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Old 02-19-2013, 04:24 PM   #36
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I warm it up for about 10-15 minutes when its below freezing because I can feel how sluggish shifting is if I don't and the weak link in these cars is the tranny so I don't want to cause any issues. If I'm in a rush, though, I drive and shift slowly, as many have said.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:29 PM   #37
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What in the world is "Excessive Idle"? And how does this hurt your engine?
Think police or taxi idling, that is excessive idling; not warming up a car. But all that did from what I recall is it made you change the oil sooner to get rid of the excess aromatic hydrocarbons that could get in the crankcase from it.
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:39 PM   #38
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I think we need to clear up what we mean time w wise when we're letting out cars warm up. For me it is until the idle goes down to normal, or if it is exceptionally cold, 1-2 minutes while I scrape the windows. I don't think that is "excessive idling."
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:56 PM   #39
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I think we need to clear up what we mean time w wise when we're letting out cars warm up. For me it is until the idle goes down to normal, or if it is exceptionally cold, 1-2 minutes while I scrape the windows. I don't think that is "excessive idling."
+1 thankfully my baby sits inside a garage. I don't consider that idling heck mine idles 1-2 minutes because I don't have a clicker
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:30 PM   #40
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I have hydraulic lifters in my 5.0 (pushrod) so I let them idle and warm up for at least 30 seconds in near freezing weather. Now all that info previously said matters for new UNMODIFIED cars. Now if I changed to solid lifters, the lifters themselves would no longer be powered by oil. Which therefor wouldn't require much of a warm up time.

Bottom line is this. 30 seconds is a VERY cheap peace of mind as if your idling at 800 rpms, that's 400 cycles of the oil pump (on my car anyway) which is enough to completely oil the valve-train.

And yes, after sitting for about 8 hours, I can personally guarantee that hydraulic lifters drain all the oil out of their built in reservoirs.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:45 PM   #41
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There is nothing wrong waiting for the High Idle to go Low Idle in moderate temps; and in real cold temps, nothing wrong with letting the warm up for 3-7 min to clear your windows, your forged V6 rods, your aluminium and all the other parts that expand/contract differently in very cold weather.

Unless your in police/taxi duty you are not excessively idling. Cars in Manhattan sit longer idling than in a 5 degree Midwest winter warm up.

2013 specs:
Pistons Cast-aluminum
Connecting rods Forged

Stuff that needs good oil flowing for upper lubrication:
DOHC, four valves per cylinder, twin independent
variable camshaft timing (Ti-VCT)

And lots of plastic fit parts that get brittle in cold weather. Let the green folks tell you to not warm up and feel warm and fuzzy.

Edit: PS, even the factory has to "talk" the green talk and have been told to say things for green reasons that are not "exactly" but "might be" true. Talk to a few forced retired Detroit engineers from the last reduction from the work roles.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:49 AM   #42
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That's correct...there's nothing wrong with letting the high idle go to low idle before driving off.

It's just not needed in todays cars.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:48 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by rickyschulze View Post
So always start up my car when it's cold (im talking cold!) and leave it running for a few minutes because that's what my dad always told me was good for the engine, my girlfriend says its not necessary because she read articles on consumers report which is a valid source and I've read them too. But on here I recall seeing some posts about warming up the engine being good, so what do you guys do? Or think?
Here's my opinion... An engine is an engine no matter if it's a street or race engine. Take this to heart do you ever see a racer take a cold engine on the track and race with it? It's your car and engine do what you think is best... Myself I give the engine time to get the oil cycled threw it and the idle to settle down.

Years ago I owned a 600 ninja motorcycle and the owners manual stated to wait till the operating temperature reached 110* F before operating the bike. This from a manufacture itself. Now who you going to believe a bunch of journalist or the manufacture of engines. An engine is an engine. But, it yours if you want to take the chance and cause premature wear on your motor. By all mean go right ahead it's not my money that will fix it 5,6,7,or more years from now!!!
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:42 PM   #44
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If you plan to pull out of your driveway and do screaming donuts out into the street, then yes, allow the oil to warm up for about 45 seconds. Me, I start the car, place it in reverse, and drive down my neighborhood. By the time I reach the outside of my 'hood, the temp needle has reached the lefthand mark. It does not take long for the oil to heat; remember, your thermostat is closed, so the oil reaches temp very quickly, as the heat of combustion is instant, and the oil is flowing as soon as the engine is started. race cars (I'll assume you are refering to NASCAR) are screaming the engines at 8000 RPM or higher....are you?

