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Old 04-25-2014, 03:44 PM   #1
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Very informative tech information. I have no doubt this will help other members with your builds in the future. Especially the comparison of compression and boost on a street car. As that seems to be the majority of the guys here.

Thanks for sharing!

Shane
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Old 04-25-2014, 04:58 PM   #2
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Cheers, thanks. I might be upgrading to a '14 GT next year; I spoke to one of the performance division guys at my dealership to see if they would do an aluminator swap..by trading in my 5.0 engine. They said they might, however it needs to be discussed further at length since its not something plug and play. Warranties, labor, buying back stock 5.0 engine and what not would have to brought into the picture.

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Old 04-27-2014, 02:30 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by bazinga11 View Post
Cheers, thanks. I might be upgrading to a '14 GT next year; I spoke to one of the performance division guys at my dealership to see if they would do an aluminator swap..by trading in my 5.0 engine. They said they might, however it needs to be discussed further at length since its not something plug and play. Warranties, labor, buying back stock 5.0 engine and what not would have to brought into the picture.

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Wait your getting ride of your 5.0 for what?
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Old 04-27-2014, 02:37 PM   #4
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Wait your getting ride of your 5.0 for what?
Nahw not getting rid of it or anything. I was saying IF I bought a GT with low miles next year, I might trade its 'stock 5.0' engine for a new '5.0 aluminator' through the dealership..if it proved feasible $$$ wise.

And since aluminator comes in two compression ratios (9.5:1 for boost applications, and 11:1), the guide I posted would prove handy for someone like me who's aspiring to put big power down.

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Old 04-28-2014, 12:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bazinga11 View Post
Cheers, thanks. I might be upgrading to a '14 GT next year; I spoke to one of the performance division guys at my dealership to see if they would do an aluminator swap..by trading in my 5.0 engine. They said they might, however it needs to be discussed further at length since its not something plug and play. Warranties, labor, buying back stock 5.0 engine and what not would have to brought into the picture.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazinga11 View Post
Nahw not getting rid of it or anything. I was saying IF I bought a GT with low miles next year, I might trade its 'stock 5.0' engine for a new '5.0 aluminator' through the dealership..if it proved feasible $$$ wise.

And since aluminator comes in two compression ratios (9.5:1 for boost applications, and 11:1), the guide I posted would prove handy for someone like me who's aspiring to put big power down.

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That would be very cool of your dealership to setup a new GT like that for you. I'd be interested to hear how much more it ends up costing you in the end though. Would it be more practical to upgrade to a Shelby right from the start instead? How much power are you planning to make it you were to go through with it?

Shane
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Old 04-28-2014, 02:43 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by AMShaneLesky View Post
That would be very cool of your dealership to setup a new GT like that for you. I'd be interested to hear how much more it ends up costing you in the end though. Would it be more practical to upgrade to a Shelby right from the start instead? How much power are you planning to make it you were to go through with it?

Shane
Doing a rough estimate, it should land around $5k give or take. $8k for aluminator - $4k for stock coyote engine + $1000 labor for the swap.

I might be wrong but let's assume if I'm not, then I guess this $5k number is right on par with forging your internals (parts + labor/machine work). Something tells me Aluminator would hold together much better as compared to a stock engine with forged internals if I'm putting down 1000HP to the wheels (which is the ultimate goal one day, more is always less haha). Now of course to achieve that number, one has to consider several other factors too - transmission (I don't think MT-82 would hold good beyond 800, would it?), upgraded suspension, fuel system, and bunch of other mods.

Shelby is super awesome car, more like muscle car porn on the road for me. But i guess a $30k difference in price tag doesn't justify what you get over a GT in my opinion. It doesn't have forged internals, nor super awesome suspension system. I guess you're paying for the name Shelby - much like a Microsoft laptop and a pricey Mac. I can easily use the additional $30K on GT and make it an absolute beast that will smoke Shelby/European car all day any day.

