were miffed when GM abandoned the DOHC Northstar. Perception is a powerfull thing -- would not want those 'puny' LS pushrod valve covers being seen by the intentionally confused, would ya? <lol>
So no one misunderstands, the above is just this writer's take. I'm not in the automoive indistry but I've followed it for decades and one thing I've learned after decades of Fortune-500 company planning, strategy and management work is that what a company does is a function of who they are
and what their business demands
they do to compete. Their words
often offer little insight and tend to be strategically meaningless by design (or even specifically intended to spin/persuade/disuade, etc) and rarely provide the basis to interpret their true intentions.
But what I see developing as Ford trys to dig-out and undo the irresponsible cash-cow milking of Ford's assets by Jacques Nasser (likely for genuine reasons especially to look good to wall street investment) in the '90s, is very encouraging. Ford is one of the truly great Corporations our society has ever known. No company is perfect for sure, just as no individuals are, and Corporations, like individuals, have distinct personalities, e.g. conservative, agressive, predatory, clockwork, benevolent, supportive, etc The book "Built to Last" is an assessment of US business and the 20-30 US corporate jewels -- those that rise above purely a profit motive to become greater than the sum of their parts. Interestingly, you won't find GM, Chrysler, Exxon/Mobil, Pfizer on that list. You will find Ford, IBM, Procter& Gamble, Merck, etc. There are resons for that
So my little new years wish for Ford success is: believe in and never again forget who you are, believe in and trust the talent of your employees, and never underestimate your competition.