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Old 12-03-2012, 01:22 PM   #1
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drivetrain horsepower loss

anyone here know exactly how much on the 13' v6 auto?
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:15 PM   #2
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anyone here know exactly how much on the 13' v6 auto?
I think for auto its like 23%. So 300 HP - 231 whp. I think that's bout rite.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:38 PM   #3
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There have been some 3.7 V6 owners (and performance parts manufacturers) that have dyno'd their stock 3.7 V6 prior to testing their mods.

Contact any of the larger tuner manufacturers and ask them what the HP at the wheels are for a stock 3.7. Most have an email tech line you can send this question off to.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:31 PM   #4
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I think for auto its like 23%. So 300 HP - 231 whp. I think that's bout rite.
..................hopes its not true

---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

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There have been some 3.7 V6 owners (and performance parts manufacturers) that have dyno'd their stock 3.7 V6 prior to testing their mods.

Contact any of the larger tuner manufacturers and ask them what the HP at the wheels are for a stock 3.7. Most have an email tech line you can send this question off to.
great idea
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:33 PM   #5
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I know sounds like a lot. I read 23% for autos and 18% for standard. That's just what I've read so who knows.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:46 PM   #6
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The newer autos are a lot more efficient. I've heard that they've gotten it down to a hair under 20% loss on average. I think the manuals are around 15% too. A one piece aluminum driveshaft will free up a small amount of that horsepower too.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:52 PM   #7
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From what i gathered online, theres too much to take into consideration when calculating hp at wheels. A fixed percentage is not a good way to calculate drivetrain horsepower loss
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:59 PM   #8
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From what i gathered online, theres too much to take into consideration when calculating hp at wheels. A fixed percentage is not a good way to calculate drivetrain horsepower loss
This is true. The 20% and 15% that are talked about are averages.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:06 PM   #9
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its crazy! 305hp x 20% = 61hps loss
regardless, i was thinking about getting a cai and a bama tune.
how much hp can i regain from these two combo?
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by winkawak View Post
its crazy! 305hp x 20% = 61hps loss
regardless, i was thinking about getting a cai and a bama tune.
how much hp can i regain from these two combo?
15-20HP
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:28 PM   #11
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Now I know they have more power. They have what a older v8 has. I had an 02 v6 standard. It was rated at 190 hp I think but this 2012 feels alot more brutal as far as power
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:32 PM   #12
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just got off the phone with bama tune customer support. the hp at the wheel for a stock 13' v6 auto is 252hp/247 torque. with the tune and cai should add another 20-30hp. it kinda suck to find out its 50hp less than 305hp. just imagine if you can fully utilize the 305hp the car will be much faster......
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:56 PM   #13
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Yeah, but sadly there will be a car with 0% drivetrain loss haha.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:21 PM   #14
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Hmm, if the loss is because of the shaft and rear end, how about FWD and AWD?
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:23 PM   #15
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Hmm, if the loss is because of the shaft and rear end, how about FWD and AWD?
loss of hp come from alot more places than just shaft n rear end. awd losses more hp
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:02 PM   #16
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Those seem to be what most people do to free hp so I was assuming ass+u+me
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:50 AM   #17
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Most drivetrain loss for an auto is in the torque convertor. Unless its locked up, the fluid trying to mesh the engine and trans just eats away at the hp. Once it's locked up or you're considering a manual, it's all rotational mass and frictional drag on the rotating parts. Lighter driveshaft, flywheel, wheels, smaller brakes... all get the hp closer to crank. If these vehicles didn't have synthetic fluids to begin with, you could gain a couple hp just switching to synthetic. Pretty wild stuff.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:49 AM   #18
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So these cars are running at peak and its best to stick to what they come with fluid wise? My dad still is stuck in the 90's with this stuff
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:05 AM   #19
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newer cars do much better (compared to back in the day being 20+%)

what RWHP do they put out, just do the math and see where you are at. Then its either you make more HP than advertised or the efficiency is good