I've been doing this for some time now with the fuel injected engines and 5w-20 oil. My engines always had well over 150 to 230K on their odometer before they were traded in. If it's extreemly cold where you are, consider a block heater; most cars sold in the frozen tundra of the north come with them, or are installed by the dealership.

However, it's your car, let it idle for as long as you want. Just stay out of most European countries when you do this, as you'll earn a ticket. And they have some harsh winters!
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:50 PM   #45
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More food for thought from the experts (see this link):
Do You Need to Warm Up Your Car? - Ask Our Experts Blog

Although you might think warming up your car is best on a cold morning, doing so is a bad idea, and not just because it wastes gas.

Cold engines typically want a rich (more fuel) mixture to run well. More than likely, your car uses electronic fuel injection. If your car’s engine is cold, sensors relay that information to a computer, which signals the fuel injectors to stay open longer, allowing more fuel into the engine to help it run while cold. As the engine warms up, the computer signals the injectors to let in less fuel and everything returns to normal, so to speak. Importantly, the faster your engine warms up, the quicker it assumes its most efficient level of operation.

The problem is, letting your car sit and idle is the slowest way to bring it up to operating temperature because it’s generally sitting in your drive at just above idle speed. And this method of warming up also invites other problems. Modern cars are equipped with a multitude of devices to help them run clean and efficiently, including a catalytic converter (sometimes three of them), a device in the exhaust system that works to oxidize unburned hydrocarbons and reduce carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxide levels in the exhaust stream. A cold engine emits a far higher percentage of unburned hydrocarbons and much higher carbon monoxide levels than a warm engine.
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:21 PM   #46
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If you plan to pull out of your driveway and do screaming donuts out into the street, then yes, allow the oil to warm up for about 45 seconds. Me, I start the car, place it in reverse, and drive down my neighborhood. By the time I reach the outside of my 'hood, the temp needle has reached the lefthand mark. It does not take long for the oil to heat; remember, your thermostat is closed, so the oil reaches temp very quickly, as the heat of combustion is instant, and the oil is flowing as soon as the engine is started. race cars!
Humm... I have a 2013 with the oil temp gauge. It takes about 5mins of slow driving to get to the normal range out of the white in about 39-40 degree weather. It took about 12mins in 25 degree weather this past Sunday as I drove it from the rent a barn to my house to be ready to take it to the dealer last Monday. The Rent a Barn is not heated so the engine was cold as the outside in a driveway storage.

I guess your reading the cylinder head gauge?

---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:20 PM ----------

Quote:
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More food for thought from the experts (see this link):
Do You Need to Warm Up Your Car? - Ask Our Experts Blog
Hi Bukco, you do know that set of experts in the 70s told you how to best grow hemp
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:46 PM   #47
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Sure....but I'm still here today! And this is only one group. Google "is it required to warm an engine....." You'll see plenty of "not needed"

Excessive warming of the engine (over time) can cause premature failure of the catalytic converters too. They get hot with all the raw fuel from cold idle. It is actually quicker to warm an engine if you get the speeds above idle; not screaming, but an easy drive out of the street.
I'd think in your case, if an average drive down the street does not get the fluid temps up, then idling would be even worse (time wise).
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:06 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by bucko View Post
Sure....but I'm still here today! And this is only one group. Google "is it required to warm an engine....." You'll see plenty of "not needed"

Excessive warming of the engine (over time) can cause premature failure of the catalytic converters too. They get hot with all the raw fuel from cold idle. It is actually quicker to warm an engine if you get the speeds above idle; not screaming, but an easy drive out of the street.
I'd think in your case, if an average drive down the street does not get the fluid temps up, then idling would be even worse (time wise).
Here is what Tom and Ray have to say:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/do-ca...inter-mornings
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:43 PM   #49
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But with modern cars, all you're doing with a long warm-up is
wasting gas, increasing pollution, raising the temperature of the
planet and making yourself 10 minutes late for your chiropractic
appointment
The problem is this is our modern green indoctrination, note the key words; and those car folks will play the line as well, or lose their show. Newer CATs wont get damaged from warming up your car in the winter, older ones did but it took till about 180K for me to see it on a '96 Sonomia V6. Didn't happen at all on my 2000 S10. This is the reason why manufactures sell remote starts, so you can warm it up in our cold Midwest winters

Use your Oil Temp gauge and see how long you need to drive slow before oil is at even the lowest end of the normal section.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:16 PM   #50
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Go ahead and start your car and throw it in gear before the oil has reached the top of the engine where a lot if vital components are in motion. Putting them under more stress than just idling is your choice just as letting mine run enough to get oil threw the engine and letting idle settle down is mine. I'll take the extra minute before I leave my driveway. What I guess i'm wasting a spoon full of gas if that... Whatever!!!

