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Old 04-01-2012, 11:39 PM   #1
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Avoid k&n type air filters!!!! Beware!

If you plan on having your car last 100-150k miles then DO NOT use a performance air filter. Only use paper filters. K&N type air filters breathe better meaning they dont filter as well and let more dirt and grime into the engine that can cause damage. The few extra hp is not worth the longevity of your engine!
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:23 AM   #2
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Re: Avoid k&n type air filters!!!! Beware!

+1...always heard about this. Theres no free lunch in nature, or engines. I remember those tornado vortex things that people uswd to put in their air intakes to save money on gas...lots of horror stories of those breaking sending metal fragments into the combustion chamber
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:29 AM   #3
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I've run my oil style filters for hundreds of thousands of miles and never had a problem. I clean them every other oil change and always inspect them for damage. Properly maintained they are just fine.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:08 AM   #4
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K&N filters are the best out there. Have you seen the amount of dirt &grime it collects over time ?? I don't believe a cheap paper filter can out filter the K&N. I had a K&N on my 94 GT @ 41k miles and used the same filter until I sold it @ 165k miles and ZERO issues.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:53 AM   #5
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Of course there are exceptions but even cleaning the filter every oil change doesnt mean you are safe. K&N air filters are the best PERFORMANCE air filters but not the best at filtering. The more a filter can breathe the more dirt and grime can get in your engine. A paper filter wont let near as much gunk through if any as long as they are changed regularly. Theres always exceptions but more engines have failed before 100k with K&N's than with paper filters where K&N was determined to be the causing factor of failure when the engine was taken apart and examined. Google it.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:39 AM   #6
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I never had problems with them. If that is true then cold air intakes filter would fail too what makes them so different
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:44 AM   #7
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So of course you have studies to back this up right? With that said I wouldn't run a k&n if it was given to me. There are much better flowing filters on the market
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:58 AM   #8
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K&N have a million mile warranty
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:00 AM   #9
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Google is not always the best source for fact finding. I'd like to see some side by side comparisons of filtration quality of paper vs. k&n. Somebody quick, wow me!
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:14 AM   #10
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Ever try sucking a golf ball through a straw? That's basically what a stock air cleaner does. I've had k&n for many years, on my mustang and my diesel. My diesel had one installed at 75k and still had the same one when I got rid of it with 145k on it with no problems.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:22 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by deadsp0t
K&N have a million mile warranty
Win
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:55 AM   #12
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Perfect example. If you try to suck a golf ball through a straw you will get a lot less dirt in your mouth vs using a bigger tube or nothing. Google is not always best for facts but when you see all the negative results not just from google but from thousands and thousands of other sites then there is no denying it. And cold air filters use a k&n type air filter so its the same. All are good for performance not longevity. People have 600+ hp blown motors but still use a paper air filter to keep their engine cleaner. If 10 hp is worth a dirtier engine for you then by all means a k&n is your route.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:01 AM   #13
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Perfect example. If you try to suck a golf ball through a straw you will get a lot less dirt in your mouth vs using a bigger tube or nothing. Google is not always best for facts but when you see all the negative results not just from google but from thousands and thousands of other sites then there is no denying it. And cold air filters use a k&n type air filter so its the same. All are good for performance not longevity. People have 600+ blown motors but still use a paper air filter to keep their engine cleaner. If 10 hp is worth a dirtier engine for you then by all means a k&n is your route.
Well you can keep using Napa's $2.99 filters and I'll trust my proven K&N filter all day everyday. Google can tell you anything your asking ... I could ask it if the world will end in 2012 and guess what .... IT WILL so I guess it doesn't matter what filter I'm running anyway. SMH
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:03 AM   #14
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Like i said. If its worth 10 hp to you then by all means its your engine
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:13 AM   #15
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Like i said. If its worth 10 hp to you then by all means its your engine
It's def not about 10 extra HP man ... I've got roughly 475hp already so that's not a issue. I use it because it lasts forever and works period.
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:33 PM   #16
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I'll put even money on it that almost of the guts who blame filters either are looking for something to blame, did not properly clean and oil their filter, or they installed a damaged filter. I've seen paper filters fail too so honestly it comes down to maintenance. You want to use paper, fine. Have fun. But telling us that our engines are going to fail because of them with nothing but your word and some google searches is hardly difinitive.
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:41 PM   #17
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A lot of motorcycles make more HP on the dyno with a paper filter. Larger engines are not as bothered by the 'trAsh' that comes through the filter. Smaller higher revving engines have much tighter tolerances.
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:59 PM   #18
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Re: Avoid k&n type air filters!!!! Beware!

