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Old 08-22-2014, 01:28 AM   #316
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I still say just slap a pro charger system turn the boost up to 20 psi and call it a day. Ha ha

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Old 08-22-2014, 01:36 AM   #317
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I still say just slap a pro charger system turn the boost up to 20 psi and call it a day. Ha ha

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This turbo will spool much faster than a procharger and give a lot more torque.


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Old 08-22-2014, 06:04 AM   #318
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Well this thread derailed quickly..
Before I release results, I want y'all to understand that the results were on a dynocom not on a dynojet, and that a dynocom will read lower than a dynojet.
How much, I'm not sure?

Maybe instead of measuring dick size, we could discuss the difference between the dynos

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I have to respectfully disagree with you about a dynocom reading lower than a dynojet....

Any dyno can be made to read high or low... it all depends on how it was setup and calibrated. Everyone knows a Mustang Dyno will read about 12% to 15% lower than a DynoJet, but there are some shops out there that will in fact set their Mustang Dynos up so they read more like a DynoJet....

I did some googling this morning... there are a few Dynocom threads out there that are saying a Dynocom will actually read HIGHER than a DynoJet.... and in fact i found someone who dyno'd their car on both a a Dynocom and a Dynojet and the Dynocom was higher...

So i really don't think you can make the blanket statement that "a dynocom will read lower than a dynojet."

Regardless of the peak numbers from the dyno, the more interesting stuff will be the actual graph and hopefully a 1/4 mile time slip....
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:11 AM   #319
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Stock widebands = self tuning (to a degree) so MAF Housing size is not as critical as with previous narrow band cars.
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With the new cars the computers will compensate a lot and learn not by any means a stand alone or efi or anything but enough to idle properly and drive around decent. I'm not saying go out and race it but it learns enough to decently drive it and get around

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Well how in depth do you want to go? The factory cars come with wide bands, they can read the air fuel percentage that is going through. the computer has all kinds of maps and tables that when it sees certain ratios it compensates.

For example if you put a new intake on or first put a new tune it it idles high and like crap then if you let it keep running for a few minutes it will settle down and compensate enough to idle decent and drive. Like I said it won't completely self tune but it adjusts a decent amount and can get you going. The car has maps that it's supposed to stay in and the computer tries to make it as close to that as it can.

Anyways back to the turbo


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I don't know how to make this any more explicitly clear than I already have ... wide bands alone CAN NOT make up the difference for changing the MAF diameter.


Most modern ECUs can only change your MAF curve by 20-30%, some as much as 40%, but that is still, repeat, IS STILL not enough to make up the difference in changing the MAF.


I will repeat myself again, I tuned a car with factory widebands that changed the MAF diameter and had the fuel trims pegged at 30%. Apparently I wasn't clear the first time, this means the ECU is using said wide bands to realize you are incredibly lean and is trying to add 30% more fuel than it was already commanding. Even after adding 30% more fuel the car was still running an 18 AFR, which will drive around the block just fine, but I sure as hell wouldn't hope to get it to a tuner like that ... I really should not be having to explain this to someone who works at a performance shop Connor.
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:33 AM   #320
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I don't know how to make this any more explicitly clear than I already have ... wide bands alone CAN NOT make up the difference for changing the MAF diameter.


Most modern ECUs can only change your MAF curve by 20-30%, some as much as 40%, but that is still, repeat, IS STILL not enough to make up the difference in changing the MAF.


I will repeat myself again, I tuned a car with factory widebands that changed the MAF diameter and had the fuel trims pegged at 30%. Apparently I wasn't clear the first time, this means the ECU is using said wide bands to realize you are incredibly lean and is trying to add 30% more fuel than it was already commanding. Even after adding 30% more fuel the car was still running an 18 AFR, which will drive around the block just fine, but I sure as hell wouldn't hope to get it to a tuner like that ... I really should not be having to explain this to someone who works at a performance shop Connor.
You have been very clear... and understand you completely... change the maf housing size on a 4.0 and it most likely not run at all.... So yes, i basically agree with you...

