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Old 10-31-2014, 05:29 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakib View Post
I agree that a smart and knowledgeable tuner
would be able to compensate for it. That's why I'm skeptical of BAMA not tuning for Grabber's BBK. Even more complicated for 14mistang's 80mm, since that is something he did himself, so it would require a ground up analysis by the tuner.






That would be awesome bro. Take your time, you're the one doing us the service by providing us with valuable data and adding knowledge to the mustang community.

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No doubt it was just pure laziness on Bama's part. I talked to Ken at MPT briefly about the 80mm TB he said they can definitely tune for it, he was a little skeptical about how much it would help, but at least they're putting in the effort to find out.

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Old 10-31-2014, 05:35 PM   #387
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So Bama just straight up did not want to do it for me. Awesome. Knew something weird was up when I couldn't get a straight answer but MPT said yes they could. Bama never got back to me and that's something I really don't appreciate.
That reminds me. I have to ship back the brake pads that came damaged to AM this week. Busy busy not time for car

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Old 10-31-2014, 05:35 PM   #388
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Ford engineers as well as other car companies don't put crazy effort into cars kike the v6 mustang. It's not a race car or a Bently. If they put effort into it and precision design, it wouldn't share common parts with other generic ford automobiles and it wouldn't get gains from the simple bolts on we are all doing since it would be so perfectly engineered already.

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Old 10-31-2014, 05:37 PM   #389
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I received them way back in August but I didn't get the return shipping label until about 2 weeks ago so I keep forgetting. Gotta write a sticky note

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Old 10-31-2014, 05:37 PM   #390
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Ford engineers as well as other car companies don't put crazy effort into cars kike the v6 mustang. It's not a race car or a Bently. If they put effort into it and precision design, it wouldn't share common parts with other generic ford automobiles and it wouldn't get gains from the simple bolts on we are all doing since it would be so perfectly engineered already.

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Pretty much. This is a base car, they put just enough in to make EPA, safety regs and enough performance out of the box to appeal but not scare away lesser drivers.

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Old 10-31-2014, 05:40 PM   #391
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Agreed. Don't get me wrong, with a little effort these cars are beasts. I am able to destroy alot of imports now.

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---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------

And I love my mustang

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Old 10-31-2014, 05:41 PM   #392
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Old 10-31-2014, 05:44 PM   #393
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I don't know what happened in grabber case, but I did get a tune back from Ryan at BAMA - he 'supposedly' made some changes to my previous tune, and have asked me to do a datalog. If they really did revise my tune or they simply re labeled it, I wouldn't know.

Also, when I sent them my datalogs (Oct 11, prior to gt tb) I had requested to make some changes to my tune based on its driveability. I didn't hear from Bama for 2 weeks and by that time I had GT tb. So I called em again to see what's going on, and if they could also incorporate this bigger tb into it. Given Bama's history, I seriously doubt if this tune is going to be any different to one I had prior to Oct 11..

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Old 10-31-2014, 05:55 PM   #394
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Wtf. They gave you one for a TB but wouldn't give me one? Lol.
They haven't even returned my calls or sent me an email like they promised twice. it's been weeks. Maybe I should just say to hell with bama idk why I keep giving them chances. I guess because Alex from AM had such a good impression from my first dealing with them. I just want the same thing you are getting bazinga but I can't even get an answer.

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Old 10-31-2014, 05:57 PM   #395
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Wtf. They gave you one for a TB but wouldn't give me one? Lol.
They haven't even returned my calls or sent me an email like they promised twice. it's been weeks. Maybe I should just say to hell with bama idk why I keep giving them chances. I guess because Alex from AM had such a good impression from my first dealing with them. I just want the same thing you are getting bazinga but I can't even get an answer.

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As Bazinga said, there's no telling if they actually even did anything special to his tune without having someone compare them side by side.

I was done with Bama a long time ago. Alex and AM shouldn't have to clean up Bama's messes time and time again.

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Old 10-31-2014, 06:00 PM   #396
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Mpt baby!!!

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Old 10-31-2014, 06:02 PM   #397
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Lol Grabber, you have to be on their arse until you get things done lol. Even after I got my tune back, I wanted to make sure necessary changes were made as per my request.

Also, I just got off the phone with Louis (he was nice this time lol). I asked him what specifically you guys changed in my tune to incorporate a bigger tb. He goes we only change drive by wire settings for a bigger TB..besides that, nothing is done to fuel, timing, and other parameters since it's your MAF sensor that governs AFR- just what I was wondering about a few posts back. Aghh!!!

They asked me to datalog a new pid though: idle air something. Let's see how it goes.

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Old 10-31-2014, 06:05 PM   #398
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Seems like our honeymoon phase with Bama was quite short lived, and now it's back to the usual shenanigans!

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Old 10-31-2014, 08:46 PM   #399
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Wtf. They gave you one for a TB but wouldn't give me one? Lol.
They haven't even returned my calls or sent me an email like they promised twice. it's been weeks. Maybe I should just say to hell with bama idk why I keep giving them chances. I guess because Alex from AM had such a good impression from my first dealing with them. I just want the same thing you are getting bazinga but I can't even get an answer.