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Originally Posted by SNK3BTE04 View Post
K&N filters are the best out there. Have you seen the amount of dirt &grime it collects over time ?? I don't believe a cheap paper filter can out filter the K&N. I had a K&N on my 94 GT @ 41k miles and used the same filter until I sold it @ 165k miles and ZERO issues.
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been using K&N filters forever on ALL Of my vehicles over the years , 0 issues
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:53 PM   #19
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I didnt say your engine will fail its just common sense. If a filter can breathe better then obviously it will not filter dirt as well. It doesnt even have to be proven its obvious thinking. Also the million mile warranty is for the filter only not for your engine.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by iwalkaline58
I didnt say your engine will fail its just common sense. If a filter can breathe better then obviously it will not filter dirt as well. It doesnt even have to be proven its obvious thinking. Also the million mile warranty is for the filter only not for your engine.
No, not obviously will it filter less contaminant. Not at all. Its a different filtration principal all together. a lack of depth of understanding into the technologies involved means you cannot assign "obvious thinking". Common sense is not the only factor involved when comparing all products. Apply commonsense to buying tires, or oil, or gas, or wax. The obvious choice for you won't be the same for some. But unless you show up with credibly backed, repeatable, documented scientific evidence it will be difficult to change anyones mind.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:08 PM   #21
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Re: Avoid k&n type air filters!!!! Beware!

people... people... people... stop giving iwalkaline58 such a hard time. He is just trying to help you guys keep your engines running for as long as possible.

He makes a very good point, however its not always true.

If a filter can breath easier, it sounds like it will let more more debris into your engine. The error in his logic is that that's not always the case. It's dependent on the size of the cross-sectional surface area of the holes in the filter all combined. So you think bigger holes->easier breathing->more hp/more dirt/debris. This can be true, but.... ever wonder why there's all those folds in the filters? Its to increase the surface area->more area to put holes->more breathing room. Get it?

So if you want the most breathing room, you have to calculate the surface area of the filter, and factor in the cross-sectional area of the holes. Now you can see the entire area of open space for air to pass freely.

I know I know its math and most people would rather rely on a "lifetime guarantee" and rely on someone else's word than being sure, but not me. It's a business and businesses will say what they have to to sell their product (not saying K&N is bad in anyway, I have a great respect for them).
But ya, get it now?

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by NickAP12589 View Post
people... people... people... stop giving iwalkaline58 such a hard time. He is just trying to help you guys keep your engines running for as long as possible.

He makes a very good point, however its not always true.

If a filter can breath easier, it sounds like it will let more more debris into your engine. The error in his logic is that that's not always the case. It's dependent on the size of the cross-sectional surface area of the holes in the filter all combined. So you think bigger holes->easier breathing->more hp/more dirt/debris. This can be true, but.... ever wonder why there's all those folds in the filters? Its to increase the surface area->more area to put holes->more breathing room. Get it?

So if you want the most breathing room, you have to calculate the surface area of the filter, and factor in the cross-sectional area of the holes. Now you can see the entire area of open space for air to pass freely.

