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Old 10-17-2014, 10:13 PM   #1
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Interesting mpg question

I have always been under the impression that putting a car in neutral down hill would be an effective way to increase MPGs, but my friend brought up a good point the other day. He said that it would actually be more effective to keep it in gear. His reasoning is that the car will not supply gas when your foot is off the gas and the actual momentum of the car will keep your car running. He claimed that you would waste more gas in nuetral because you wouldn't have the momentum coming from the the back wheels/Trans and therefore the car would need to supply more fuel to keep from stalling. So my question is theoretically if I was on a continuous down hill slope going 70mph would I get better MPGs in nuetral (500 RPMs) or in 6th gear (2000 RPMs) with no throttle? I really hope this makes sense. I am very interested in your responses.

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Old 10-17-2014, 10:42 PM   #2
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Most new cars cut fuel when coasting down hill. Neutral vs in gear while coasting is negligible at best.

There is also the safety aspect, if you need to maneuver and the car is in neutral it puts you in a potentially hazardous situation.

Also back pressure can save your brakes.
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Old 10-17-2014, 11:07 PM   #3
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Makes sense.

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Old 10-17-2014, 11:37 PM   #4
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Besides the safety factor, it is illegal to coast downhill in a neutral gear in some states. Ain't worth the risk imo. Just my 2 cents.

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Old 10-17-2014, 11:54 PM   #5
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Just a theoretical question

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Old 10-18-2014, 12:04 AM   #6
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I coast out of gear with my engine off. Do not attempt unless competent, and able to do so safely*.

It's all about how much fuel you are using, and what you want to do. So, if your GPH is 1.0 while in gear and slowing down, but 1.5 while coasting but NOT slowing down, one won't need that speed built up again. If you use more fuel getting back up to speed, then it wasn't worth it most likely.

-Approaching a stop sign/red light? In gear uses almost no fuel, slows you down (meaning less brake use) and offers you a better chance to hit a green.

-Big hill, down hill on the highway? One can speed up and get better MPG. At times in WV, I have to get in gear to stop doing 90+ in a 60. Not like pop in 6th, like 6th, to 5th, and even down to 4th to get closer to the speed limit.

I would use an OBDii reader, and look at GPH. Over a distance, what uses more? Really, there is more involved than one just being better than the other. I use both daily, along with engine off coasting. If I want to keep speed, EOC. Coming to a light or traffic is slowing, in gear engine braking. I want to maintain speed but not worth cutting the engine, then clutch in coasting.


*I usually keep the clutch FULLY in, and in gear, so if I needed to, I could let the clutch out and have power fast. I also do NOT advise ever turning the key to shut the engine off, use a kill switch. That means the wheel won't lock, air bags still work, so on.

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Old 10-18-2014, 01:25 AM   #7
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In gear and clutch to the floor drops it to idle rpms while going 60-70mph. It makes a huge impact on MPG doing this, though your leg might need some training since it'll be spending more time on the pedal than off of it

The trick, though, is matching the speed when you put it back in - you need a little gas to make a coasting/clutch in and drivetrain engaged transition smoothly. The first few times you'll make the car lurch badly, almost guaranteed. It does require 100% attention to drive like this.

But to the OP's question, if you disengage the drivetrain from the gears, you always do better by a small amount due to lower friction losses. In theory, at least. Often doing this leads to you losing speed and then having to add more gas at the wrong time to get over that hill. Often in gear and feathering the throttle so lightly that you can barely feel it engage nets better actual MPG. (we're talking literal egg on the pedal though - like 1/2 what the cruise control presses down at its lightest setting)

That's to say that a fraction of a MPG better compared to driving style, which is at least a 5-10 mpg difference if one does it right. I deal with Los Angeles rush hour traffic for two hours every day and due to a few of these hyper-milling tricks, I still average 25 combined.
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Old 10-18-2014, 10:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOberlander View Post
In gear and clutch to the floor drops it to idle rpms while going 60-70mph. It makes a huge impact on MPG doing this, though your leg might need some training since it'll be spending more time on the pedal than off of it

The trick, though, is matching the speed when you put it back in - you need a little gas to make a coasting/clutch in and drivetrain engaged transition smoothly. The first few times you'll make the car lurch badly, almost guaranteed. It does require 100% attention to drive like this.

