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Old 01-31-2016, 04:15 PM   #1
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Does the GT350 Lack Torque

The camaro is only about about 100lbs or so lighter than the GT350 yet has approx. the same or better 0-60; 1/4 mile numbers then the GT350. Why is that when the GT350 has 71 more HP? More than enough to make up for the a weight difference.

GT350 ($48,695 - $60,000)
0-60 in 4.1 seconds
1/4 Mile: 12.4 at 117.8 mph
Curb weight: 3791 lbs
526 HP/ 429 lb-ft

2016 Camaro SS ($47,480 Loaded)
0-60 in 3.9 to 4 seconds
1/4 mile: 12.3 sec @ 116 mph
Curb weight: 3,685 lbs
455 HP / 455 lb-ft
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Old 01-31-2016, 05:13 PM   #2
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Look at the dyno graphs .. the only engines Ford makes that have any decent amount of torque are the EB 6's.

The 5.0 and 5.2 are absolutely horrible at low end torque and the GM V8's excel at it.

For reference, the 2016 Camaro SS puts down more torque at just 1800 RPM than the 2016 Mustang GT makes at any RPM. As for the GT350 ... it makes peak torque at 4800 - 5000 RPM and only makes 373 torque at the wheels. The 2016 Camaro in contrast, makes more torque from 2300 - 5800 RPM than the GT350 makes at it's peak.

Torque is what moves the car. Horsepower is just torque x rpm / 5252.


Engine output is only one small factor in overall performance.. Gearing, suspension, weight transfer, traction and SEVERAL other things factor into 0 - 60 and 1/4 times and trap speeds.

Simple truth, Ford dropped the ball when it comes to performance with the S550. GM on the other hand, simply nailed it with the 6th gen Camaro.
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Old 01-31-2016, 05:46 PM   #3
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Thanks ish...was going to compare gears, etc but hard finding a lot of good info on the GT350.
Just dreaming about getting a Camaro. Almost got one back in 2011 when I got my Charger R/T AWD but that became my DD family car. I like the fact that the Camaros dropped a lot of weight. My charger is like 4400 lbs.
My problem is I only have room (comfortably) for 2 cars and I really don't want to get rid of my 3.7L Mustang. And have to keep my family car for kids car seats and such.
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Old 01-31-2016, 07:03 PM   #4
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One can never have too many toys. Add a Camaro to the line up and you'll have 3 American icons.👍


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Old 01-31-2016, 07:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish416 View Post
Look at the dyno graphs .. the only engines Ford makes that have any decent amount of torque are the EB 6's.

The 5.0 and 5.2 are absolutely horrible at low end torque and the GM V8's excel at it.

For reference, the 2016 Camaro SS puts down more torque at just 1800 RPM than the 2016 Mustang GT makes at any RPM. As for the GT350 ... it makes peak torque at 4800 - 5000 RPM and only makes 373 torque at the wheels. The 2016 Camaro in contrast, makes more torque from 2300 - 5800 RPM than the GT350 makes at it's peak.

Torque is what moves the car. Horsepower is just torque x rpm / 5252.


Engine output is only one small factor in overall performance.. Gearing, suspension, weight transfer, traction and SEVERAL other things factor into 0 - 60 and 1/4 times and trap speeds.

Simple truth, Ford dropped the ball when it comes to performance with the S550. GM on the other hand, simply nailed it with the 6th gen Camaro.
You'd also have thought they could figure out how the hell to make an interior that wasn't horrific. The exterior is not great either but its better than the S550 at least.
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:05 PM   #6
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Well the GT350 has a flat plane crank, and its designed for road racing. There is such a thing as too much torque when coming out of a corner. You want to be able to roll into power and not just spin out when exiting a corner, which is why it makes awesome top end power, but not crazy down low. Of course it won't be the best at drag racing.... Compare those 2 cars in corners and you will see different results.

Same with the 5.0, it is a far better road racing engine than drag racing believe it or not. But we all know 99% of Mustang owners only care about drag racing.
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:49 PM   #7
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One can never have too many toys. Add a Camaro to the line up and you'll have 3 American icons.👍


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i've gone too long to change things now. LOL
Never owned anything but American (names) and rear wheel drives.
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:10 PM   #8
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Well the GT350 has a flat plane crank, and its designed for road racing. There is such a thing as too much torque when coming out of a corner. You want to be able to roll into power and not just spin out when exiting a corner, which is why it makes awesome top end power, but not crazy down low. Of course it won't be the best at drag racing.... Compare those 2 cars in corners and you will see different results.

