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Old 07-15-2014, 07:55 AM   #36
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We're there any dyno graphs from him doing this? Any gains at all?

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Old 07-15-2014, 08:06 AM   #37
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Seeing as how the intake manifold opening is already larger than the Throttlebody opening, and swapping to a larger throttle body is only good for 3-5 whp (from what i've seen) at best, i'd say the flow restriction in this system is clearly not the throttle body. I'm lazy (and drive a 5.0 so partially dont care ) but if someone wanted to measure their air filter CFM and work their way back to the motor, you could almost calculate the weakest point.

Air Filter Calculations

Heres some CFM formulas if someones feeling frisky.
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Old 07-15-2014, 08:08 AM   #38
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Ok cool. Does the opening to the I.m. being matched to an equally sized throttle body help?

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Old 07-15-2014, 09:29 AM   #39
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Well, i'll start at the bottom and work my way up.

Cylinder head - intake: At .550 lift on stock cams we're looking at about 262 CFM.

Lower intake manifold: 262 cfm

Upper intake manifold: "outflows the lower" so lets assume that is not a restriction.

The throttle body / IM opening as posted in this thread is ~80mm, and the throttle body is what was it ~68mm?

using the math here (someone feel free to check mine) High Performance Math
it seems this engine, making peak whp at 6350 based on a dew dyno sheets i looked at, only needs a 65mm throttle body to reach its airflow needs so the stock one seems pretty adequate ... Lets back that up by measuring the engines total airflow.
A rough calculation shows the engine flows around 354.52 CFM at 90% VE @ 6350 rpms... Most N/a engines do not operate around 100% VE, and very few are capable of operating over it. The 5.0L coyote is one of the few capable of doing so with its Ti-vct cam technology and wide selection of flow mods. Generally there will be sections of the power band where values of >1.0 load are achieved, and these are our values where we have achieved >100% VE. I dont have any cyclone datalogs to look at, but an educated guess for engines with mostly stock components is probably around 85 - 90% VE. If anyone has some datalogs, just find me your max calculated load. I can probably try to datalog my GF's car this weekend, but this may have slipped my mind by then.

So either my quick math is off somewhere, or this engine is far capable of outflowing its entire top end, because keep in mind, this is max theoretical effeciency ... swapping a TB will not be worth much at that point. Granted, a lot of these are guestimates and measurements found on google, so i would not take my word as law.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:33 AM   #40
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Guys should read C&L website on their intake. It shoves more air into the TB but they even say that it's te throttle body that limits. So with a intake, TB, and full exhaust your engine will run better, and more power. It's a supporting mod, kinda like larger injectors with F/I


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Old 07-16-2014, 10:55 AM   #41
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Quoted here:

These photos illustrate the final configuration for our 2011 V6 air intake upgrade. Even when handicapped with a 3" diameter opening at the throttle body, the flow capacity of this assembly is greater than many of the aftermarket upgrade assemblies that are sold for the 2005-2009 GT Mustang applications. Due to the size and flow capacity of the factory throttle body (68mm) and the inlet tube diameter (3") at the throttle body, this system is sold as a "no-tune" required assembly. Due to the throttle body size, creating a "tune required" version would not increase the airflow capacity of this system. Even if the engine were to be outfitted with an aftermarket upgrade throttle body (which would range in maximum size between 73-75mm), the flow capacity of this air intake assembly would still be greater than the throttle body.




Check the math, and the wording. They're not saying the throttle body is a restriction, They're saying the intake is larger and just simply outflows it. They say the intake system flows 685 CFM elsewhere in that article, which i've already shown is FAR more than the cylinder heads or intake manifold will flow, so its next as no different what throttle body you have on there.

Its clever marketing wording on their part really. What dictates whether an intake needs a tune or not is not how much air it flows, but if the MAF diameter is the same as stock. If the MAF diameter changes, a tune IS required, no ifs ands or buts. If the MAF diameter does not change, the intake will work with the stock tune, regardless of how much more air it does or does not flow (assuming the MAF does not peg). They're basically just saying "our intake is this big because thats the most flow your engine needs."

