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Old 02-07-2013, 07:36 PM   #1
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Running better on 91octane

Anyone else feel the difference when going from 87-91 or even 93 with no tune.. My 13 v6 with borlas and cai sounds and pops louder. I also feel it a bit more responsive ... Anyone else???

I may be in the wrong section feel free to move thanks in advance
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:43 PM   #2
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I agree my 2012 seems to run better on 91 as well. Idk maybe its just me though
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:00 PM   #3
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90% placebo effect. The other 10% is denial about having wasted money. Pretty sure there's a number of threads around here with this discussion already. They always seem to pop up on every single car forum and have people on both sides claiming they're right. Of course one side is heavily weighted towards anecdotal evidence and the other side has actual evidence, but we'll ignore that.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:09 PM   #4
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Lol... Ive been thinking the same. But i do feel a bit more response but could be all in my head lol. Now as far as my exhaust popping more that's a fact... My wife even mentioned that the car sounded louder and she didn't know i had premium!!!
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:16 PM   #5
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The extra sound is probably from all the unburnt fuel flying around your catalytic converter :-p
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:18 PM   #6
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The extra sound is probably from all the unburnt fuel flying around your catalytic converter :-p
Well 91 does burn a bit more but i guess not enough since so much is passing through lol
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:29 PM   #7
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As stated by JimC, the car can and will advance timing to make use of the extra octane on a stock tune. It's all good.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:42 PM   #8
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As stated by JimC, the car can and will advance timing to make use of the extra octane on a stock tune. It's all good.
On the V6? Where'd he see that at?
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:57 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by forceflow2 View Post
On the V6? Where'd he see that at?
Thats common knowledge sir! The stock tunes can recalibrate the timing if better gas is put in. It takes acouple miles tho so it wont happen right away
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:55 AM   #10
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There is a gain, but is it worth the 25 to 30 cents more a gallon for daily driving?
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:56 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by forceflow2 View Post
90% placebo effect. The other 10% is denial about having wasted money. Pretty sure there's a number of threads around here with this discussion already. They always seem to pop up on every single car forum and have people on both sides claiming they're right. Of course one side is heavily weighted towards anecdotal evidence and the other side has actual evidence, but we'll ignore that.
Actually sir, I was aware of this false feeling. My dealer filled it with premium, I then used regular. It felt to just slide more in rpm before actually accelerating. The 91 plus works the best in mine for some reason. The 91 and 93 octane actually picked up the low end. The 93 didnt give me the miles per gallon though. Just 25 vs 33 with plus. 27 with regular. I filled up 2 tanks with each type of gas so I knew I had a full tank of that octane.

---------- Post added at 07:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 AM ----------

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There is a gain, but is it worth the 25 to 30 cents more a gallon for daily driving?
Because race car!
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:04 AM   #12
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Ok so i finally did quite a bit of research on similar engines and yes as Charlie mentioned it takes quite a few miles for the engine and computer to adjust timing.. And on the other hand its not worth the little bit it gives you for the price bucko .. Unless you tune!!!
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:08 AM   #13
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When we were testing the new intake manifold I had 93 octane in the tank because we wanted to test both stock and with tunes. We were surprised to see that on the stock tune the 2013 does adjust for the gas and we pulled higher numbers than expected. Almost as high as the 93 octane race tune.

I had loaded the stock tune before making the half hour drive to the shop.

Completely different from the 4.0 L V6 where you get no benefit running higher octane. It adjusts the same way the 5.0 does on the stock tune.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:16 AM   #14
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I tried some 93

I tried a couple of tankful's of 93 shell and seen no difference in how my car ran. The 87 octane seemed to work the same as the 93. The only difference I know of was the 93 octane cost a lot more.
My car does not have a Tune. My only Mod's are Magnaflow streets and a drop in K&N air filter.

My average Miles per gallon around town goosing it a lot and not trying to get good MPG stayed at 24.9 to 25.4 weather I use the 93 or 87 octane gas.

I think if you had the Bama tuner you would tune for the higher octane and feel a huge difference but if using a stock tune it is all in your imagination. All your doing is wasting $$$$.

As far as your engine recalibrating the timing to give more power when you put in high octane is misleading. What the "Knock Sensor" does is try to recalculate the timing if the octane is to low and it senses a spark knock.