I know I know its math and most people would rather rely on a "lifetime guarantee" and rely on someone else's word than being sure, but not me. It's a business and businesses will say what they have to to sell their product (not saying K&N is bad in anyway, I have a great respect for them).
But ya, get it now?
Forgot to mention: so really what you want is is the largest paper filter possible. And most of these CAI's are not only giving you additional HP due to the filter, The tube has a big part to play as well. Bigger tubing-> more airflow, but keep in mind, slower velocity(I won't get into that). Also, fewer bends->less spots to slow the air down and reduce velocity.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:06 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by NickAP12589
people... people... people... stop giving iwalkaline58 such a hard time. He is just trying to help you guys keep your engines running for as long as possible.

He makes a very good point, however its not always true.

If a filter can breath easier, it sounds like it will let more more debris into your engine. The error in his logic is that that's not always the case. It's dependent on the size of the cross-sectional surface area of the holes in the filter all combined. So you think bigger holes->easier breathing->more hp/more dirt/debris. This can be true, but.... ever wonder why there's all those folds in the filters? Its to increase the surface area->more area to put holes->more breathing room. Get it?

So if you want the most breathing room, you have to calculate the surface area of the filter, and factor in the cross-sectional area of the holes. Now you can see the entire area of open space for air to pass freely.

I know I know its math and most people would rather rely on a "lifetime guarantee" and rely on someone else's word than being sure, but not me. It's a business and businesses will say what they have to to sell their product (not saying K&N is bad in anyway, I have a great respect for them).
But ya, get it now?

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------



Forgot to mention: so really what you want is is the largest paper filter possible. And most of these CAI's are not only giving you additional HP due to the filter, The tube has a big part to play as well. Bigger tubing-> more airflow, but keep in mind, slower velocity(I won't get into that). Also, fewer bends->less spots to slow the air down and reduce velocity.
I would love to see your data on the SLIGHT bends in the tubing as well. Methinks the filter is by far the more restricting factor making the difference in tubing bends (Airaid, JLT, C&L, etc) negligible.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:14 AM   #23
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The filter is a big number but the bends does add to the number but remember what does a Cai add maybe 1 to 5 percent of HP to the car
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:07 AM   #24
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Simply put ..... Most important and first upgrades normally done is intake & exhaust ..... Why?? The needs to breathe in & breathe out to maximize its potential.

Factory intake= restrictive
Factory exhaust= no back pressure

Upgrade both = better performance DUH
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:14 AM   #25
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I'll bet my Ex Girlfriend could suck a golf ball through a straw! She's a dirty, dirty girl. I think I'll give her a call.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:21 AM   #26
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I'll bet my Ex Girlfriend could suck a golf ball through a straw! She's a dirty, dirty girl. I think I'll give her a call.
Lmaoo yo let me get them digits hahaha jkjk
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNK3BTE04
Simply put ..... Most important and first upgrades normally done is intake & exhaust ..... Why?? The needs to breathe in & breathe out to maximize its potential.

Factory intake= restrictive
Factory exhaust= no back pressure

Upgrade both = better performance DUH
Small but important detail/correction. Factory exhaust has lots of back pressure and aftermarket does not.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:09 AM   #28
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Re: Avoid k&n type air filters!!!! Beware!

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Originally Posted by illestdomer2005 View Post
I would love to see your data on the SLIGHT bends in the tubing as well. Methinks the filter is by far the more restricting factor making the difference in tubing bends (Airaid, JLT, C&L, etc) negligible.
Oh I am not saying there's going to be a noticeable difference at all. I'm just pointing out every little factor that plays into the equation. The filter is is the bottleneck for the stock intake, and then next is probably the MAF inner diameter, then intake manifold, then tubing size, then at the end the bends

---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 PM ----------

I have no problems with the CAI's, I plan to buy an Airaid later this summer
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:15 AM   #29
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Small but important detail/correction. Factory exhaust has lots of back pressure and aftermarket does not.
Lol damn it got it backwards.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:23 PM   #30
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Im not forcing anyone to take my advice im just trying to point put that all the good with k&n is just for performance. If you really want to take a risk then by all means do so. I could also say the same thing. Come to the table with proof a k&n filter can keep your engine just as clean as a paper filter.