Now again, this is just my opinion and Im sure many others would say contrary to what I believe

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Old 04-29-2014, 12:09 PM   #7
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$4k doesn't sound like a bad deal for a forged crate engine from Ford Racing. Although, if you're looking to push 1000rwhp, than I'd go a different direction myself.

As far as I'm aware, the bare Aluminator block is identical to the 2013 GT production block? This I could be certainly wrong about, but regardless, the 2013 GT bare production block is a very stout engine block. Which really brings us down to what internals are used for the two, to show the weakest link. In this instance, I'm referring to an Aluminator shortblock compared to a stock 2013 GT bare block with aftermarket forged rotating assembly.

Looking at the Aluminator shortblock, it comes with a Mahle graphal coated pistons and Manley H-beam rods. That's a nice setup no doubt, but if you want to make a reliable 1000rwhp, you have to look past the terms "Forged." My first question is- what kind of forging are the aluminum Mahle pistons? Being that this is a Ford Racing Crate Engine, I'm betting they're 4032 forged pistons, opposed to 2618 forged pistons. 4032 forged pistons are most popular for production or crate engines because they have better street manners. By that I mean, they're less likely to suffer from piston slap during cold start ups because they have the ability to run tighter clearances than 2618 pistons, since the 4032 forgings expand less during operating temperature. Which also means the 4032 forgings produce less blow-by and oil consumption with continuous cold starts, resulting in a cleaning running engine for daily driving.

From what I described up above, it sounds like 4032 forged pistons are the best there is. Which is true if your engine or car is built for the correct limits. However, the weakness of 4032 forged pistons is heat. Unlike a 2618 forging, the 4032's are still prone to cracking when experiencing excessive heat. Where at 2618 forging will always deform, but never crack. 2618 Forged pistons are not just strong, but they can take continuous excessive heat for long periods of time, where a 4032 cannot.

There is not an exact horsepower limit to each forging, as it depends on more than just hp. Driving style, EGT's, Engine duty cycle, Vehicle load, etc., all becomes a factor. That being said, I personally wouldn't push a 4032 forged piston past 800rwhp on pump or race gas. If using E85, maybe the occasional 900+ rwhp, would be okay, but again that depends. **Keep in mind E85 has a cooler combustion temperature than race gas like c16.**

Next, is the different strengths of forged connecting rods. I know Manley make a killer connection rod, but they also make more than a few versions. I'd be surprised if the version for the Aluminator block is rated to well over a 1000hp (since you'll be around 1200 engine hp to make 1000rwhp).

Now I know there's more than a few people out there that have made 1000rwhp with an Aluminator shortblock. I would take notice how long they've made this power and how often they the engine actually sees this power. I doubt you'll find many guys running this application for years, if they drive their Mustangs often. Even still, there's always someone who has had a flawless experience. Which is great for than, I just wouldn't risk my own luck in that fashion. If you truly want to make a 1000rwhp, than I suggest forging either the stock engine or Aluminator block with a rotating assembly that's designed for it.

On another note- all of the 2007-2014 GT500's are equipped with a forged rotating assembly. Some years have higher quality internals than others, especially 13-14 GT500's. Also, they all use some form of a 4032 forged piston.

I don't mean to rant on you btw haha! I could tell you're interested in gaining knowledge about this potential future build and thought you may be interested in the above info. Hope it helps you out!

Shane
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMShaneLesky View Post
$4k doesn't sound like a bad deal for a forged crate engine from Ford Racing. Although, if you're looking to push 1000rwhp, than I'd go a different direction myself.

As far as I'm aware, the bare Aluminator block is identical to the 2013 GT production block? This I could be certainly wrong about, but regardless, the 2013 GT bare production block is a very stout engine block. Which really brings us down to what internals are used for the two, to show the weakest link. In this instance, I'm referring to an Aluminator shortblock compared to a stock 2013 GT bare block with aftermarket forged rotating assembly.