What does a knock sensor do?In: Auto Parts and Repairs, Auto Body and Interiors [Edit categories]

Answer:It allows the engine to run with the ignition timing as far advanced as possible. The computer will continue to advance the timing until the knock sensor detects pinging. At that point the computer retards the ignition timing just enough for the pinging to stop.

A knock sensor assures that you're getting as much power and fuel economy as is possible from your engine.




knock sensor



The knock sensor responds to spark knock caused by Pre-detonation of the Air/Fuel mixture. As the flame front moves out from the spark plug ignition point, pressure waves in the chamber crash into the piston or cylinder walls resulting in a sound known as a knock or ping. This is caused by using a fuel with a low octane rating, overheating, or over advanced timing. Sometimes it can be caused by hot carbon deposits on the piston or cylinder head that raise compression. A knock sensor is comprised of Piezoelectric materials; Crystals that when impacted, generate a voltage (same idea as a BBQ ignitor). This voltage is monitored by the computer, and when an irregularity is detected, the computer corrects timing in VVT (variable valve timing) engines, or triggers a DTC Diagnostic Trouble Code) in older vehicles.


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Old 02-08-2013, 08:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC View Post
When we were testing the new intake manifold I had 93 octane in the tank because we wanted to test both stock and with tunes. We were surprised to see that on the stock tune the 2013 does adjust for the gas and we pulled higher numbers than expected. Almost as high as the 93 octane race tune.

I had loaded the stock tune before making the half hour drive to the shop.

Completely different from the 4.0 L V6 where you get no benefit running higher octane. It adjusts the same way the 5.0 does on the stock tune.
Yea i felt it but wasn't sure if it was in my head but the more i drove the more the throttle got more responsive off the line. I take it the new variable cam and plate do adjust well and the computer uses the extra power .. Sweet!!! Thanks for the inputs
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:05 AM   #16
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The 11-14 3.7 motor will adjust timing and be quicker. Research this and you will find out.
Is it worth the extra money, only at the track.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:08 AM   #17
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Here is another artical

Fuel Octane, Choosing The Wrong Octane Will Cost You
This is more of a clarifying post, rather than advice or tips. It’s about fuel octane, when to choose what octane for your vehicle, and what the wrong octane will do.

Why? Because I’ve heard so many people talk about how they ‘threw some high octane’ in their car ‘to get more performance’.

First the basics. What is the octane rating you see on every fuel pump everywhere?

Without getting technical and beyond the scope of this article, octane is a measure of gasoline’s anti-knocking properties. What is anti-knocking? Well, simply put knocking is a condition in which fuel burns too early in the combustion process, also called pre-detonation or pinging. It’s the instability of gasoline that causes it to burn prematurely and unstably. The higher the octane, the more stable the gasoline.

IMPORTANT: Higher octane gasoline, which is more stable, has no more energy potential than lower octane gasoline. There is no more energy to be had from high octane gasoline, then from low octane gasoline.
What octane gasoline should I be using in my car?

Use only what the owner’s manual specifies. If your car is designed to run on regular gasoline, or 87 octane. If your manual specifies higher octane fuel, such as 89, 91, or 93 use the closest octane rating available at your gas station without going below the specified rating in your manual.

What will happen if I use higher octane gas than I’m supposed to?

A few things. For one, you will be wasting a huge amount of money paying for high octane gasoline. Second, your car will not run correctly, whether you notice it or not. Higher octane fuel requires more heat and more precision to burn correctly. If your car is designed to burn 87, it will not burn 93 correctly. Third, your gas mileage will suffer. The inability of your engine to burn the higher octane gas correctly will cause your engine to produce less power and thus will require more fuel to perform at the same level.

What about using lower octane gasoline in a high octane engine?
In this situation, you will see negative effects that could be even worse. Using low octane fuel in a high octane engine will result in severely reduced performance because the engine will attempt to adjust to the lower octane gasoline. In extreme cases, or with prolonged use of low octane gasoline in these engines, pinging or pre-detonation can occur and can eventually destroy your engine. Pre-detonation causes very hot conditions in your engine and can melt sparkplug and pistons.