Same with the 5.0, it is a far better road racing engine than drag racing believe it or not. But we all know 99% of Mustang owners only care about drag racing.
In the corners, they perform the same (GT350), actually .. the 2016 Camaro generally posts slightly better cornering and braking numbers.

As far as the engines powerband .... no.

Go out on a track and drive a car that makes crap low end, average mid range and good top end, then go do it in a similar car that makes good power at every RPM. Smooth, tractable power is preferred by nearly everyone vs sharp, abrupt power with a very limited power band. Lap times will also show this, especially in a manual transmission car.
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:21 PM   #9
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In the corners, they perform the same (GT350), actually .. the 2016 Camaro generally posts slightly better cornering and braking numbers.

As far as the engines powerband .... no.

Go out on a track and drive a car that makes crap low end, average mid range and good top end, then go do it in a similar car that makes good power at every RPM. Smooth, tractable power is preferred by nearly everyone vs sharp, abrupt power with a very limited power band. Lap times will also show this, especially in a manual transmission car.
I have been at road course tracks many times, both as a driver and as a passenger. It isn't new to me. That is where gearing matters. My friend has a 14 5.0 with 3.73s and a full Cobra Jet set up tuned etc... making around 440whp. Even though its a 5.0 with "crap low end" he can still EASILY give it too much exiting a corner and spin out with 305 NT01 tires..... I know this because i was in the car with him when he gave a tiny bit too much and did a 180 at Sonoma Raceway. Which i have video of.

Unless you have an extreme amount of downforce on the back end to plant it to the ground, torque is not always your friend. Like the Viper ACR, the torque that car has works with it because it has some of the most amazing downforce on any production car. Which beat the Z06 BTW.
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:26 PM   #10
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First few minutes are warming up. Gets faster near the 2nd part of the video. 7:20 for the spin.
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Soccerluvr4 View Post
First few minutes are warming up. Gets faster near the 2nd part of the video. 7:20 for the spin.

Cool vid!!!! It looks like he was in 4th gear when he spun out?


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Old 01-31-2016, 09:48 PM   #12
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Looked at it again looks like 3rd


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Old 01-31-2016, 09:56 PM   #13
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I dunno it looks like a combination of him misjudging going into the turn and leaving the turn. It seems like the tire were slightly breaking lose going into it and him hitting the throttle. That's what it looks like from the vid but u know more than I cause u were there.


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Old 01-31-2016, 11:43 PM   #14
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Driver error.

You can easily hear the engine rev up at 7:29. He simply got on the gas too early coming out of the corner.

I would also say, from the sound of the car, that he was certainly above 3500 RPM.

That video just proves my point. Lack of torque requires short gearing. Short gearing with a peaky engine on a race track generally means snap over-steer mid corner when in the throttle.

Taller gearing with more low end torque would have allowed for the driver to be a gear higher, giving them more control over the throttle resulting in similar entry and exit speeds with more control.
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:11 AM   #15
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Does the GT350 Lack Torque

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Originally Posted by Ish416 View Post
Driver error.

You can easily hear the engine rev up at 7:29. He simply got on the gas too early coming out of the corner.

I would also say, from the sound of the car, that he was certainly above 3500 RPM.

That video just proves my point. Lack of torque requires short gearing. Short gearing with a peaky engine on a race track generally means snap over-steer mid corner when in the throttle.

Taller gearing with more low end torque would have allowed for the driver to be a gear higher, giving them more control over the throttle resulting in similar entry and exit speeds with more control.

It does not prove your point. Driver error? He pushed the car to its limit and past it. That's how you race and learn your car and the new tires on it. His car also has a bit of induced oversteer, that's more of a suspension issue.

And 3500rpm? Of course any car on a track is going to be above that lol. OHV, OHC. 4 banger or V8. The only reason a car would be below that is if it is saving gas. Even the Vettes I've seen at the track are higher revs than that. Maybe if you have **** tires.

Why else would there be professional racers that take the LS7 and destroke it so they can rev past 7500 for a long time more consistently? I'll give ya a hint. Easier to control.

Even with better low end torque, the car is going to be more responsive at the initial touch of the throttle at higher rpm.

I forgot that 50-150 is road course experience though.... You'd probably do good down the straight away. I'd love to hear about the times you've road raced.

So so so so so so so so so so so so so much different. There is only so much that can be learned without actually racing on a road course. I'd suggest doing it one day.


