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Old 10-15-2014, 01:16 PM   #36
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Got off the phone with Borla. The tech said the XR1 is not like the ATAK. He gave me the speel about how the atak is tuned to my specific car and blah blah blah. He also said the GT over axles are a bad idea.

I'll do my own research on that and I sent MPT an email asking their opinion as well.

We shall see.

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Old 10-15-2014, 01:33 PM   #37
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3.7 Cyclone over on Fast Ford Muscle has the GT overaxels on his convertable...dont think its done anything negative for him...his car pulls but it may be a different muffler setup. I think he has a chambered muffler so backpreasure will still be there a little...
Whats the overall size of the GT H pipe again? Im under the impression it starts at 2.5" and then expands to 2.75 down to where it meets the overaxels
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Old 10-15-2014, 01:35 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fintile View Post
3.7 Cyclone over on Fast Ford Muscle has the GT overaxels on his convertable...dont think its done anything negative for him...his car pulls but it may be a different muffler setup. I think he has a chambered muffler so backpreasure will still be there a little...
Whats the overall size of the GT H pipe again? Im under the impression it starts at 2.5" and then expands to 2.75 down to where it meets the overaxels
Right, it's 2.5 to 2.75. Which .5" over stock shouldn't reduce the flow velocity that badly. Now if I went to the 3" that definitely would.

My system now is 2.5 all the way back and I didn't notice any losses.

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Old 10-15-2014, 02:01 PM   #39
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Here's an helpful link comparing sound and hp levels across different mufflers:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...tml?styleid=27

|| ~BlackOnBlack~ ||
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Old 10-15-2014, 02:19 PM   #40
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I found this article explaining scavenging and backpressure.

The expert notes towards the bottom seem to suggest that backpressure loss is helpful.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...tqcnhURIuFrB1w

Of course, I'm sure there has to be a median, I'm not expecting to strap a sewer drainage pipe to the car for gains.

Word of warning though, the article is pretty high level, any engineers around here might enjoy it lol

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Old 10-16-2014, 06:24 PM   #41
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So, over GT axle pipes ordered along with some GT ATAKs to keep the consistent pipe diameter and prevent any tapering.

Here's to hoping this doesn't turn into a mess. I'll update once everything is bolted on and ready to go. Should be some time next weekend.
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Old 10-16-2014, 06:46 PM   #42
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Awesome! I'm really interested to see how it turns out. Where did you get the GT ATAKs?

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Old 10-16-2014, 06:47 PM   #43
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Awesome! I'm really interested to see how it turns out. Where did you get the GT ATAKs?

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autoanything. Chatted with the lady, she said Borla restricts their coupon pricing so she couldn't give me the 15% coupon but she did beat Jegs' price for me.
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Old 10-16-2014, 08:46 PM   #44
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autoanything. Chatted with the lady, she said Borla restricts their coupon pricing so she couldn't give me the 15% coupon but she did beat Jegs' price for me.
Awesome! Hopefully you got a good price on 'em. Did she beat it by $1?
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Old 10-16-2014, 08:49 PM   #45
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Awesome! Hopefully you got a good price on 'em. Did she beat it by $1?
Yeah, the best she could do was a dollar under.

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Old 10-16-2014, 08:51 PM   #46
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Yeah, the best she could do was a dollar under.

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Just remember, if the price drops (which it will) on ANY site in the next year, you can get the difference!
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Old 10-16-2014, 08:55 PM   #47
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Just remember, if the price drops (which it will) on ANY site in the next year, you can get the difference!
Very true. I'll have to make note on that and check it occasionally.

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Old 10-17-2014, 08:21 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by JoeyM91 View Post
I found this article explaining scavenging and backpressure.

The expert notes towards the bottom seem to suggest that backpressure loss is helpful.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...tqcnhURIuFrB1w

Of course, I'm sure there has to be a median, I'm not expecting to strap a sewer drainage pipe to the car for gains.

Word of warning though, the article is pretty high level, any engineers around here might enjoy it lol

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Total nerdgasm lol, that article is very well written.