HOWEVER.. do you have actual data from a 3.7? Unless you have actually data from a 3.7 to back up your statements, i have to go with the evidence I do have... multiple 3.7 cars where the maf housing size has changed and cars start, idle and seem to run descently... so based on that evidence it appears the 3.7 has enough room for adjustment... so really, if you want to keep arguing this you need to provide us with some actual 3.7 data logs showing fuel trims maxed out and a rich afr...
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:34 AM   #321
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I don't have the graph yet, should get it tomorrow morning

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Have they ever dyno tuned a 3.7 Mustang before or were you the first one (I meant to ask you this when you first said you were taking it to them)? If you were the first, I'm sure adding FI to the mix would make it that much more difficult.
The dyno graph should be able to tell us if there is any room for improvement.
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:47 AM   #322
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Yea first 3.7

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Old 08-22-2014, 07:47 AM   #323
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You have been very clear... and understand you completely... change the maf housing size on a 4.0 and it most likely not run at all.... So yes, i basically agree with you...

HOWEVER.. do you have actual data from a 3.7? Unless you have actually data from a 3.7 to back up your statements, i have to go with the evidence I do have... multiple 3.7 cars where the maf housing size has changed and cars start, idle and seem to run descently... so based on that evidence it appears the 3.7 has enough room for adjustment... so really, if you want to keep arguing this you need to provide us with some actual 3.7 data logs showing fuel trims maxed out and a rich afr...
I never mentioned the 4.0L V6 mustangs? I have a 5.0 that i have datalogged (do not tune it myself) and my tuner sent me an incorrect revision, and was off .5" on my MAF sizing. My car started, idled, everything just fine. Again, i have never said the cars wont run, but i had my computer plugged in and the datalogger open to check for such things just incase, and i was running lean, even with fuel trims pegged at 40%.

Now, i did not drive it, i did not care to, I dont prefer to risk such things and leave an $8k motor to chance. I immediatly shut the car off, looked for vacuum leaks, and emailed my tuner. I can log my GF's v6 and see how far the Cyclone fuel trims go, but i can assume they are somewhere similar to the coyote.

Also, you mean lean. Lastly, i have made my case. If you guys feel comfortable doing that, then its 100% on you. I dont understand willfully arguing that it is ok to change the MAF size and just let the computer try to compensate for it, but to each his own.
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:55 AM   #324
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I have a 5.0 that i have datalogged (do not tune it myself) and my tuner sent me an incorrect revision, and was off .5" on my MAF sizing. My car started, idled, everything just fine. Again, i have never said the cars wont run, but i had my computer plugged in and the datalogger open to check for such things just incase, and i was running lean, even with fuel trims pegged at 40%.

Now, i did not drive it, i did not care to, I dont prefer to risk such things and leave an $8k motor to chance. I immediatly shut the car off, looked for vacuum leaks, and emailed my tuner. I can log my GF's v6 and see how far the Cyclone fuel trims go, but i can assume they are somewhere similar to the coyote.

Also, you mean lean. Lastly, i have made my case. If you guys feel comfortable doing that, then its 100% on you. I dont understand willfully arguing that it is ok to change the MAF size and just let the computer try to compensate for it, but to each his own.
So you have no actual 3.7 data....

I'm not saying it's "ok" not to get a tune... but you are making it sound like if you change the maf housing the car won't run at all or at least be almost completely undrivable.... What i'm saying is that does not appear to be the case on the 3.7. i'm talking about something like popeye's case where he changed the size and was able to get the car up and running but had the full intention of getting a proper tune...
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:06 AM   #325
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I have tuned more than a handful of cars. The 3.7 cyclone is not special, it is not particular. A MAF curve is a MAF curve, regardless of what car it is on, I dont need 3.7 data for that to be true. I will happily get you some, but honestly, trying to convince this crowd is like trying to heard cats and i quite frankly am done trying.

Again, i have stated several times now, that the cars will run and drive, they are just dangerously lean. Have you ever driven a car at 18 afr? Its shockingly smooth, but not at all something i recomend. If that is something you, or whomever, trusts because 1 person said its ok then go for it.
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:08 AM   #326
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This is a turbo thread not a maf size thread that conversation was done 2 days ago please can we move forward

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Old 08-22-2014, 08:11 AM   #327
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I have to respectfully disagree with you about a dynocom reading lower than a dynojet....

Any dyno can be made to read high or low... it all depends on how it was setup and calibrated. Everyone knows a Mustang Dyno will read about 12% to 15% lower than a DynoJet, but there are some shops out there that will in fact set their Mustang Dynos up so they read more like a DynoJet....

I did some googling this morning... there are a few Dynocom threads out there that are saying a Dynocom will actually read HIGHER than a DynoJet.... and in fact i found someone who dyno'd their car on both a a Dynocom and a Dynojet and the Dynocom was higher...