But to the OP's question, if you disengage the drivetrain from the gears, you always do better by a small amount due to lower friction losses. In theory, at least. Often doing this leads to you losing speed and then having to add more gas at the wrong time to get over that hill. Often in gear and feathering the throttle so lightly that you can barely feel it engage nets better actual MPG. (we're talking literal egg on the pedal though - like 1/2 what the cruise control presses down at its lightest setting)

That's to say that a fraction of a MPG better compared to driving style, which is at least a 5-10 mpg difference if one does it right. I deal with Los Angeles rush hour traffic for two hours every day and due to a few of these hyper-milling tricks, I still average 25 combined.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't being in gear with the clutch all the way in the same as being out of gear(neutral)?

And I agree with your 3rd paragraph. I have been driving and staying in gear(at points where I may have originally thrown it in nuetral) for the last few months and I seem to get slightly better MPGs. I am getting 25.6(and that is the readout so more like 26.6 realistically) on a little over half a tank. Driving like a grandma though!! 40-45 city 60-65 highway. Also a lot of 1st to 3rd shifts off the start. I have the 3.31 gearing and 1st to 2nd is too short and revs quick.
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Old 10-18-2014, 11:50 AM   #9
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The MPG computer in the V6 is set for the performance package by default. So it's expecting 18+ inch tires and 3.31 gears. It consistently reads 7-8% low on base models. The real way to do this is to get on Fuelly or a similar site and track actual gas put in and miles driven. I use the same station and always fill it on the slower setting, let it shut off, turn it on again and end when it stops the second time (usually 1-2 seconds later). No issues with over-filling and fairly consistent if done at the same station.

The reason in gear and clutch in is better is because shifting in and out of neutral at 60+mph can end up with a lot of instances where your driveshaft makes clunking sounds and the transition is quite jarring. Doubly so if you don't have a shift kit installed and it wants to suddenly bind on a shift. From a practical standpoint, out of gear is out of gear. Getting back in is a lot quicker and smoother with the clutch than the gears. Being smoother uses a bit less gas, naturally.

Most people don't bother, though, as this does increase clutch wear by a small amount, and precise shifting takes a lot of attention for most drivers.

There are a ton of tricks, of course. If you're doing it right, the car should be rolling along like a big Mercedes. Almost floating along and barely using any gas. The three biggest, though are physical.
1 - clean car. Wax is a good thing. Slippery car equals less friction.
2 - tires at 80% of maximum on the sidewall as a minimum. Ford has pressures listed on the door sill that are at least 5-8psi lower than the tires should be.
3 - change your air filter every 4-6 months if you live in a major city. My MPG dropped suddenly by 2-3mpg and it took me a coupe of weeks to figure out that it was the air filter. I changed it and my first tank right after that was 28mpg combined.
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Old 10-18-2014, 01:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOberlander View Post
The MPG computer in the V6 is set for the performance package by default. So it's expecting 18+ inch tires and 3.31 gears. It consistently reads 7-8% low on base models. The real way to do this is to get on Fuelly or a similar site and track actual gas put in and miles driven. I use the same station and always fill it on the slower setting, let it shut off, turn it on again and end when it stops the second time (usually 1-2 seconds later). No issues with over-filling and fairly consistent if done at the same station.

The reason in gear and clutch in is better is because shifting in and out of neutral at 60+mph can end up with a lot of instances where your driveshaft makes clunking sounds and the transition is quite jarring. Doubly so if you don't have a shift kit installed and it wants to suddenly bind on a shift. From a practical standpoint, out of gear is out of gear. Getting back in is a lot quicker and smoother with the clutch than the gears. Being smoother uses a bit less gas, naturally.