I want to see a side by side test between two identical cars. One started and put into gear and driven right away the other left to warm up until the idle is settled down. Both driven the same for 100,000 miles and see which one has more wear and tear in it. If there was such a credible study please someone copy and paste a link. I want to see if the spoon full of gas needs to be saved. I live in up state NY where winters are 4 months long and half those months low temps are below 20 degrees.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:31 PM   #51
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Since I dd my jeep currently with a soft top I tend o go out and start it up and let it run for 5 mjnutes or so to let it get warmed up. I know 5 mjnutes is a little excessive but 20 degrees with a soft top is chilly even letting it run for 5 mjnutes.

I miss having my diesel, plug it in overnight and when I go out to start it I already have instant heat lol.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:37 PM   #52
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I run my silverado with remote start 15 minutes early.. Mostly because I'm lazy and I want the heated seats to warm up and the heater to reach a nice 74 degrees lol
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:45 PM   #53
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I took mine in for an A/C problem they couldn't duplicate. Said they let it idle in the stall for an hour.

My response " You F'n did what?
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:59 PM   #54
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I want to see a side by side test between two identical cars. One started and put into gear and driven right away the other left to warm up until the idle is settled down. Both driven the same for 100,000 miles and see which one has more wear and tear in it. If there was such a credible study please someone copy and paste a link. I want to see if the spoon full of gas needs to be saved. I live in up state NY where winters are 4 months long and half those months low temps are below 20 degrees.
+1

And yes, the others above point out the reason for remote starts being made. Sorry about the green issues, but this is so small change it doesn't even matter compared to the power plants burning NatGas and/or coal to charge up plug in electric cars. That fraud just increases energy transfer inefficiencies and moves the carbon footprint from the tailpipe to the smokestack.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:58 PM   #55
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I would LOVE to see a person in Europe get a ticket in the morning because they let their car warm up for a quick minute. I just wouldn't happen. Ever. There aren't cops just sitting in front of houses, waiting for the resident to leave. It's ridiculous to think that. Now in parking lots it might happen, but even then I think it would have to be in excess of 3-5 minutes, and I don't care what the "law" says it just would not happen.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:40 AM   #56
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The problem is this is our modern green indoctrination, note the key words; and those car folks will play the line as well, or lose their show. Newer CATs wont get damaged from warming up your car in the winter, older ones did but it took till about 180K for me to see it on a '96 Sonomia V6. Didn't happen at all on my 2000 S10. This is the reason why manufactures sell remote starts, so you can warm it up in our cold Midwest winters

Use your Oil Temp gauge and see how long you need to drive slow before oil is at even the lowest end of the normal section.
Remote starts are sold to allow a person to warm their car for heat inside the cabin, as the engine no longer requires a warmup!

---------- Post added at 06:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 AM ----------

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Go ahead and start your car and throw it in gear before the oil has reached the top of the engine where a lot if vital components are in motion. Putting them under more stress than just idling is your choice just as letting mine run enough to get oil threw the engine and letting idle settle down is mine. I'll take the extra minute before I leave my driveway. What I guess i'm wasting a spoon full of gas if that... Whatever!!!

I want to see a side by side test between two identical cars. One started and put into gear and driven right away the other left to warm up until the idle is settled down. Both driven the same for 100,000 miles and see which one has more wear and tear in it. If there was such a credible study please someone copy and paste a link. I want to see if the spoon full of gas needs to be saved. I live in up state NY where winters are 4 months long and half those months low temps are below 20 degrees.
Wow, If your engine oil pump is not providing oil pressure within a second or two to provide oil to the top of the engine, get it in for service replacement!
And it's not gas thats being wasted, but simply the unneeded rich mixture of raw fuel during a long idle. As stated, driving carefully above idle will warm an engine much better then simply idling for minutes.

It's your car, your paying for it, do with it what you like. there have been facts presented, and opinions made. I'm one for facts over myths, so I start, drive out of my nieghborhood; buy the time I reach the first major road (about a minute of 25 MPH driving), my vehicle is plenty up to good operating temps, without requiring any long idle warmup that's not really doing any good.