So i really don't think you can make the blanket statement that "a dynocom will read lower than a dynojet."

Regardless of the peak numbers from the dyno, the more interesting stuff will be the actual graph and hopefully a 1/4 mile time slip....
I was basing it off of what the tuner told me.
I'm going to wait for the next dyno day, and head to a local dynojet.
Mainly to compare my numbers to connors, so that everyone in the thread stops asking (why are you not Making as much)

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Old 08-22-2014, 08:17 AM   #328
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I was basing it off of what the tuner told me.
I'm going to wait for the next dyno day, and head to a local dynojet.
Mainly to compare my numbers to connors, so that everyone in the thread stops asking (why are you not Making as much)

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well, how much are you making?

any plans to take the car to the track?
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:58 AM   #329
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This turbo will spool much faster than a procharger and give a lot more torque.


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Well, you got me there. No doubt the torque made with a pro charger system will be less. I have too totally agree with you on that one. 👅

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Old 08-22-2014, 09:02 AM   #330
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You don't understand how difficult running the inter cooler lines are. So much it even had the tuner cussing!


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Old 08-22-2014, 09:23 AM   #331
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You don't understand how difficult running the inter cooler lines are. So much it even had the tuner cussing!


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so not quite so easy even a caveman could do it?
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:48 AM   #332
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You don't understand how difficult running the inter cooler lines are. So much it even had the tuner cussing!


The original... Boss 227!

Well the intercooler and piping was made to fit on a 2013-2014. I'm sure If I were to put a 2011-2012 FI kit w/intercooler on my 13 I would have to tweak stuff also.
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:51 AM   #333
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I was basing it off of what the tuner told me.
I'm going to wait for the next dyno day, and head to a local dynojet.
Mainly to compare my numbers to connors, so that everyone in the thread stops asking (why are you not Making as much)

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Can't you at least give us the numbers why we are waiting on the dyno sheet to be posted?
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:53 AM   #334
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Can't you at least give us the numbers why we are waiting on the dyno sheet to be posted?

Without a baseline, they really dont mean much. The graph is the important thing here.
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:59 AM   #335
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Can't you at least give us the numbers why we are waiting on the dyno sheet to be posted?
406.4 hp/371.4 torque on 93 & 457.5/410.3 torque on e85

I'm gonna take it to a dynojet to compare the numbers to connors.
I'll get the graph soon.

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Old 08-22-2014, 10:00 AM   #336
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Well the intercooler and piping was made to fit on a 2013-2014. I'm sure If I were to put a 2011-2012 FI kit w/intercooler on my 13 I would have to tweak stuff also.
thing is.... the kit is listed/advertised as 2011 to 2014.... and as such it should have been designed to fit those years... there is no disclaimer that says, oh by the way if you have a 2011 or 2012 you will have to "tweak" things...
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:01 AM   #337
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406.4 hp/371.4 torque on 93 & 457.5/410.3 torque on e85

I'm gonna take it to a dynojet to compare the numbers to connors.
I'll get the graph soon.

The real... boss 227
sorry if i missed it... how much boost was this?
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:03 AM   #338
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sorry if i missed it... how much boost was this?
10 lbs

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Old 08-22-2014, 10:14 AM   #339
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406.4 hp/371.4 torque on 93 & 457.5/410.3 torque on e85

I'm gonna take it to a dynojet to compare the numbers to connors.
I'll get the graph soon.

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I wouldnt waste the time / money. You can dyno on 100 different units, but without a baseline they'll continue to just be numbers, because every single dyno reads differently.

I proved this point to some people on the mazdaspeed forums years ago, i took my car to two random dynos one day. Made 275 whp / 340 wtq on one and 320 whp and 400 wtq on another with no baseline on either. Assuming your typical stock mazdaspeed3 makes about 240 at the wheels, according to either dyno, i apparently either made only 35 whp over stock with downpipe, bolt ons and e85 on one dyno, whereas the other i made about 80 ...

Without a baseline to compare the gains to, its literally just a number, that's why i've been saying the graph is the important part.
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:15 AM   #340
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10 lbs

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thanks!
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:17 AM   #341
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Thanks for posting numbers up.