Most people don't bother, though, as this does increase clutch wear by a small amount, and precise shifting takes a lot of attention for most drivers.

There are a ton of tricks, of course. If you're doing it right, the car should be rolling along like a big Mercedes. Almost floating along and barely using any gas. The three biggest, though are physical.
1 - clean car. Wax is a good thing. Slippery car equals less friction.
2 - tires at 80% of maximum on the sidewall as a minimum. Ford has pressures listed on the door sill that are at least 5-8psi lower than the tires should be.
3 - change your air filter every 4-6 months if you live in a major city. My MPG dropped suddenly by 2-3mpg and it took me a coupe of weeks to figure out that it was the air filter. I changed it and my first tank right after that was 28mpg combined.
Ya I do my calculations everytime I fill up. Got an app about 4 months ago that does it and in those 4 months I average 19.99. But driving like a grandma I can get a little over 25. And all highway road trip about 32. Not horrible but it is noticable over a 2.73. Do you have a 2.73? What kind of driving (conservative or agressive)? Percent highway/city?

I just changed my filter after 11 months 16500 miles and did not see any real difference in mpg.

Planning on a tune and maybe a CAI. Hopefully that helps.

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Old 10-18-2014, 03:54 PM   #11
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MPG

I saw this post yesterday and really did not know what to think of it but I was on the Fords website and actually found your answer. I was just reading fuel tips and saw this.

"Stay in gear when stopping While shifting into Neutral and coasting to a stop sounds like it would save fuel, the opposite is true: Many modern fuel-injected vehicles go into a “fuel cutoff” mode when the engine senses that the vehicle is in gear, the rpm is above idle, and the throttle is closed. Shifting to Neutral may cancel that mode, so keep it in gear"

- See more at: Gas Saving Tips - How to Save Gas | Ford.com
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Old 10-18-2014, 03:59 PM   #12
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Well there you go!

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Old 10-18-2014, 04:38 PM   #13
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autos let u shift into neutral? wth only manuals should have this available not in auto that's just dangerous. plus ppl get auto do less work so why bother "shifting" to neutral?


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Old 10-18-2014, 04:45 PM   #14
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We aren't talking about autos. And you actually can shift an auto into neutral.

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Old 10-18-2014, 07:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOberlander View Post
The three biggest, though are physical.
1 - clean car. Wax is a good thing. Slippery car equals less friction.
2 - tires at 80% of maximum on the sidewall as a minimum. Ford has pressures listed on the door sill that are at least 5-8psi lower than the tires should be.
3 - change your air filter every 4-6 months if you live in a major city. My MPG dropped suddenly by 2-3mpg and it took me a coupe of weeks to figure out that it was the air filter. I changed it and my first tank right after that was 28mpg combined.
All if these are incorrect. I am at a party, so not planning on posting sources right now, but will in the near future.

CAI hurt my mileage.

Depending on the situation varies the best use of neutral, or engine braking.

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Old 10-18-2014, 08:30 PM   #16
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1; http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/b...s/viewall.html

2; that number is for ride comfort. Max sidewall PSI is the best for FE, or even a bit above. Just don't go crazy, Ecomodder testers have found little advantage going much higher than say 5-10%.

3; http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/pdfs/...02_26_2009.pdf


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Old 10-19-2014, 01:52 AM   #17
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1: Interesting article, but quite a few articles say the opposite. I think the jury is out on this one. Though, it might just be the effect of less dirt on the car. Cars where I live do get a visible layer of grit on them in two weeks.

2: True, though I did say *at least* 80% as a minimum. Ford's 20-something PSI is downright silly.

3: That's also an interesting article. Though it did note that the article states that the acceleration times were significantly longer.

The tests seem to not take time limitations into account and just let the car take however long it requires to do the test with the throttle the same between the two runs. That looks good for removing testing variables, but in real life, if you have 5 seconds max to get into traffic , you hit the gas harder to compensate for a weaker than normal engine.