And all my vehicles have hit well ofer the 150K range before they are ready for trade-in. My 2011 Mustang will be the next to reach this milestone.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:50 AM   #57
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Really? Who gives a rats ***..? Debating this is a bigger waste of time then 'excessive idling time'
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:04 AM   #58
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I would LOVE to see a person in Europe get a ticket in the morning because they let their car warm up for a quick minute. I just wouldn't happen. Ever. There aren't cops just sitting in front of houses, waiting for the resident to leave. It's ridiculous to think that. Now in parking lots it might happen, but even then I think it would have to be in excess of 3-5 minutes, and I don't care what the "law" says it just would not happen.
You're wrong. I know this first hand. I started my rental Mercedes one morning back in 2004 to defrost the windshield one cold morning. As the engine was running, I was scraping the frost off the windshield.

Along came a German police officer, who promptly wrote me a $150.00 Euro dollar ticket for allowing my engine to idle. My jaw dropped, but it is and still is the law.

The newer Mercedes and BMW's now have the feature where the engine cuts off after approx 20 seconds of idle. As soon as you press the 'drive by wire" pedal (formorly known as a gas pedal), the engine restarts. There is an override button to disable, or you have your A/C on. It's on my wifes 2013 BMW.

Read, get the facts before you say "it won't happen". Its true.[COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added at 07:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------

---------- Post added at 07:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 AM ----------

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Really? Who gives a rats ***..? Debating this is a bigger waste of time then 'excessive idling time'
Simply trying to help eliminate the myths. Since a moderator thinks that's a waste of time, then I'm done.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:45 AM   #59
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You're wrong. I know this first hand. I started my rental Mercedes one morning back in 2004 to defrost the windshield one cold morning. As the engine was running, I was scraping the frost off the windshield.

Along came a German police officer, who promptly wrote me a $150.00 Euro dollar ticket for allowing my engine to idle. My jaw dropped, but it is and still is the law.

The newer Mercedes and BMW's now have the feature where the engine cuts off after approx 20 seconds of idle. As soon as you press the 'drive by wire" pedal (formorly known as a gas pedal), the engine restarts. There is an override button to disable, or you have your A/C on. It's on my wifes 2013 BMW.

Read, get the facts before you say "it won't happen". Its true.

---------- Post added at 07:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------

---------- Post added at 07:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 AM ----------

Simply trying to help eliminate the myths. Since a moderator thinks that's a waste of time, then I'm done.
Maybe look up the definition of my title.. I'm retired..
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:11 AM   #60
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You're wrong. I know this first hand. I started my rental Mercedes one morning back in 2004 to defrost the windshield one cold morning. As the engine was running, I was scraping the frost off the windshield.

Along came a German police officer, who promptly wrote me a $150.00 Euro dollar ticket for allowing my engine to idle. My jaw dropped, but it is and still is the law.

The newer Mercedes and BMW's now have the feature where the engine cuts off after approx 20 seconds of idle. As soon as you press the 'drive by wire" pedal (formorly known as a gas pedal), the engine restarts. There is an override button to disable, or you have your A/C on. It's on my wifes 2013 BMW.

Read, get the facts before you say "it won't happen". Its true.

---------- Post added at 07:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------

---------- Post added at 07:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 AM ----------

Simply trying to help eliminate the myths. Since a moderator thinks that's a waste of time, then I'm done.
I'm beginning to find you can't fight the myths with people. Better to educate myself and let others wallow in their own misery.
That being said I too try any way.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:51 AM   #61
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Can anybody here tell me what heat does to metal?

If you guessed expand then your correct. And when the metal expands in your engine, be it namely the rings, it provides a better seal.

Now what does cold do to metal?

The opposite which is contract. And metal gets slightly brittle upon getting cold. So while 10 cold starts and immediately driving won't hurt anything... What about a 1000 or 10000 starts?

So what happens if a valve spring gets brittle and breaks?

I'll leave that to you guys.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:03 AM   #62
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Can anybody here tell me what heat does to metal?

If you guessed expand then your correct. And when the metal expands in your engine, be it namely the rings, it provides a better seal.

Now what does cold do to metal?

The opposite which is contract. And metal gets slightly brittle upon getting cold. So while 10 cold starts and immediately driving won't hurt anything... What about a 1000 or 10000 starts?

So what happens if a valve spring gets brittle and breaks?