the 03/04 cobras lose 17-18% in the drive line and dynos about 360hp average so if you do the math thats much more than 390 at the flywheel
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:09 PM   #20
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Most drivetrain loss for an auto is in the torque convertor. Unless its locked up, the fluid trying to mesh the engine and trans just eats away at the hp. Once it's locked up or you're considering a manual, it's all rotational mass and frictional drag on the rotating parts. Lighter driveshaft, flywheel, wheels, smaller brakes... all get the hp closer to crank. If these vehicles didn't have synthetic fluids to begin with, you could gain a couple hp just switching to synthetic. Pretty wild stuff.
does the 13' v6 auto have a lockup torque converter?
if not where can i get one, how much more hp can i gain from that?
btw never heard of lockup torque converter for hp, usually tune, cai,driveshaft ...etc
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:51 PM   #21
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Oh, torque convertor lockup is a normal thing of modern electronic transmissions. They have a solenoid that will lockup the torque convertor in higher gears at cruising speeds. I'm not familiar enough with the 6 speed auto in the Mustangs, but the 4 speed 4t65e in my Grand Prix locks the torque convertor in 3rd and 4th gears. When it does, you see about a 3-400rpm drop since the torque convertor isn't slipping anymore and the engine/tranny are physically locked.

Now, for drag racing with prepped transmissions, there have been tunes in some cars that force lockup in certain setups to get faster speeds. An auto can shift faster than a manual, remove the drivetrain loss from torque convertor slippage and you have a faster setup.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguin
Oh, torque convertor lockup is a normal thing of modern electronic transmissions. They have a solenoid that will lockup the torque convertor in higher gears at cruising speeds. I'm not familiar enough with the 6 speed auto in the Mustangs, but the 4 speed 4t65e in my Grand Prix locks the torque convertor in 3rd and 4th gears. When it does, you see about a 3-400rpm drop since the torque convertor isn't slipping anymore and the engine/tranny are physically locked.

Now, for drag racing with prepped transmissions, there have been tunes in some cars that force lockup in certain setups to get faster speeds. An auto can shift faster than a manual, remove the drivetrain loss from torque convertor slippage and you have a faster setup.
Good info here.... I have herd that the guys with auto drag cars tear up there trans more often then the manual guys. Think there is any truth to that or just drag strip trash talk?
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:27 PM   #23
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I THOUGHT I saw 11/12/13 v6s were 270-280 whp, on some dyno sheets, butthat mist be incorrect. Does anyone have any results we can look at to see for fact?
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:31 PM   #24
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Well, the only source I know of right off is American Muscles V6 project car:
Stage 1 of our 2011 Mustang V6 Project - AmericanMuscle.com - YouTube

They got 260hp/241ftlb stock.

----

As for Auto vs Manuals breaking... It's like this: Automatics have more parts and more things to break.

A manual has some helical gears, bearings, shift forks, and syncros to help mesh them. Usually the synchros just wear if you abuse them. If you go too far, you'll chip some gears in them. Still not a huge deal to fix or repair and they hold up good unless you're beating them to death and don't know how to shift. Most of the MT82 issues are mainly due to crappy bearings and shift forks bending/flexing from the low quality parts Ford specified. Can't do much about the bearings expect replace them. You can minimize the shift fork flexing with the shifter mount to help make the shifts more precise.

Automatics... dear lord, the parts. Lets see... Shift bands and drums, clutch packs, accumulators, valve bodies with floating balls in them, and various solenoids to fill up the accumulators and force gear changes. Plus they have more bearings and seals because of all the extra parts. Since the clutch on them is inside, if you eat it up, the whole transmission gets to digest the clutch material and it will continually wear down internals like sandpaper. I'm not an expert on them, but I've seen all the work involved in assembling one and I might try it, if I had a real shop and could take my time (aka weeks) to slowly go through it and had all the tools. A manual transmission doesn't really intimidate me at all.

Oh, and one of the worst things you can do for an auto: put it in drive while still rolling backwards from reverse. Do yourself a favor and come to a full stop before shifting to drive off.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:47 PM   #25
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^ive talked to this guy before. He. He is legit and listen to him. Respect given sir
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:25 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Sanguin View Post
Well, the only source I know of right off is American Muscles V6 project car:
Stage 1 of our 2011 Mustang V6 Project - AmericanMuscle.com - YouTube

They got 260hp/241ftlb stock.