So there's no difference on paper. But hardly anyone that I know of doesn't just hit the gas harder to accelerate like what they are used to.
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Old 10-19-2014, 07:00 AM   #18
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1; I used k believe that, also. When people went to a wind tunnel and found it wasn't true, that I believe. There was some myth busters stuff out there on the subject, but those people like to "forget" about tons of variables and are a bit abstract in their testing procedures. I've never actually gotten angry watching a TV show, before myth busters. Some good, some enraging. (You are welcome to believe what you want, but my judge and jury was the wind tunnel lol)

2; Fords side sticker PSI is 38 I believe, while my max sidewall is 55 (if I remember correctly).

If I ran 38 as recommended, then I'd be down 30+% from the sidewall max. 80% of the sticker would be only 31...that is dangerous to drive on. (More road service means more heat means higher chance of blowing out. Good for a 1/4 mile at a time, bad for driving)

I relative of mind bought a brand new car, and after having it for a month couldn't figure out what was wrong with it. Then a weird light came on. She then asked me to show her how to put air in her tires. She had 19-18 PSI in her tires!!!! I'd sooner run 65 than 19!

3; I don't know if I'd call that an article, as much a government study. As often as bigwigs waste money and make poor choices, here is a case I am glad they did lol. I haven't read that in a while, but I believe FE was unchanged by the clogged filters because engines use less fuel when there is less air. Getting IN to traffic is usually a short period vs driving along with traffic, be at 60 or 5 mph. And this one you'll have to trust me on, but my G1 Insight uses a LOT more fuel the usual to pick up speed, but I still average 70+ in by it being more efficient to drive overall.

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Old 10-19-2014, 08:38 AM   #19
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I'm probably way off course here """BUT"""

Why in the world would you want a Mustang if Miles per Gallon was soooooo important????????

Would you not be happier with a C-Max or Prius or some other electric car that is made for more miles per gallon and not the More fun per mile a Mustang offers????

Stuff like coasting down a hill with automatic transmission is not really good for the transmission. ( It never was) It also is not really legal or safe.
Coasting with a manual is also not really good for the transmission and also not legal or safe.
Pushing the clutch in is just plain stupid and really hard on the throw-out bearing as well as the transmission.

I just can't see going to all that to save about one ounce of gas.
ULTArc does it because he has a purpose and really works hard at getting the best MPG. It is what he does for his fun. I don;t think anyone else goes to the extent he does for MPG.

Driving a Mustang to try and save gas????????? DUH !!!
Drive a Mustang to have fun.????????YES

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Old 10-19-2014, 10:56 AM   #20
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Believe me, I drive my car hard and have fun but if I'm just driving to work why not try and conserve. Just more money for other things. You are right I do enjoy seeing what kind of MPG I can get out of my car when I do drive conservative. I just found the topic interesting and wanted to hear what others thought.

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Old 10-19-2014, 04:18 PM   #21
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Ronnie, buying a Mustang FOR MPG (like me) needs some drive and dedication...but I think everyone should try to get better MPG when they are not tearing things up.

I really have no purpose. I'm not out to "get the man" or sell a product. Honestly, I think it's stupid to get a Prius for anyone who knows HOW to drive. A Prius is for someone who knows how to use one pedal, like an on off switch. Nothing in between.

A 6 speed Mustang offers one to EOC, handle corners like a champ, costs less, is more engaging, boosts testosterone, and even does less damage to the environment to create.

But that's my opinion. Honestly, a Focus ST would do better, especially with less drive train loss and a better platform to make the best aerodynamic design, but I prefer rear wheel drive over everything else. Most important is (by a hair) rear wheel drive, followed by a standard transmission. But again, my opinion.

At the end of the day, a Mustang can compete with a Prius. A Prius can never do what a Mustang can.