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You have to datalog!!! Once you do that you will get what you want. I need one more data log in I think before i have my car narrowed in.

They can't do anything worth yours and their time with out having your car on their dyno.
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Old 10-31-2014, 08:48 PM   #400
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I tried getting them to data log they said they wouldn't there is no point

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Old 10-31-2014, 09:19 PM   #401
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Well then you need to cook up some story, do a proper datalog and send it in for a revision. Make sure you email Paul, chances are you will get a better tune. I loaded my revised tune this evening, gosh it doesn't even feel quick as my previous one!! Much less mid and top end power to be be felt. Could it because of decreased throttle sensitivity?

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Old 11-01-2014, 08:20 AM   #402
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I tried getting them to data log they said they wouldn't there is no point

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They will not do it for you. You need to do it yourself. Using the SCT and the Livelink software. Then you just tell them you have a datalog you want them to dail in. They will do it. Did it for me with no question.

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Well then you need to cook up some story, do a proper datalog and send it in for a revision. Make sure you email Paul, chances are you will get a better tune. I loaded my revised tune this evening, gosh it doesn't even feel quick as my previous one!! Much less mid and top end power to be be felt. Could it because of decreased throttle sensitivity?

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No need to be concocting any stories or bothering Paul. Hes the Lead, he has a much more important job running the team than he does to be self tuning Everybody's tunes. Can you imagine if everyone went to one of Wolfgang Pucks restaurants and expected him to be the one to cook their entire meal?
im sure Paul is more than willing to help out everyone who requests him when he can but its impossible for him to do so.

Send your first data log to Voltwings or Sakib along with a new log with this revised tune. They should be able to find out why it doesnt feel as good. Could just be like what Sakib was saying in another thread that since the 80mm is on there they had to adjust fuel ratio and timing for it to run properly and its just not doing as well?
It just may be the throttle isnt as touchy anymore. You gotta make sure you let them know what tune they are revising (93Race, 91 race, 93 Perf....so on)
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Old 11-01-2014, 08:39 AM   #403
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I wish I knew how to tune car ecus. Maybe that's what I should learn next. Have done everything else to a car. Btw. I have no issues with my car running a 93 tune and 80mm tb. Maybe it was adjusted to smooth it out but ended up reducing power a little for more driveability

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Old 11-03-2014, 11:53 AM   #404
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Whew, looks like i missed some good stuff in the past few days.
Sakib, in theory you are right, The intake speed air does matter. Typically.

As i'm sure some of you who have heard my rants on headers know, Torque is dictated by the velocity of the air; both into and out of the engine.
Just like Exhaust gases travel in pressure waves (high pressure in the runner, low pressure in the collector) so does the intake air charge. There is an optimal time for the air to arrive at the cylinder, and that time is tuned by the shape of the intake manifold, as well as the intake, throttle body... We know from exhausts that a long / skinny runner is better for Torque, but suffers HP wise correct? Look at the Boss IM vs the GT IM, and you will see this plain as day, same as with exhaust headers.
The runners on the GT are over 17" long, which is why they come from underneath and loop over, to get the appropriate timing for the performance for which that manifold is tuned to deliver.


Now, this is all stuff we can see in application... the TB however does have me confused a bit. Most people claim to see massive low end gains, and only subtle mid range and top end. This would lead us to believe that somehow the air entering the combustion system is doing so at a much faster rate in the low rpms than it previously was... Now, the reason big runners (be them IM or EM) make more horsepower at higher rpms is because they are able to increase the air velocity beyond what it previously was at those rpms when the prior parts were a restriction (thus, reducing the velocity).
In order for the TB to pick up gains in the low rpms, and not in the high rpms, that would mean the factory TB was a restriction at low Rpms, but not at high rpms... That is an interesting phenomenon indeed.

The only thing i can think is that the cam timing is somehow manipulating these results, but i'll admit, ive confused myself into quite the headache here... It will be interesting to follow and see how this all plays out.
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Old 11-06-2014, 09:58 AM   #405
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I've had to reread this 12 different times to come to this idea.

We all know we have valve timing. It changes at a certain rpm or oil preasure.
(Not sure which it is) so while in "economy " timing we see big gains from the larger TB. Once the timing changes more for performance we see it suffer and not really help. This timing difference affects the velocities between the two different TBS and this is why most don't see a resonator for a bigger TB.
However i wonder if intake piping size and length have anything to do with it as well. With a larger TB maybe we need a shorter, smaller diameter intake to allow for velocity increase or vice versa! Longer smaller intake...it's the straw effect. When blowing spot balls you want a smaller longer straw to increase preasure and allow it to fly further, faster. Using a milkshake straw will just be too big and a coffee straw will just be too small. I may have just confused myself again but we should play with this intake size topic a little more.
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Old 11-06-2014, 10:09 AM   #406
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No, i think you're onto something there actually, especially with the "economy" tuning on the cams you mentioned.

unfortunately the only way to really test this is to get someone with a GT TB to do a couple of datalogs with maybe like, stock, air raid and steeda intakes and compare the differences between them. I do think you may actually be on to something there, because a 3.5" intake isnt a restriction for a 3.7L v6 anyways... hmmmm
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Old 11-06-2014, 12:48 PM   #407
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I've had to reread this 12 different times to come to this idea.