Granted its FI, so not a direct apples to apples, but my Old car was a mazdaspeed3 which had a factory 60mm TB. I tuned my own car (and still actively tune a handful of big turbo cars), and even at 500 whp, the TB is not exactly a point of restriction when swapped to a 75mm unit. What determines the need for a bigger TB are CFM, and RPM, neither of which the cyclone is pushing with the stock intake manifold.
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Old 07-16-2014, 02:02 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Quoted here:

These photos illustrate the final configuration for our 2011 V6 air intake upgrade. Even when handicapped with a 3" diameter opening at the throttle body, the flow capacity of this assembly is greater than many of the aftermarket upgrade assemblies that are sold for the 2005-2009 GT Mustang applications. Due to the size and flow capacity of the factory throttle body (68mm) and the inlet tube diameter (3") at the throttle body, this system is sold as a "no-tune" required assembly. Due to the throttle body size, creating a "tune required" version would not increase the airflow capacity of this system. Even if the engine were to be outfitted with an aftermarket upgrade throttle body (which would range in maximum size between 73-75mm), the flow capacity of this air intake assembly would still be greater than the throttle body.




Check the math, and the wording. They're not saying the throttle body is a restriction, They're saying the intake is larger and just simply outflows it. They say the intake system flows 685 CFM elsewhere in that article, which i've already shown is FAR more than the cylinder heads or intake manifold will flow, so its next as no different what throttle body you have on there.

Its clever marketing wording on their part really. What dictates whether an intake needs a tune or not is not how much air it flows, but if the MAF diameter is the same as stock. If the MAF diameter changes, a tune IS required, no ifs ands or buts. If the MAF diameter does not change, the intake will work with the stock tune, regardless of how much more air it does or does not flow (assuming the MAF does not peg). They're basically just saying "our intake is this big because thats the most flow your engine needs."

Granted its FI, so not a direct apples to apples, but my Old car was a mazdaspeed3 which had a factory 60mm TB. I tuned my own car (and still actively tune a handful of big turbo cars), and even at 500 whp, the TB is not exactly a point of restriction when swapped to a 75mm unit. What determines the need for a bigger TB are CFM, and RPM, neither of which the cyclone is pushing with the stock intake manifold.

Glad for the clarification. I'm still a believer in engines act like air pumps. The more you get in, the more out, the better it'll run. I know a guy who put a 351 carb in an 06 GT... His words are this... Step back and think. Just because someone says it can't be done, doesn't make it true.


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Old 07-16-2014, 02:08 PM   #43
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Voltwings is correct.


You gain more with a ported intake manifold than a TB.
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Old 07-16-2014, 02:32 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitelightning View Post
Glad for the clarification. I'm still a believer in engines act like air pumps. The more you get in, the more out, the better it'll run. I know a guy who put a 351 carb in an 06 GT... His words are this... Step back and think. Just because someone says it can't be done, doesn't make it true.


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This is true, but again, you're only flowing as much as your most restrictive point. 5" intake, 105mm TB, super custom intake manifold... If those stock cams and heads are still choking you (for the sake of example) then your entire top end is meaningless.

Just because the TB flows less than the intake does not make it the least flowing piece of the system.
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Old 07-16-2014, 03:48 PM   #45
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But how do we know the cams are more or less restrictive than the tb or im.? I know my steeda intake is huge and alot bugger than stock so that's not reatricting

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Old 07-16-2014, 06:27 PM   #46
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The CFM numbers posted earlier are a good place to start. look at a v6 powerband in a dyno graph. See how it starts falling off? That means somewhere in the system there is a restriction. My guess is its the design of the stock manifold based on what we see with the stock 5.0 manifold vs the Boss or Cobrajet units.








Heres an example of a 3.7 Dyno.

You can see the power flat line, which is good, but this is basically a stock car with an intake. As you continue to add mods, that flatline will slowly turn into a dip unless your more serious restrictions are addressed. I'd be willing to bet if someone finds me a dyno of a more heavily modded (N/A) V6 you will see what im talking about.
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:40 PM   #47
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So that restriction is in the Im, tb, or cylinder head I am guessing?

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Old 07-17-2014, 07:29 AM   #48
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I'm guessing intake manifold, If you can raise the RPMs, the cylidner heads will be able to maintain airflow. Horsepower = (torque x rpm) /5252. As you can see, you gain MUCH more power from RPMS than you do from torque. Being able to hold your powerband out another 500-700 rpms will likely be much easier than trying to find another 500 - 700 torque laying around. If the 3.7 had an intake manifold that could utilize high RPMs like 7500 or so it could be pretty nasty. The only downside is your typical high rise intake manifold will cost you some torque... something the 3.7 doesnt have a lot of to lose.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:34 AM   #49
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Yeah I am looking at maximize torque and horsepower gains. Same reason I would do shorties instead of lt headers

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Old 07-17-2014, 06:33 PM   #50
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So the throttle body came in the mail
It measures 3 and 1/8th of an inch on the inside The intake manifold opening is 3 and 1/32. The stock throttle body is roughly 2 and 5/8. Thus shows that the throttle body is the choke point for the intake of the 3.7l. The 5.0 throttle body is much larger than the stock one and almost matches the Im opening perfectly. The bolts don't line up but I traced a few things and can make an adapter plate pretty easy. The steeda intake is larger from filter through the velocity stack, maf, and even the tube. The tube grows smaller as it approaches the small stock intake. The hose my stretch over the new tb or I might have to get a new silicone hose. Either way the 5.0 tb matches the steeda intake and the Im opening nearly exactly and I hope to see it work well. Any ideas if the matching sizes would cause less power or issues? Does the intake to the manifold grow smaller for any particular reason?