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Old 02-01-2016, 11:10 AM   #16
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You know it is funny that you are just comparing the Torque numbers for the Camaro, European Small V8, V10 and V12's have always been torque less. This is the reason I used to race the Imports up the 8-16% grade on the Haul Road with my 4 bolt main Cleveland in my 73 Cougar. Want to make a Lambo Guy cry, beat him in a Mercury
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Old 02-01-2016, 03:55 PM   #17
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There's a recent video with Randy Pobst. He drives the z28 and the gt350r and the 350r wins the battle even in it's torque-less state!
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Old 02-01-2016, 05:25 PM   #18
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Is it really any wonder that the Chevy engine has an advantage in the torque department?
With a litre more displacement???

I would expect the acceleration numbers to look exactly as they do.
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Old 02-01-2016, 08:34 PM   #19
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There's a recent video with Randy Pobst. He drives the z28 and the gt350r and the 350r wins the battle even in it's torque-less state!
They haven't come out with the 2016 Z28 yet.
But the OP was only addressing straight line quickness and wondering why the GT350 didn't do better with the big difference in HP.
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Old 02-01-2016, 08:42 PM   #20
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Gt350 = corner
GT500 = straight line speed
And Ford stated this was the intention
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Old 02-01-2016, 09:05 PM   #21
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There's a recent video with Randy Pobst. He drives the z28 and the gt350r and the 350r wins the battle even in it's torque-less state!
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Old 02-01-2016, 09:31 PM   #22
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Thank you
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:31 PM   #23
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Does the GT350 Lack Torque

Wonder what a Alpha Z/28 can do. Hopefully, Chevy will make it. Then we'll see what Ford's answer will be.


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Old 02-01-2016, 10:40 PM   #24
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Gt350 = corner
GT500 = straight line speed
And Ford stated this was the intention
Except the LT1 Camaro does both.

As much as a Mustang fan as I am, again... Ford dropped the ball on the S550... HARD.
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Old 02-02-2016, 10:00 PM   #25
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Except the LT1 Camaro does both.



As much as a Mustang fan as I am, again... Ford dropped the ball on the S550... HARD.

How so?


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Old 02-02-2016, 10:16 PM   #26
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How so?


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Trolling much?
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:39 PM   #27
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Does the GT350 Lack Torque

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Originally Posted by scottydsntknow View Post
Except the LT1 Camaro does both.



As much as a Mustang fan as I am, again... Ford dropped the ball on the S550... HARD.

Do hear an echo don't I.


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Old 02-03-2016, 08:41 PM   #28
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Trolling much?

I own an S550 and since you DON'T that makes you the TROLL.


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Old 02-03-2016, 09:08 PM   #29
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Good time to log out.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:59 PM   #30
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I own an S550 and since you DON'T that makes you the TROLL.


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I don't own one because I'm not paying $400-$500/mo for a Fusion looking Mustang that is slower than the competition. That is just my opinion on the looks granted... but its fug... sorry... The performance numbers are well documented. Getting heavier and slower than the previous generation S197... not exactly a good thing for the S550. Its doing great sales wise against better cars just like the 10-down Mustang did tho.
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Old 02-03-2016, 10:13 PM   #31
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Does the GT350 Lack Torque

3Vs and Condors FTW! 👌


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Old 02-03-2016, 10:20 PM   #32
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I don't own one because I'm not paying $400-$500/mo for a Fusion looking Mustang that is slower than the competition. That is just my opinion on the looks granted... but its fug... sorry... The performance numbers are well documented. Getting heavier and slower than the previous generation S197... not exactly a good thing for the S550. Its doing great sales wise against better cars just like the 10-down Mustang did tho.

Your opinion on the car is one thing but calling someone a troll that rarely visits the site and wants to contribute is BS. I don't give a damn how many times you repeat others comments, and you surely do, but it's easy to see in your posts and I find it boring. I'm guessing that if you could afford an S550 you'd be creaming your jeans over one. Hater, hating.


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Old 02-03-2016, 10:45 PM   #33
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Not hating at all. Just calling it like I see it. If I was going to spend nearly $40k on a new sports car the S550 would not be it that's for damn sure.

I'm glad some rando's opinion on the interwebs is getting you so spun up tho lol.

You do you. If you are happy more power to you.
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:07 PM   #34
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Does the GT350 Lack Torque

R/T Scat Pack for me!


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Old 02-03-2016, 11:09 PM   #35
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R/T Scat Pack for me!


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That would be my choice for a $40k new sports car as well.
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