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

Geez everybody wants to jump on me for trying to help my fellow mustangers keep a nice clean engine.. lol
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:33 PM   #31
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Well one way you can tell a difference would be check the oil.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:35 PM   #32
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Re: Avoid k&n type air filters!!!! Beware!

The only real way to find out is to have two engines driven in exact same conditions for same mileage then peel them apart and see how much crap/gunk/sludge is in there. Id assume alot of the particles that come through the intake should burn up in combustion chambers...but if you drive in alot of sandy dusty conditions then it could pose a problem. Its hard to blame one specific thing but if someone feels the paper filters let less crap in then who cares. Drivers who want that 1-5% hp gain will feel like it makes a huge difference but its just your mind justifying shelling out $ for performance upgrades. Do a 0-60 with your girifriend in passenger seat then do it again after the filter change...she wont notice.

With that said mustangs are muscle cars, and as muscle car enthusiasts thats in our nature to modify, upgrade, and enhance power. I have a great respect for k&n theyve been around a lot longer than ive been alive and anybody who can keep a car related business alive for decades should earn everyones respect. I plan on keeping my stang stock. Call me nuts but i paid all this money for it and it does and has everything i want. If i wanted 500hp id save up a little longer and get a 500hp car. The guy who enjoys tuning though....intake and exhaust are very important enhancements i guess.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:21 PM   #33
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Quote:
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The only real way to find out is to have two engines driven in exact same conditions for same mileage then peel them apart and see how much crap/gunk/sludge is in there. Id assume alot of the particles that come through the intake should burn up in combustion chambers...but if you drive in alot of sandy dusty conditions then it could pose a problem. Its hard to blame one specific thing but if someone feels the paper filters let less crap in then who cares. Drivers who want that 1-5% hp gain will feel like it makes a huge difference but its just your mind justifying shelling out $ for performance upgrades. Do a 0-60 with your girifriend in passenger seat then do it again after the filter change...she wont notice.

With that said mustangs are muscle cars, and as muscle car enthusiasts thats in our nature to modify, upgrade, and enhance power. I have a great respect for k&n theyve been around a lot longer than ive been alive and anybody who can keep a car related business alive for decades should earn everyones respect. I plan on keeping my stang stock. Call me nuts but i paid all this money for it and it does and has everything i want. If i wanted 500hp id save up a little longer and get a 500hp car. The guy who enjoys tuning though....intake and exhaust are very important enhancements i guess.
It's not just performance. It's also looks and sound. People like looking at that red/blue cone.

Keeping it stock definitely ensures your warranty.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:51 PM   #34
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I can see and argue both sides of this!.. But really the only way to tell which one is better is to do a complete side by side test!... Everything being the same minus what type of filter is being used on the two motors!..
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:54 AM   #35
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*Rob Levinson from UUC Motorwerks**says that "it is really doing every E34 owner a disservice for three reasons:
• First, conclusive tests from independent labs show that K&N filters, no matter how well-oiled and cleaned, let through huge amounts of large particulate that damages engines. Oil analysis shows 5x as much silicate contamination. Additionally, the oil from these filters tends to muck up the MAF and cause an engine-damaging lean-run condition.*
• Second, an open element filter like that sucks in hot underhood air and subjects the filter to "fan wash", the swirl that creates a vacuum effect. On the E36 M3, we measure a 15hp loss from open cone filters.*
• Third, the E34 airbox is designed with an integral velocity-stack style venturi at the opening. Running one of these engines on a dyno, you can cause a 5hp drop just from putting your finger on the stack lip. Removing that airbox undoes a lot of good BMW engineering. Yes, these filters make a "really cool" noise... but**noise does not equal power*. Stick with a stock paper element in the factory airbox, you're not getting any more power with a K&N garbage-filter, just damaging your motor."

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 AM ----------

http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Upgrade/Air_filter.htm

---------- Post added at 10:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 AM ----------

Even though thats a bmw it still shows testing and results. I keep trying to tell you people its common sense!
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