----

As for Auto vs Manuals breaking... It's like this: Automatics have more parts and more things to break.

A manual has some helical gears, bearings, shift forks, and syncros to help mesh them. Usually the synchros just wear if you abuse them. If you go too far, you'll chip some gears in them. Still not a huge deal to fix or repair and they hold up good unless you're beating them to death and don't know how to shift. Most of the MT82 issues are mainly due to crappy bearings and shift forks bending/flexing from the low quality parts Ford specified. Can't do much about the bearings expect replace them. You can minimize the shift fork flexing with the shifter mount to help make the shifts more precise.

Automatics... dear lord, the parts. Lets see... Shift bands and drums, clutch packs, accumulators, valve bodies with floating balls in them, and various solenoids to fill up the accumulators and force gear changes. Plus they have more bearings and seals because of all the extra parts. Since the clutch on them is inside, if you eat it up, the whole transmission gets to digest the clutch material and it will continually wear down internals like sandpaper. I'm not an expert on them, but I've seen all the work involved in assembling one and I might try it, if I had a real shop and could take my time (aka weeks) to slowly go through it and had all the tools. A manual transmission doesn't really intimidate me at all.

Oh, and one of the worst things you can do for an auto: put it in drive while still rolling backwards from reverse. Do yourself a favor and come to a full stop before shifting to drive off.
Thanks for the info....

I had one more question involving the BAMA tunes for the auto's. It is my understanding that the tune also effects the shift points in the trans amongst other things. Would it be posable to have a street tune with slightly faster gear changes and then a race tune that would have you chirping tires and shifting as fast as the manuals?

Thanks
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:43 PM   #27
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Yes. The line pressure commanded by the computer is what changes shift times. More pressure equals firmer, faster shifts. Its actually good for reducing clutch wear on the transmission. Of course other things wear more due to the shock of the quicker shift. Nothing is free.

On my Grand Prix, I can program it to shift at what throttle percent, speed, and rpm to allow hard, shorter shifts at full throttle compared to part. Im sure these trans can be tuned similarly.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:02 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Charlie_santos View Post

15-20HP
Some have seen as much as 30hp and 35 torque all out on curve with a good cai and bama tune

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 PM ----------

Quote:
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Most drivetrain loss for an auto is in the torque convertor. Unless its locked up, the fluid trying to mesh the engine and trans just eats away at the hp. Once it's locked up or you're considering a manual, it's all rotational mass and frictional drag on the rotating parts. Lighter driveshaft, flywheel, wheels, smaller brakes... all get the hp closer to crank. If these vehicles didn't have synthetic fluids to begin with, you could gain a couple hp just switching to synthetic. Pretty wild stuff.
I believe they have a blend of synthetic fluids. Ived heard some manuals are sent to have warranty work due to noises and grinds and the solution is changed to full synthetic and problem fixed. Also the oil used is not a total full synthetic you have to tell them to switch it to full when you have your free oil change. This is just from what ived heard which makes sense since ford would not cuff up extra cash on parts if not needing too....
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:28 PM   #29
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I'm talking about the differential/trans fluids, while the engine is part of the drivetrain, were discussing everything after that point that lowers its output. Mercon V for the autos is full synthetic. They have a few fluids they stick in the MT82, they're all full synthetic. Differential fluids I haven't checked, but since Ford says it's "for life" with no service period, that just screams synthetic too.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:04 AM   #30
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I'm talking about the differential/trans fluids, while the engine is part of the drivetrain, were discussing everything after that point that lowers its output. Mercon V for the autos is full synthetic. They have a few fluids they stick in the MT82, they're all full synthetic. Differential fluids I haven't checked, but since Ford says it's "for life" with no service period, that just screams synthetic too.
Just stating what other people had problems with the mt82 and it was fixed by doing a full synthetic trans fluid dont by a ford dealership. But my own opinion is I wouldn't belive its all full synthetic because they prefer the cheaper way.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:12 AM   #31
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They switched the fluid to a thinner viscosity because the switch over was mainly for people with notchy shifts in cold weather.

Most people that try to actually cure the problem go with BG Synchroshift or Redline fluid.
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