At cam overlap, if you look at Figure 1., there is a reflected pressure wave traveling backwards towards the engine.
This reflected wave or "REVERSION" is what contaminates the intake charge at cam overlap and reduces or dilutes
the oxygen content coming into the cylinder. Less oxygen going in means less power. Notice the pressure at the
exhaust valve is still negative but less negative than before. This reflected exhaust wave or pulse is the second
backpressure we experience and again reduces exhaust flow speed or energy because the exhaust pulse must now
push against this pressure to move forward. A loss in flow speed means less negative pressure, or vacuum, or suck.

Cam overlap is what makes power due to reversion. When the exhaust can pull a strong enough vacuum on the cylinder when both valves are open, it can essentially create a "ram air" effect into the cylinder and create more power. This is how its possible for the 5.0 to be making significantly over 100 whp per liter, a feet that is impressive on any Na engine. You think Chevy engines make good power? Tell me how many are making over 100 whp per liter all motor the perks of VVT on a DOHC motor. On a car equipped with VVT as sophisticated as ours, we can tune out overlap on the low end to avoid the "dillution" i highlighted above, but tune it back in on the top end to make power. A fixed cam motor, such as a Chevy LS cannot. This is why you hear them "cam" at idle. What you're actually hearing is the poor combustion due to the overlap. That's all a "ghost cam" tune on these cars is, tuning in overlap at idle.



However, he soon changed his mind when any increase in back pressure proved to decrease torque on a properly tuned engine.
What increasing the backpressure does do is dramatically quiet
the exhaust


To provide context for this quote, the researcher originally equipped his test engine with a "0 back pressure exhaust... something not easily doable on a street car." So, here we see back pressure lowered peak torque, but but but... doesnt that go against everything we've always heard? We'll get to that in a bit lol.

As you'll see later, very few exhausts are capable of delivering such a low backpressure on a road car. Even with this small amount of backpressure, peak torque dropped by 4 per cent and peak
power by 5 per cent. He then changed the exhaust to give 2.5-psi backpressure. Torque and power decreased again, both dropping by 7 per cent over having zero backpressure. These results were achieved on a large engine with a large overlap cam - one of the types some people
suggest is 'supposed' to like backpressure.

So here we have further testing showing that the more back pressure introduced, the more peak torque is lowered on a "properly tuned engine," which is the important part to note.


Just as with headers, creating a system that will provide the best of all worlds at all throttle positions and rpm ranges is impossible. It's all going to be a trade-off. You can tune for the throttle positions and
rpm ranges where you desire the greatest performance, but you'll sacrifice performance at the other
end of the rpm range.

This is the key to the whole article, the trade off. A small exhaust pipe will have an optimal velocity at lower engine speeds, and create more "low end" torque. A large exhaust pipe will have optimal velocity at higher rpms, and create more "high end" torque. Lets take a look at the formula for horsepower:
HP = (torque x rpm) / 5252

How do we make more horsepower at higher rpm? Simple, we increase the torque at higher rpm. How do we increase the torque? Simple, increase the velocity. Torque is a derivative of airspeed velocity, both intake and exhaust. The faster air comes into, and leaves, the engine the more torque it will make. This plays in heavily with the overlap of the cam, and why the entire engine works as a system. If you have a big fat open exhaust and a chunky, lumpy cam with a TON of overlap, where do we honestly expect that engine to perform? At low speeds there's not enough air to create substantial vacuum / reversion, so or system is inefficient. At high RPMS however, with a substantial amount of flow, our system can then operate with high levels of reversion, and benefit tremendously from the healthy amount of overlap. Its all a balance.
Back pressure does not make "more torque," and is in fact not a good thing for any performance engine. All changing the exhaust diameter can achieve is essentially tuning where the torque is, in very crude terms.

Note: i've actually completely forgotten what this thread was about, and this is probably a major threadjack, but i appreciate everyone bearing with me while i geek out for a bit. Carry on!