What fuel you use in your vehicle is important. Make sure you always follow the manufacturers recommendations. Using a fuel other than what the manufacturer specifies will in no way help you save money, gain power, or do anything other than cost you money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I say again: " Unless you retune for the higher octane you are not getting more horsepower just putting in high octane 93 in a stock tuned 3.7. All you are doing is wasting $$$$ you could be saving for your Bama tuner.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:17 AM   #18
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As stated by JimC, the car can and will advance timing to make use of the extra octane on a stock tune. It's all good.
+1
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:38 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by audioAl View Post
The 11-14 3.7 motor will adjust timing and be quicker. Research this and you will find out.
Is it worth the extra money, only at the track.
I have and, as I stated, there's anecdotal evidence, but no actual evidence. Even in this thread, that's all there is and people are taking it as fact. I'm not saying it doesn't, I may have just not found a source for the info where this is true, but people saying "it totally does because things were different than expected and I feel it's different" isn't evidence, it's conjecture.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:31 PM   #20
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I have and, as I stated, there's anecdotal evidence, but no actual evidence. Even in this thread, that's all there is and people are taking it as fact. I'm not saying it doesn't, I may have just not found a source for the info where this is true, but people saying "it totally does because things were different than expected and I feel it's different" isn't evidence, it's conjecture.
True..
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:00 PM   #21
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Ronnie and Forceflow - I would have agreed with both of you, and it is certainly true on the 4.0 that there is no benefit unless you tune for the higher octane. But, I saw it on the dyno with the 3.7. If you check on the 5.0 you will see that Ford says the 5.0 has 420 HP if you run premium - because the car recognizes the higher octane and adjusts for it.

Apparently so does the 3.7. More than anecdotal and "I feel it" type comments. I was testing the new intake manifold; the developer wanted a test with the car in bone stock configuration and then with tunes. So in order to do that I had to fill up with 93 octane - drive the car just over a half hour to the shop on the stock tune, and then do some pulls. We were shocked to see that the stock tune, running on 93 octane, showed gains almost on par with the 93 race tune.

You may have missed the posting of the dyno sheet for the pull with the car - running the stock tune and the stock air filter - buried in the thread about dyno results with an automatic:

Automatic 3.7 guys who have Dyno'd....come in

Look at post #6, it has my dyno sheet on the stock tune running 93 octane. It appears that the same technology that Ford uses for the 5.0 is also used on the 3.7; they just don't advertise it.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:14 PM   #22
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I have all the evidence I need because I get better gas mileage from higher octane gas. I also get better gas mileage from shell then say Walmart gas stations. I doubt you get more power without a tune. My cai and tuner should be here tonight. I'm excited!
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:29 PM   #23
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Maybe it was coincidence. Who knows
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:18 PM   #24
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Hi JimC

I would guess the Dyno results you got running stock using the 93 octane fill up would probably have been the same if you drove down just using the 87 octane.

As long as you feel the car runs much faster and better using the 93 it is fine with me. I'm sticking with the 87 octane because I don't feel any difference or get any better or worse MPG. I do save $$$$ on fill up's though.

We seem to have our different opinions on this subject so I guess we will never agree. It is not that important anyway because gas stations sell three different grades of gas so we can choose whatever we like. Me, I'm choosing the 87 octane and loving the savings.

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Old 02-08-2013, 05:31 PM   #25
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I would guess the Dyno results you got running stock using the 93 octane fill up would probably have been the same if you drove down just using the 87 octane.

As long as you feel the car runs much faster and better using the 93 it is fine with me. I'm sticking with the 87 octane because I don't feel any difference or get any better or worse MPG. I do save $$$$ on fill up's though.

We seem to have our different opinions on this subject so I guess we will never agree. It is not that important anyway because gas stations sell three different grades of gas so we can choose whatever we like. Me, I'm choosing the 87 octane and loving the savings.

Ronnie
I agree with Jim about the tune but i do also agree about the money your saving specially if its a dd .. And Jim they do advertise it but not for that reason they use it for mpg . Its their cam tuned gear working with the computer to adjust for better octane i believe. Car and driver also tested several cars with 87&91 multiple times and the results were positive proof that there is a difference but they also show that its minimal and won't change much without a proper tune.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JimC View Post
Ronnie and Forceflow - I would have agreed with both of you, and it is certainly true on the 4.0 that there is no benefit unless you tune for the higher octane. But, I saw it on the dyno with the 3.7. If you check on the 5.0 you will see that Ford says the 5.0 has 420 HP if you run premium - because the car recognizes the higher octane and adjusts for it.