Looking at the Aluminator shortblock, it comes with a Mahle graphal coated pistons and Manley H-beam rods. That's a nice setup no doubt, but if you want to make a reliable 1000rwhp, you have to look past the terms "Forged." My first question is- what kind of forging are the aluminum Mahle pistons? Being that this is a Ford Racing Crate Engine, I'm betting they're 4032 forged pistons, opposed to 2618 forged pistons. 4032 forged pistons are most popular for production or crate engines because they have better street manners. By that I mean, they're less likely to suffer from piston slap during cold start ups because they have the ability to run tighter clearances than 2618 pistons, since the 4032 forgings expand less during operating temperature. Which also means the 4032 forgings produce less blow-by and oil consumption with continuous cold starts, resulting in a cleaning running engine for daily driving.

From what I described up above, it sounds like 4032 forged pistons are the best there is. Which is true if your engine or car is built for the correct limits. However, the weakness of 4032 forged pistons is heat. Unlike a 2618 forging, the 4032's are still prone to cracking when experiencing excessive heat. Where at 2618 forging will always deform, but never crack. 2618 Forged pistons are not just strong, but they can take continuous excessive heat for long periods of time, where a 4032 cannot.

There is not an exact horsepower limit to each forging, as it depends on more than just hp. Driving style, EGT's, Engine duty cycle, Vehicle load, etc., all becomes a factor. That being said, I personally wouldn't push a 4032 forged piston past 800rwhp on pump or race gas. If using E85, maybe the occasional 900+ rwhp, would be okay, but again that depends. **Keep in mind E85 has a cooler combustion temperature than race gas like c16.**

Next, is the different strengths of forged connecting rods. I know Manley make a killer connection rod, but they also make more than a few versions. I'd be surprised if the version for the Aluminator block is rated to well over a 1000hp (since you'll be around 1200 engine hp to make 1000rwhp).

Now I know there's more than a few people out there that have made 1000rwhp with an Aluminator shortblock. I would take notice how long they've made this power and how often they the engine actually sees this power. I doubt you'll find many guys running this application for years, if they drive their Mustangs often. Even still, there's always someone who has had a flawless experience. Which is great for than, I just wouldn't risk my own luck in that fashion. If you truly want to make a 1000rwhp, than I suggest forging either the stock engine or Aluminator block with a rotating assembly that's designed for it.

On another note- all of the 2007-2014 GT500's are equipped with a forged rotating assembly. Some years have higher quality internals than others, especially 13-14 GT500's. Also, they all use some form of a 4032 forged piston.

I don't mean to rant on you btw haha! I could tell you're interested in gaining knowledge about this potential future build and thought you may be interested in the above info. Hope it helps you out!

Shane
Wow, thanks for all that info Shane!! I never knew there were two different kind of forgings out there. Do you happen to have any idea if after market forged rotating assemblies (say from MMR) are 4032 or 2618? And what are their safe operating range if I chose to go this route, instead of an aluminator?

Also you mentioned 4032 pistons wont be able to withstand excessive heat, for long periods of time. And by that do you mean if the car is redlined, madfe to push more than 8-900rwhp for like hours? Can you please elaborate a bit on that?

For discussion's sake, lets I am going with an aluminator that has 4032 pistons with definitely 4 digit power in mind; I don't I think will ever push limits for sustained periods of time. Like maybe doing a few 1/4 mile runs, racing a cocky import ****** here and there, or maybe something like 'short-term' like that. Nothing too hardcore where engine would be under constant stress for a long time. I'm still learning the trade of having a monstrous power plant under the hood, while still being able to use it as a DD.

I don't meant to sound over smart but I kinda had an idea that shelby's are forged up until last month, when I went to local Mustang-only shop to their insight on power adders to V6s'. And as our conversation kept moving along, the topic of shelbys' came up - more specifically the 5.8 engine. I was under the impression that may be it's a modified coyote engine. Nope, the guy told me its basically a 5.4 with a bigger bore (or something along those lines) and that people have been blowing their engines going past 750rwhp on 13-14s. I was like don't they have forged internals, he replied no they do not. And hence why I wrote the $30K price tag difference doesn't justify what you get over a 5.0 GT haha

PS: just out of curiosity, how far can you safely push a stock 5.0 with F.I? Instant torque/flat curve from down low is what I am after.
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