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Old 10-19-2014, 04:46 PM   #22
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Like another posted said, coasting down hill can be illegal in some states. And assuming that its a constant down hill you are going to be picking up speed consistently. If you have your foot on the brake its going to wears them down much faster.

This is why it is illegal to do so. Often brakes will go out or over heat and its always a better idea to use engine braking to keep the car at a constant speed and put less stress on the brakes. But yes i would assume you would get better MPG while in N or with the clutch in.
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Old 10-19-2014, 05:39 PM   #23
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I drive to enjoy my Mustang

I don't try to save gas and I just enjoy the way my car performs. Without trying and just driving I get a great 24 to 27 miles per gallon around town. I got a true 29.6 on my trip to Pennsylvania.
I have got 34MPG a couple of years ago when I just cruised through the Maryland countryside on all the small back farm roads doing 35 to 45 miles per hour. I was sight seeing and really enjoying my Mustang and it was great.
I have a 2.73 rear automatic 3.7 V6 and enjoy the heck out of it.
I see some are getting 18MPG + or - and I'm sure if they use a pen and paper they are probably getting way better then the computer says they are.

But ,I gotta say.
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Old 10-19-2014, 06:09 PM   #24
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I don't try to save gas and I just enjoy the way my car performs. Without trying and just driving I get a great 24 to 27 miles per gallon around town. I got a true 29.6 on my trip to Pennsylvania.
I have got 34MPG a couple of years ago when I just cruised through the Maryland countryside on all the small back farm roads doing 35 to 45 miles per hour. I was sight seeing and really enjoying my Mustang and it was great.
I have a 2.73 rear automatic 3.7 V6 and enjoy the heck out of it.
I see some are getting 18MPG + or - and I'm sure if they use a pen and paper they are probably getting way better then the computer says they are.

But ,I gotta say.

Ronnie
Nope to your last statement. I do my calculations for every tank and after 4 months I'm averaging 19.99. This is with 3.31 gears however. But ya if I was getting your kind of MPG I wouldn't care as much either.

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Old 10-19-2014, 06:57 PM   #25
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I drive my Mustang the way a Mustang is meant to be driven. With my hair on fire and tires up in smoke.

Complete disregard to gas mileage.
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Old 10-19-2014, 09:17 PM   #26
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I would not think the 3.31 gears would be that much difference !

I have 2.73 gears and the automatic transmission.
It may be that when I'm driving around the auto trans keeps the RPM's down.
With your manual you may be running a higher RPM most of the time due to your driving style.
My window sticker for my 2012 said
CITY mpg 19
HIGHWAY mpg 31
COMBINED 23

I usually get 24 to 27 all of the time.
I guess at 19MPG your are still in Fords guidelines. I don't remember ever getting less then 24MPG.
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Old 10-19-2014, 10:06 PM   #27
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You may be right. The 3.31 revs quickly. For experimental purposes I am keeping my RPMs under 2k on my current tank. I am actually shifting at 1.5k RPMs and cruising the gears at 1k RPMs as much as possible. With a little under a 1/4 tank left my readout says 25.8. That should translate into 26.8 MPGs realistically. That would be awesome but it isn't worth driving like that all the time. I can't wait to get back on the throttle but I need to finish this tank off so I can provide yall with my very scientific results. Haha

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Old 10-20-2014, 07:21 AM   #28
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I'm pretty sure your gonna get better then the 19MPG

But like you said and I agree:
Quote:
it isn't worth driving like that all the time. I can't wait to get back on the throttle
You gotta figure that 19 MPG is still not really bad when you figure in the fun factor.
I try to go at least 2,000 miles before checking out my MPG on a few tanks of gas. I use the write it down method because the computer is usually way wrong most of the time.
I do go on some nice drives at 4 or 5 AM just cruising and listening to my pipes and 50's music on the Sirius. No traffic and just running around 50 mph on some back roads. That will keep my average mpg up a tad. I do get on it once in a while because these Mustangs need a little exercise now & then. I'm sure if I had a stick and 3.31 gears I would probably be getting the same MPG as you.