I'll leave that to you guys.
So the sooner your car is warm, the better. I think a short time to let the idle come down, and some conservative driving to reach operating temperature would heat up the vehicle much quicker than sitting at idle.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:06 AM   #63
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So is it BAD to let it idle? It was icy and 5 degrees so I had my truck running with remote start for 30 minutes to blast the ice off...
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:22 AM   #64
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So is it BAD to let it idle? It was icy and 5 degrees so I had my truck running with remote start for 30 minutes to blast the ice off...
Seems to be a good argument on both sides. We all do things that are not good for our cars. Burnouts, track time, let them warm up because -20 is to damn cold to be scraping windows. I say keep up the general maintenance, and don't get obsessive with these things and your car will be just fine. Engineers have had plenty of years to make motors reliable, no matter how we treat them.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:24 AM   #65
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So the sooner your car is warm, the better. I think a short time to let the idle come down, and some conservative driving to reach operating temperature would heat up the vehicle much quicker than sitting at idle.
That's correct as long as its not overheated lol. Within 30 seconds, the shortblock will and should be warm enough to where it won't be a problem. The coolant won't show a temp difference and its likely the oil won't either but the metal itself should warm enough... Don't believe me? Touch your exhaust or better yet, touch your headers... You'll find that it's warm
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:55 AM   #66
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Can anybody here tell me what heat does to metal?

If you guessed expand then your correct. And when the metal expands in your engine, be it namely the rings, it provides a better seal.

Now what does cold do to metal?

The opposite which is contract. And metal gets slightly brittle upon getting cold. So while 10 cold starts and immediately driving won't hurt anything... What about a 1000 or 10000 starts?

So what happens if a valve spring gets brittle and breaks?

I'll leave that to you guys.
You are correct with your expanding and contracting. However, what is being discussed here is what would be a more efficient way to warm an engine. Idling at a set RPM for a period of time, at least in most of the links that have been offered here for reading is not considered, nor is it required, to warm an engine up. A steady off idle drive is the more idealistic way to do it.

Again, it's a discussion. I'm not attempting to change anyones mind. I'll continue to do what I believe is correct. Others can follow with their beliefs. And others? They seem not to give a rats ***. It shall be written, it shall be done.

And if my valve springs get brittle and break, I'll take it in for warranty. I have a 100K engine drive train warranty. I bought used, and it came with this (certified pre-owned). Although, I've yet to have this happen to me...I guess I'm doing something right?
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:03 AM   #67
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You are correct with your expanding and contracting. However, what is being discussed here is what would be a more efficient way to warm an engine. Idling at a set RPM for a period of time, at least in most of the links that have been offered here for reading is not considered, nor is it required, to warm an engine up. A steady off idle drive is the more idealistic way to do it.

Again, it's a discussion. I'm not attempting to change anyones mind. I'll continue to do what I believe is correct. Others can follow with their beliefs. And others? They seem not to give a rats ***. It shall be written, it shall be done.
Well the main problem is that the previous posters on here seem to take that coolant and oil temp is the same as the actual engine temp ( the metal temp ) so while yes, idling for 5-10 minutes is not going to warm up the coolant and oil temps as fast as when the engine is under load.

Like I previously mentioned, idling for about 30 seconds to a minute will get the job done.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:04 AM   #68
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Maybe look up the definition of my title.. I'm retired..
Congrats on the retirement...I hope to be there soon, only in my real job....

I still moderate for a great F150 site. Enjoy that. Enjoy good topics.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:05 AM   #69
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:You are correct with your expanding and contracting. However, what is being discussed here is what would be a more efficient way to warm an engine. Idling at a set RPM for a period of time, at least in most of the links that have been offered here for reading is not considered, nor is it required, to warm an engine up. A steady off idle drive is the more idealistic way to do it.

Again, it's a discussion. I'm not attempting to change anyones mind. I'll continue to do what I believe is correct. Others can follow with their beliefs. And others? They seem not to give a rats ***. It shall be written, it shall be done.

And if my valve springs get brittle and break, I'll take it in for warranty. I have a 100K engine drive train warranty. I bought used, and it came with this (certified pre-owned). Although, I've yet to have this happen to me...I guess I'm doing something right?
Not everyone wants to trade in a car after 100k miles nor has the money to go through with it.

---------- Post added at 11:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 AM ----------

And I also understand your just posting your opinion... Nice to have an intelligent convo every once in a while
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:15 AM   #70
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Congrats on the retirement...I hope to be there soon, only in my real job....

I still moderate for a great F150 site. Enjoy that. Enjoy good topics.
Just retired from being a mod, wish I was retired @ 33 lol actually hope to start my new job next week..
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