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Old 07-17-2014, 06:34 PM   #51
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Measured the stock tb. It's 2 and 7/8

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Old 07-17-2014, 07:02 PM   #52
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Hmm, I would say cut the intake so that you maintain a uniform diameter (no neck down) but I don't know that that will work with the steeda piece... You could likely measure the angles (looks like a 45 and 60 from the pictures but its hard to tell) and run two angles, one off the MAF, and the other off the TB, with a small section of straight pipe in between. Almost getting to be more trouble than its worth at that point, but at least then you don't have to destroy the steeda piece. You'd also either need to figure out how to adapt the PCV to work, or run breathers.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:05 PM   #53
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Well the breather and pcv connect to the steeda tube. That should be fine. I am looking at making an adapter plate that has a gradual change from the tb to the im. It only needs to be like 1/16 difference and if smoothed and tapered it wouldn't really cause turbulence I would think

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Old 07-18-2014, 08:38 AM   #54
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Stock 3.7 TB is 68mm.
Stock 5.0 TB is 80mm.
Stock 3.7 intake manifold opening is 74mm.
Also a guy names Solobusa had a spacer made and was selling the spacer and 5.0 TB for $350.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:27 PM   #55
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The intake manifold opening is 79mm. I measured it last night. From inside side to side it was nearly exactly the same size as the 5.0 tb. The 73mm measurement is wrong. Not a guess or I know a guy.....I checked the 5.0tb I just got and the Im on my own car. Maybe the 2014 pp v6 had a bigger Im opening

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Old 07-18-2014, 12:30 PM   #56
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Correction 78mm. My phone is auto changing things

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Old 07-18-2014, 12:31 PM   #57
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I have hrottle body and only need the spacer

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Old 07-18-2014, 01:18 PM   #58
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There's a person selling a V6 to GT TB adapter in my other forum if someone is interested...

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Old 07-18-2014, 01:23 PM   #59
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I want it. Can you have them text me? I am not a member of that forum yet 8604613878

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Old 07-18-2014, 01:50 PM   #60
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I sent him a message for you...
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:53 PM   #61
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Cool thanks man

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Old 07-18-2014, 09:20 PM   #62
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I sent him a message for you...

I'm sorry a what? For a 11-14 cyclone engine???


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Old 07-18-2014, 09:39 PM   #63
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No a message to get the Tb adapter plate so I can run a 5.0 tb on my 3.7engine. Should net about 17 hp from the information I have gathered from those who have done it.

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Old 07-18-2014, 11:54 PM   #64
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17 hp huh...? That's quite impressive for just a throttle body upgrade on a NA 3.7.
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Old 07-19-2014, 06:28 AM   #65
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That's what I was told. At the wheels probably not. The crank....maybe. if I get 5 whp I will be happy with it. The 73mm shows some gains so it should st least be equal to those

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Old 08-03-2014, 11:15 AM   #66
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How's the test going? Any updates?
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Old 08-03-2014, 11:34 AM   #67
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Been on vacation but I did draw up the plans for an adapter plate. I plan on fabricating one when I get home.

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Old 08-03-2014, 09:43 PM   #68
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Just read the last page, about to brush up on the thread- interested in following.

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Old 08-30-2014, 05:48 PM   #69
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I was interested in this thread because I was wondering the same thing, "Can you put a 5.0 TB on a 3.7?" The opening is indeed big enough. So......after work today, I took an 80mm TB from a 5.0 and modified it to fit on the upper intake of the 3.7. It works just fine and dandy! You have to do some things to make this work but nothing that is not reversible, at least for the car. The 80mm TB has to get cut up a bit. I will post some pictures if I can figure out how (to post pictures).
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Old 08-30-2014, 06:22 PM   #70
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Oh that is sweet. I haven't had a chance to make an adapter plate yet. What did you do to make it bolt up? Let me know because if I don't need an adapter plate I will do this tomorrow

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