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Old 10-20-2014, 09:52 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by UltArc View Post
1; I used k believe that, also. When people went to a wind tunnel and found it wasn't true, that I believe. There was some myth busters stuff out there on the subject, but those people like to "forget" about tons of variables and are a bit abstract in their testing procedures. I've never actually gotten angry watching a TV show, before myth busters. Some good, some enraging. (You are welcome to believe what you want, but my judge and jury was the wind tunnel lol)

2; Fords side sticker PSI is 38 I believe, while my max sidewall is 55 (if I remember correctly).

1. If I ran 38 as recommended, then I'd be down 30+% from the sidewall max. 80% of the sticker would be only 31...that is dangerous to drive on. (More road service means more heat means higher chance of blowing out. Good for a 1/4 mile at a time, bad for driving)

I relative of mind bought a brand new car, and after having it for a month couldn't figure out what was wrong with it. Then a weird light came on. She then asked me to show her how to put air in her tires. She had 19-18 PSI in her tires!!!! I'd sooner run 65 than 19!

3 2.; I don't know if I'd call that an article, as much a government study. As often as bigwigs waste money and make poor choices, here is a case I am glad they did lol. I haven't read that in a while, but I believe FE was unchanged by the clogged filters because engines use less fuel when there is less air. Getting IN to traffic is usually a short period vs driving along with traffic, be at 60 or 5 mph. And this one you'll have to trust me on, but my G1 Insight uses a LOT more fuel the usual to pick up speed, but I still average 70+ in by it being more efficient to drive overall.

Luke 11:9-10 “So I say to you ...*search and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

I'm sorry man, i don't want to make this personal, but there is a lot of flawed logic here.

1. Are you suggesting 31-32 psi is dangerous to drive on? Your wording makes this paragraph difficult to decipher, but i believe you are trying to say lower psi = more surface area = more heat due to friction and thus, you will have a blow out? I think not.
On the road course we target 1 psi for every 100 lbs of car hot, which means i go out on a racetrack at 30 psi, and end up around 36-38 with hot tires. So in my heavy GT with 420 whp, my tires only go up 6-8 psi on a racetrack... something that will never happen on the street.
Next, over inflating tires is significantly more dangerous than under inflating them. Ask anyone who has ever blown a sidewall off a tire (i have included a picture) from having too much air in their tire at the track. The only downside to under inflating is faster wear on the tire, and potentially impaired handling.
I also target 32 psi on my street tires and am 10k miles in to them with no excessive wear, and still getting 26 mpg hwy with my GT (3.31), so i'm going to disagree with that point.

2. This is also not true. Its not the amount of air that matters, its the efficiency of the air that is there that matters. Torque improves gas mileage, that's why every single manufacturer is aiming to improve torque in the sub 2000 rpm region. Torque is a factor of airspeed velocity, which a CAI can improve.
Two cars can literally use the exact same amount of air but if one has a higher effective velocity than the other, all else equal, it will have better MPG because of the improved torque. This is why turbo engines are so efficient. Explain to me why a turbo 4 cylinder will return better mpg than an N/a 4 cylinder? The turbo has the potential to use a LOT more air, and thus fuel, but at cruising rpms the turbo naturally increases torque so MPG goes up. I had a 500 whp turbo 4 cylinder returning 35 mpg. Engine efficiency improves mileage, you want the engine to be as open and free breathing as possible.

Note: That picture is a 19 x 9 track pack rim with the OEM 255 pirelli inflated to what i'm assuming was over 40 psi. Completely ripped the sidewall and the tire walked right off the rim. This blow out did not happen at the track, it happened on the street on the way home, i was in front of the car and saw this happen in my rear view.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:10 AM   #30
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Hey Voltwings

Thanks for the information on over inflating the tires.
When I ran at the Drag strip I increased my front tires to 48PSI ( said max 51psi on the sidewall) I lowered my rears to 28 or 30 ( Can't really remember now)

I have the pump in the trunk so before leaving the track I filled them all to 36PSI.