Edit: Ahh yes, i've just remembered my point! Basically an engine set up as the 3.7 is benefits more from a "smaller" exhaust because it spends more time in ranges where that provides more "useable" torque. Going with a 2.75" or 3" on this engine would be beneficial if it had the means: cam, cylinder head, fat headers, rpm, of flowing enough exhaust to benefit from the later torque peak a larger exhaust would deliver. Since it cant however, it proves only to be detrimental to current performance levels.
Its like... getting that cool new weapon in a video game, but its level 10 and you're only level 8 ... its there ... you just cant use it.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:37 AM   #49
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Very nice take on that Volt. My thought process is that my low end may suffer slightly, but due to the fact I have long tube headers and now a shorter gear ratio (3.73) my peak power is already towards the upper end of the powerband and due to the gears will get there and stay there more often.

My logic might be flawed there. I also wonder if when I decide to upgrade my throttle body, if that will help "even" things out. But I suppose it will just change the total volume of incoming air, not necessarily the exhaust pressure going out.

All in all, I do plan on going the turbo forced induction route, so once in at that point, I think the larger exhaust may be beneficial.

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Old 10-17-2014, 09:24 AM   #50
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DAMN Volt! LOL That was quite the read. Now in unique situations lets say (speaking spicificly about the 3.7. Someone wants a full 2.5" setup but instead they have a GT H pipe connected to stock 2.25" over axels and 2.5" axel backs. How would you gauge or measure the avg exhaust size/ flow? Does it even work like that or would the oversized H pipe create more preasure do to it being connected to the much smaller over axels?
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Old 10-17-2014, 09:33 AM   #51
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I think the best way to describe this is to think of it this way: At any given point, the system is only as free flowing as its most restrictive point. Obviously having the diameter change a few times is going to screw with things, but if it will screw with them to the point its noticeable is beyond me. And even then, "average exhaust flow" Would vary at literally every throttle position at every RPM. Would be quite some tricky math im feeling.
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Old 10-17-2014, 09:37 AM   #52
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Going from my aftermarket V6 2.5" to stock GT 2.75" I don't think there would be that big of a pressure loss. I would definitely feel it going from 2.5 to the aftermarket GT'S 3" though.

I'm conflicted. On one hand I want to continue and try this, on the other I want to send everything back and get the V6 ATAKS and slap on my old 2.25" over axles lol

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Old 10-17-2014, 09:42 AM   #53
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So do we have any type of notable gains going to 2.5" catback over stock?


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Old 10-17-2014, 09:45 AM   #54
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So do we have any type of notable gains going to 2.5" catback over stock?


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If you're just stock, not really. If you have headers, midpipe etc, then you might see some very small gains.

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Old 10-17-2014, 09:55 AM   #55
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I think the best way to describe this is to think of it this way: At any given point, the system is only as free flowing as its most restrictive point. Obviously having the diameter change a few times is going to screw with things, but if it will screw with them to the point its noticeable is beyond me. And even then, "average exhaust flow" Would vary at literally every throttle position at every RPM. Would be quite some tricky math im feeling.
See i was hoping to hear it would balance out. Is the GT H pipe 2.5" or 2.75"?

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If you're just stock, not really. If you have headers, midpipe etc, then you might see some very small gains.

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small gains but deeper tone
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Old 10-17-2014, 09:57 AM   #56
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See i was hoping to hear it would balance out. Is the GT H pipe 2.5" or 2.75"?



small gains but deeper tone
2.75. Which also seems to be what AM claims my aftermarket X pipe is. Which I have my doubts. I believe it's actually 2.5" just the way it fits the catback.

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Old 10-17-2014, 10:06 AM   #57
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See i was hoping to hear it would balance out. Is the GT H pipe 2.5" or 2.75"?

Both, please note my crude MS paint skills lol.
Red = 2.75" Blue = 2.5"

Interesting how they have that step down in there. Wonder what that's all about
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:08 AM   #58
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Strange. That's just more constriction.

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Old 10-17-2014, 10:21 AM   #59
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Both, please note my crude MS paint skills lol.
Red = 2.75" Blue = 2.5"

Interesting how they have that step down in there. Wonder what that's all about
interesting, so its only 2.75" in the actual "H" portion of the exhaust. lol so having my factory over axels might in deed be restricting flow just a bit.
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:25 AM   #60
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The OEMs do some strange things for strange reasons. Hard to know what the reason was, Manufacturing, cost, spacing, power, sound.... any endless number of things. The Terminators came with 2.5" catbacks though, so i doubt its hurting anything. Keep in mind also, i believe i've said this before but forgot if it was in this thread, that a single 2.5" catback will support 400 whp on a turbo 4 cylinder. 3" obviously makes it easier, but i've seen it done more than once.