We all know we have valve timing. It changes at a certain rpm or oil preasure.
(Not sure which it is) so while in "economy " timing we see big gains from the larger TB. Once the timing changes more for performance we see it suffer and not really help. This timing difference affects the velocities between the two different TBS and this is why most don't see a resonator for a bigger TB.
However i wonder if intake piping size and length have anything to do with it as well. With a larger TB maybe we need a shorter, smaller diameter intake to allow for velocity increase or vice versa! Longer smaller intake...it's the straw effect. When blowing spot balls you want a smaller longer straw to increase preasure and allow it to fly further, faster. Using a milkshake straw will just be too big and a coffee straw will just be too small. I may have just confused myself again but we should play with this intake size topic a little more.
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No, i think you're onto something there actually, especially with the "economy" tuning on the cams you mentioned.

unfortunately the only way to really test this is to get someone with a GT TB to do a couple of datalogs with maybe like, stock, air raid and steeda intakes and compare the differences between them. I do think you may actually be on to something there, because a 3.5" intake isnt a restriction for a 3.7L v6 anyways... hmmmm
I totally agree with both of you and this is exactly what I was trying to say originally. Fintile did a good job talking it out with analogies. Data logs and controlled experimentation is necessary to really answer this question, we cannot guess this answer based on intuition. Bigger does not necessarily mean better. (But maybe it does, only a test will tell.) Base model or not, I don't believe Ford is paying their engineers to just route and connect pipes. It's a more analytical design than that.

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Old 11-06-2014, 02:43 PM   #408
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I don't see the 80m working I mean clearly bbk would have made there bigger..

airaid cai, bbk tb, bbk shortys, Ford cut/clamp, magnaflow comp catback. bama tunes, 3.73s,
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Old 11-06-2014, 02:49 PM   #409
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I don't see the 80m working I mean clearly bbk would have made there bigger..

airaid cai, bbk tb, bbk shortys, Ford cut/clamp, magnaflow comp catback. bama tunes, 3.73s,
The argument is less of is the 80mm better than the 73mm BBK produces and more of, will the 80mm work comparably to the 73mm at a fraction of the price.

I certainly don't expect greater gains from the 80 over the 73, but I am curious to find out if the 80 becomes detrimental.

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Old 11-06-2014, 02:51 PM   #410
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I can bust out my calipers this weekend if no one else does, but i have a sneaking suspension the distance between those fins in the IM opening is somewhere in the neighborhood of 73mm. BBK likely didnt want to make it mandatory to shave those off to install their TB.
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Old 11-06-2014, 02:54 PM   #411
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I can bust out my calipers this weekend if no one else does, but i have a sneaking suspension the distance between those fins in the IM opening is somewhere in the neighborhood of 73mm. BBK likely didnt want to make it mandatory to shave those off to install their TB.
I would tend to agree with that. They made it large enough to help, but not too large as to require permanent modification, that would turn a lot of people away from the product.

That said, that still doesn't prove the 80 is beneficial by itself. I believe it is, but I need more proof to say 100%.

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Old 11-06-2014, 03:17 PM   #412
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I can bust out my calipers this weekend if no one else does, but i have a sneaking suspension the distance between those fins in the IM opening is somewhere in the neighborhood of 73mm. BBK likely didnt want to make it mandatory to shave those off to install their TB.
My stock intake is 73mm, and has no fins. My ported intake is closer to 77mm (also has no fins).
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Old 11-06-2014, 04:01 PM   #413
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Interesting ...
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Old 11-06-2014, 04:42 PM   #414
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In case this helps...

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Old 11-06-2014, 04:46 PM   #415
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Anyone know what the fins do exactly? I take it they're not for decorative purposes. My guess would be that they make the turbulent flow laminar. Or maybe induce swirling at just the right way to send air where it needs to go in the IM.
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Old 11-06-2014, 04:52 PM   #416
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Anyone know what the fins do exactly? I take it they're not for decorative purposes. My guess would be that they make the turbulent flow laminar. Or maybe induce swirling at just the right way to send air where it needs to go in the IM.
A few years back the popular thought was to reduce NVH. I don't know when they implemented the fins, mine didn't have them. (5/10 build date)
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Old 11-06-2014, 04:56 PM   #417
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Mine was built in 2011 as a 2012 and I have them
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Old 11-06-2014, 05:12 PM   #418
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It is to smooth the airflow, GT and Boss have them too.

Just went out and measured Valerie's 2014 V6, and either my calipers are slightly off, or these are the measurements I got:


74mm was the diameter horizontally across the IM opening. I set the calipers to 73 to make sure I wasn't measuring at an angle or something, and as I rolled it back and forth, one edge would always end up inside the opening, so I'm going with 74mm.


50mm was the vertical distance in the middle between the TB opening. The way the fins are shaped also gives reason to believe they are shaped that way to clear an opening TB.
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