Apparently so does the 3.7. More than anecdotal and "I feel it" type comments. I was testing the new intake manifold; the developer wanted a test with the car in bone stock configuration and then with tunes. So in order to do that I had to fill up with 93 octane - drive the car just over a half hour to the shop on the stock tune, and then do some pulls. We were shocked to see that the stock tune, running on 93 octane, showed gains almost on par with the 93 race tune.

You may have missed the posting of the dyno sheet for the pull with the car - running the stock tune and the stock air filter - buried in the thread about dyno results with an automatic:

Automatic 3.7 guys who have Dyno'd....come in

Look at post #6, it has my dyno sheet on the stock tune running 93 octane. It appears that the same technology that Ford uses for the 5.0 is also used on the 3.7; they just don't advertise it.
Your first paragraph is correct. Still reading but my 2012 booklet that has all the packages says 420 hp with premium fueling. Their manuals say 87 but due to the compression ratio and the status of ownin a GT, they run premium. I run plus/91 stock tune.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:40 PM   #27
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Certainly you should be able to get better performance with a tune and 93, but there is an increase with just running the 93. With back to back dyno passes on stock tune, 87 street tune from Bama, 93 street tune from Bama, and 93 race tune from Doug they were all very close. There was a 20 minute cool down between the pulls. (and we won't talk about the dismal results of the modified intake manifold)

Stock tune with 93 octane


Bama 87 street tune with 93 octane


Bama 93 street tune


Doug 93 race tune - this one has been the quickest on a consistent basis at the track, but we need to do more data logging to figure out the odd torque curve
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:08 PM   #28
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All I know is that when I use 87 octane for some reason the engine will bog down for a couple of seconds before returning to normal. Only does this with the 87 though
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:46 PM   #29
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Not sure the point of the dyno charts. You're claiming an increase over a baseline (87 octane with stock tune), but you don't even have that baseline. Sidenote: The scales jumping around aren't super helpful. There's an awful lot of specious reasoning being thrown around in this thread.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:39 PM   #30
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I'm just guessing on this

Run a quarter mile using 87 octane,
Then run a quarter mile using 93 octane.

The time will be the same. If the 93 octane run is faster you may have picked up about a millionth of a second. Or maybe not.

I'm talking Stock tune and not a custom tune. Do a tune for the 93 octane and things will certainly be different.

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Old 02-08-2013, 08:57 PM   #31
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I think what they are saying is yes, there is a number difference (hp) between 87 and 91 but it is very minimal. It may only be a few HP but the numbers will be different. I personally do feel a difference but its not so much a HP feeling rather than a better throttle response feeling. Let's face it we are not going to feel 5 or 6 HP increase on a 305 HP car. Where I live on thursdays 91 is the same price as 89 so I will fill up every of week with it.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:07 PM   #32
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Here is another one

Read this one:>>Mythbusting Octane, The Truth About Gasoline

There are many,many articles on how an engine built for 87 octane has no benefit using 91 or 93 octane but I can't find a single one that say's using a higher octane will give an engine more power unless it is re-tuned to use the higher octane gas.

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Old 02-09-2013, 01:41 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ronnie948 View Post
Read this one:>>Mythbusting Octane, The Truth About Gasoline

There are many,many articles on how an engine built for 87 octane has no benefit using 91 or 93 octane but I can't find a single one that say's using a higher octane will give an engine more power unless it is re-tuned to use the higher octane gas.

Ronnie
Perhaps those cars are cars without Variable Timing. In the old days running premium vs regular was a matter of how you set your timing. Today these cars do it for you. But I too would rather save money.
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:59 AM   #34
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Yeah, midnight is right. New technology. We also don't have to change our oil every 3k miles anymore. The throttle response is better. Or at least feels like it.
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:22 AM   #35
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Posts: 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight2012 View Post

Perhaps those cars are cars without Variable Timing. In the old days running premium vs regular was a matter of how you set your timing. Today these cars do it for you. But I too would rather save money.
+1 The 3.7 can advance its timing up to 60 degrees. Can someone please tell me how to add a link to my post Like how Ronnie did!? I have no idea how to do it! Lol
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