It is good to know not to keep them at a high PSI and Thanks for the information. It will probably save someone a whole lot of grief someday.
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Old 10-20-2014, 04:38 PM   #31
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*sigh*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I'm sorry man, i don't want to make this personal, but there is a lot of flawed logic here.

1. Are you suggesting 31-32 psi is dangerous to drive on? Your wording makes this paragraph difficult to decipher, but i believe you are trying to say lower psi = more surface area = more heat due to friction and thus, you will have a blow out? I think not.
On the road course we target 1 psi for every 100 lbs of car hot, which means i go out on a racetrack at 30 psi, and end up around 36-38 with hot tires. So in my heavy GT with 420 whp, my tires only go up 6-8 psi on a racetrack... something that will never happen on the street.
Next, over inflating tires is significantly more dangerous than under inflating them. Ask anyone who has ever blown a sidewall off a tire (i have included a picture) from having too much air in their tire at the track. The only downside to under inflating is faster wear on the tire, and potentially impaired handling.
I also target 32 psi on my street tires and am 10k miles in to them with no excessive wear, and still getting 26 mpg hwy with my GT (3.31), so i'm going to disagree with that point.

2. This is also not true. Its not the amount of air that matters, its the efficiency of the air that is there that matters. Torque improves gas mileage, that's why every single manufacturer is aiming to improve torque in the sub 2000 rpm region. Torque is a factor of airspeed velocity, which a CAI can improve.
Two cars can literally use the exact same amount of air but if one has a higher effective velocity than the other, all else equal, it will have better MPG because of the improved torque. This is why turbo engines are so efficient. Explain to me why a turbo 4 cylinder will return better mpg than an N/a 4 cylinder? The turbo has the potential to use a LOT more air, and thus fuel, but at cruising rpms the turbo naturally increases torque so MPG goes up. I had a 500 whp turbo 4 cylinder returning 35 mpg. Engine efficiency improves mileage, you want the engine to be as open and free breathing as possible.

Note: That picture is a 19 x 9 track pack rim with the OEM 255 pirelli inflated to what i'm assuming was over 40 psi. Completely ripped the sidewall and the tire walked right off the rim. This blow out did not happen at the track, it happened on the street on the way home, i was in front of the car and saw this happen in my rear view.
1. Every single day? Yes. Have you ever wondered why tire pressure monitoring systems go off when a car has too little air, but don't go off at a too much air point? I can't help but find endless information on low tire pressure. From the NHTSA, and everything in between.

Here are just a couple:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=1

http://us.coopertire.com/Tire-Safety...Inflation.aspx

PDJ from NHTSA:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour..._-rME-Cqijlrrg

2. Cold air is denser. By volume, 1 gallon of cold air vs 1 gallon of warm air, the CA will have more oxygen molecules. Meaning more fuel is needed.

Yes, obviously a less efficient engine uses more fuel...thank you..., but cold air is more dense. Like how people run better times in cooler weather than hot weather. Why a CAI is often preferred, vs a WAI. Why my ~70 HP Honda Insight (70-80 mpg) came with WAI from the factory, while Mustangs come with CAI from the factory.

I am not one to blindly follow Wikipedia, but this is the simplest explanation of it: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warm_air_intake

Here are the first few results on google from doing a search.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...ther-heres-why

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...rence-529.html

http://www.autos.com/aftermarket-par...arm-air-intake

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Old 10-20-2014, 05:56 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I'm sorry man, i don't want to make this personal, but there is a lot of flawed logic here.