Relate that to the fact that the 3.7L has TWO 2.25" and/or 2.5" exhausts, and you can see even that is way more than enough exhaust considering you're only feeding 1.85L per bank.
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:29 AM   #61
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Well dangit lol. With that information and I just heard back from Ken at MPT. The consensus is this is not a good route to take. So, I'm grabbing my old over axles and switching my order to the V6 2.25 ATAKS. Dunno what I'll do with the GT over axles, but I'll figure it out.

Here is Ken at MPT:

The guys at Borla are correct. 2.75” is probably over-kill for a naturally aspirated 3.7L. It’s probably over-kill for a forced induction 3.7 even.

*

To give you an idea of the amount of flow that size piping will support. Our Ecoboost F150 runs a single 3” exhaust split into two 2” pipes after the Magnaflow muffler and over the axle. Our truck makes 600 whp and over 600 lb/ft tq at the wheels on nitrous, and has no signs of exhaust restriction.

*

We also recently finished tuning a twin turbo*2013 GT that made nearly 1200 whp. Hos car runs dual 3” from front to back, and also has an electric cut-out on each side. At 11 psi and 900 whp, we saw no performance increase by opening the exhaust cut-outs. Only at 16 psi and 1000 whp did we see an increase in performance. Opening the cut-outs gained 186 whp.

*

So, as you can see 2.75” piping is designed to support a pretty extreme amount of power. Going too large slows exhaust flow, which reduces scavenging, reduces back-pressure, increases noise, and typically decreases power. This is also something that can’t be “tuned out”.

*

Personally I’d run 2.25” all the way back, and 2.5” if you’re thinking of forced induction in the future.

*

Ken Osborne




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Old 10-17-2014, 10:33 AM   #62
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How much for the GT over axle pipes?
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:36 AM   #63
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How much for the GT over axle pipes?
PM me an offer. If I can at least get close to breaking even, they're yours.

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Old 10-17-2014, 10:47 AM   #64
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Whew.... the eBay sellers I got my OAP will take returns. So I won't lose my *** on this debacle. Lol

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Old 10-17-2014, 10:52 AM   #65
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Whew.... the eBay sellers I got my OAP will take returns. So I won't lose my *** on this debacle. Lol

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That's great man. My advice would have been to list on a Facebook page, or Craigslist. Some people with V6s see GT parts and will do anything to get them.
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Old 10-17-2014, 11:03 AM   #66
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Wow...so then my restriction isnt from exhaust flow but rather from the intake side. I really need to get my intake manifolds ported out.
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Old 10-18-2014, 04:25 PM   #67
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Is the dynomax catback any good it's like only $380?


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Old 10-18-2014, 04:32 PM   #68
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Is the dynomax catback any good it's like only $380?


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Looks like a quality kit. It's a little quiet for my tastes though. I was just going to use the over axles originally.

2013 Ford Mustang 3.7 V6 Exhaust - Dynomax Catbac…: http://youtu.be/mvMdKy9j93U

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Old 10-18-2014, 04:41 PM   #69
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Looks like a quality kit. It's a little quiet for my tastes though. I was just going to use the over axles originally.

2013 Ford Mustang 3.7 V6 Exhaust - Dynomax Catbac…: http://youtu.be/mvMdKy9j93U

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Yea I'm trying to find 2.5" overaxles but might just goto a exhaust shop and get quoted


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Old 10-18-2014, 05:07 PM   #70
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Yea I'm trying to find 2.5" overaxles but might just goto a exhaust shop and get quoted


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You can buy 4' sections of pipe from Jegs or Summit for around $50-75 per section. You'll probably need about 4 sections total and then a good exhaust shop can use a mandrel and bend and weld them into shape.

How much a shop will charge you to do that, I can't really say. I was going to get a quote on that but plans changed lol

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