I don't think I would be upset about those peak numbers from a tuner that has never tuned a 3.7 before let alone a 3.7 turbo. I would say its the tune showing low peak numbers. Could be the dyno, but I doubt the dyno is off that much. Can't wait to see the graph and what it looks like under the curve, peak isn't everything man I would rather have power under the curve and a safe tune any day over a dyno queen.
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:29 AM   #342
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I wouldnt waste the time / money. You can dyno on 100 different units, but without a baseline they'll continue to just be numbers, because every single dyno reads differently.

I proved this point to some people on the mazdaspeed forums years ago, i took my car to two random dynos one day. Made 275 whp / 340 wtq on one and 320 whp and 400 wtq on another with no baseline on either. Assuming your typical stock mazdaspeed3 makes about 240 at the wheels, according to either dyno, i apparently either made only 35 whp over stock with downpipe, bolt ons and e85 on one dyno, whereas the other i made about 80 ...

Without a baseline to compare the gains to, its literally just a number, that's why i've been saying the graph is the important part.

Really? All most every 3.7 Mustang I have seen dyno'd are very close to each other with similar mods and tune in peak torque/hp (yes I know this doesn't say anything about power under the curve). As a matter of fact Lund told me that since he's been tuning the 3.7, that there is hardly any variance between one car to another with similar mods and tune as long as they both were manual or automatic cars and using same octane gas when comparing.
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:30 AM   #343
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thing is.... the kit is listed/advertised as 2011 to 2014.... and as such it should have been designed to fit those years... there is no disclaimer that says, oh by the way if you have a 2011 or 2012 you will have to "tweak" things...
The area is still the same, you have to go between the air condenser and some plastic it's tight have to smash the coupler to get it in its the same way on the procharger it's a ***** right there.

Cars aren't made for FI so you have to use the space you have and that's a tight spot but now we are gonna work on making it easier and have some advice how to make it easier

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Old 08-22-2014, 10:33 AM   #344
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Really? All most every 3.7 Mustang I have seen dyno'd are very close to each other with similar mods and tune in peak torque/hp (yes I know this doesn't say anything about power under the curve). As a matter of fact Lund told me that since he's been tuning the 3.7, that there is hardly any variance between one car to another with similar mods and tune as long as they both were manual or automatic cars and using same octane gas when comparing.

My point is that you have no clearly defined starting point, A dyno is a means of measuring gains. Let me ask you this, did my car get any faster going from the shop that said it made 275 to the shop that said it made 320? Will his car be any faster if the next place he goes and dynos at says it makes 500? Unless you can say i made "---" more horsepower than i did with "---" mods, its arbitrary.
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:49 AM   #345
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The area is still the same, you have to go between the air condenser and some plastic it's tight have to smash the coupler to get it in its the same way on the procharger it's a ***** right there.

Cars aren't made for FI so you have to use the space you have and that's a tight spot but now we are gonna work on making it easier and have some advice how to make it easier

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so if i'm reading this right... Alrefire didn't complete this part of the install last weekend and left it for the shop to install? So the 9 hours wasn't the complete install?
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:49 AM   #346
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Why not have Whitelighting make a pull on that dyno? That would be the easiest way to establish somewhat of a baseline.

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Old 08-22-2014, 10:59 AM   #347
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Agreed... Take Coty with you and have him dyno right before you. Bam another basically stock 3.7 on the roller before you on the same day day for the baseline.


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Old 08-22-2014, 11:11 AM   #348
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Agreed... Take Coty with you and have him dyno right before you. Bam another basically stock 3.7 on the roller before you on the same day day for the baseline.


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You should know coty's car isn't able to do that atm...

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---------- Post added at 11:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 AM ----------

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so if i'm reading this right... Alrefire didn't complete this part of the install last weekend and left it for the shop to install? So the 9 hours wasn't the complete install?
I did complete it, tuner just wanted to redo it because it was leaking some.

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Old 08-22-2014, 11:13 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
My point is that you have no clearly defined starting point, A dyno is a means of measuring gains. Let me ask you this, did my car get any faster going from the shop that said it made 275 to the shop that said it made 320? Will his car be any faster if the next place he goes and dynos at says it makes 500? Unless you can say i made "---" more horsepower than i did with "---" mods, its arbitrary.
My point of taking it to a dynojet was to compare my numbers to connors.
So that y'all can see two results on 10-11 lbs of boost

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Old 08-22-2014, 11:22 AM   #350
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You should know coty's car isn't able to do that atm...

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---------- Post added at 11:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 AM ----------



I did complete it, tuner just wanted to redo it because it was leaking some.

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thanks for clarifying
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