1. Are you suggesting 31-32 psi is dangerous to drive on? Your wording makes this paragraph difficult to decipher, but i believe you are trying to say lower psi = more surface area = more heat due to friction and thus, you will have a blow out? I think not.
On the road course we target 1 psi for every 100 lbs of car hot, which means i go out on a racetrack at 30 psi, and end up around 36-38 with hot tires. So in my heavy GT with 420 whp, my tires only go up 6-8 psi on a racetrack... something that will never happen on the street.
Next, over inflating tires is significantly more dangerous than under inflating them. Ask anyone who has ever blown a sidewall off a tire (i have included a picture) from having too much air in their tire at the track. The only downside to under inflating is faster wear on the tire, and potentially impaired handling.
I also target 32 psi on my street tires and am 10k miles in to them with no excessive wear, and still getting 26 mpg hwy with my GT (3.31), so i'm going to disagree with that point.

2. This is also not true. Its not the amount of air that matters, its the efficiency of the air that is there that matters. Torque improves gas mileage, that's why every single manufacturer is aiming to improve torque in the sub 2000 rpm region. Torque is a factor of airspeed velocity, which a CAI can improve.
Two cars can literally use the exact same amount of air but if one has a higher effective velocity than the other, all else equal, it will have better MPG because of the improved torque. This is why turbo engines are so efficient. Explain to me why a turbo 4 cylinder will return better mpg than an N/a 4 cylinder? The turbo has the potential to use a LOT more air, and thus fuel, but at cruising rpms the turbo naturally increases torque so MPG goes up. I had a 500 whp turbo 4 cylinder returning 35 mpg. Engine efficiency improves mileage, you want the engine to be as open and free breathing as possible.

Note: That picture is a 19 x 9 track pack rim with the OEM 255 pirelli inflated to what i'm assuming was over 40 psi. Completely ripped the sidewall and the tire walked right off the rim. This blow out did not happen at the track, it happened on the street on the way home, i was in front of the car and saw this happen in my rear view.
I'm not sure what exactly happened to that tire but I agree that it had way too much air in it. I can tell just by looking at how far the most recent scuffing is down on the sidewall. That must have been one horrible handling car on the track.
I see guys running 40+ psi on the autocross course all of the time. The tires on my car are rated for 51 psi max. If I started with 30 psi in my tires, I would, at the very least, have scuffs halfway down my sidewall, and likely, roll the tire off of the rim on the first lap.
There are several factors in determining the correct tire pressure for track use and the outside air temperature is the biggest factor to consider. I've actually seen the tire pressure rise 3 psi from the sun hitting one side of the car.

I recommended that everyone inflate their tires to whatever the manufacturer recommends for the vehicle and adjust it in one psi increments until you find the "Sweet Spot" for the tire.

Also, you guys who are throwing your cars into neutral and coasting down hills at 70 mph?!?!!?? DON'T DO THAT!!!
As Ronnie already stated, it's EXTREMELY hard on your transmission. It's not getting the same amount of lubrication when it's in neutral as when in gear. Especially automatic transmissions.
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:00 PM   #33
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Automatics usually pump tranny fluid while the engine is on. Engine OFF coasting could be terrible depending on the situation. That would be as bad as running down the drag strip and then turning the car off. The coolant wouldn't be circulating, and just sitting there getting hot.

(I love talking with the pros who bring bags of ice and start their cars periodically to get more of the fluid to cool. Smart guys.)

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Old 10-20-2014, 06:11 PM   #34
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Automatics usually pump tranny fluid while the engine is on. Engine OFF coasting could be terrible depending on the situation. That would be as bad as running down the drag strip and then turning the car off. The coolant wouldn't be circulating, and just sitting there getting hot.

(I love talking with the pros who bring bags of ice and start their cars periodically to get more of the fluid to cool. Smart guys.)

Luke 11:9-10 “So I say to you ...*search and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
They do begin to pump fluid the moment that the engine is turned on but the flow of the fluid is different when the transmission is in Park or Neutral.
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:21 PM   #35
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I don't know the exact performance, just that the normal situation is that the fluid pump s when the engine is on. Unless the vehicle can be flat towed, in that case it's fine to coast in N.

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