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Old 11-25-2014, 10:21 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Thegreenmachine View Post
Science and evidence ...



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Lol. Your funny!!... Click image for larger version

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ID:	170292 just one graph from the FBI that proves your wrong!..


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Old 11-27-2014, 09:16 AM   #177
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Where do yall store CCWs in this thing?

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Lol. Your funny!!... Attachment 170292 just one graph from the FBI that proves your wrong!..


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The thread that won't die ...

How so? I've posted plenty of scientific studies that show correlations between firearm availability and homicide/suicide that have been adjusted to control for other factors. This is called statistical analysis.

You posted a graph of declining crime rates in the US with no explanation provided by you other than "you're wrong" ... so I'm not sure what exactly it or you are trying to prove ...

If you are trying to correlate with guns being available in the US you should not that one of the most fundamental concepts of statistical analysis is that correlation does not equal causation. For example, this tongue in cheek graph - Click image for larger version

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We all know that Facebook has nothing to do with the Greek Debt Crisis.

I don't think you understand the difference between scientific studies using statistics and proper methodologies and just throwing up random graphs and claiming they prove something (and you haven't even explained what you think it proves ...).

It's sad that many people don't have the educational background to even understand these arguments, but insist on taking sides. That's why we need to improve education in is country as well, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

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Old 11-27-2014, 09:25 AM   #178
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Where do yall store CCWs in this thing?

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You've missed my point. It's not the place of employees of a public school system funded by tax dollars to impose their personal political beliefs on their students. They are to stick to the curriculum to be taught.

Parents are a whole different story. It's normal and expected for parents to instill their values on their children.


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If there is one thing I teach my students it is to collect and understand EVIDENCE on both sides of an issue and then make informed decisions. When I have them write essays, I purposely make them argue both sides of the issue.

I also primarily teach Roman history ... because they were bada$$.


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Old 11-27-2014, 09:32 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Thegreenmachine View Post
The thread that won't die ...

How so? I've posted plenty of scientific studies that show correlations between firearm availability and homicide/suicide that have been adjusted to control for other factors. This is called statistical analysis.

You posted a graph of declining crime rates in the US with no explanation provided by you other than "you're wrong" ... so I'm not sure what exactly it or you are trying to prove ...

If you are trying to correlate with guns being available in the US you should not that one of the most fundamental concepts of statistical analysis is that correlation does not equal causation. For example, this tongue in cheek graph - Attachment 170405

We all know that Facebook has nothing to do with the Greek Debt Crisis.

I don't think you understand the difference between scientific studies using statistics and proper methodologies and just throwing up random graphs and claiming they prove something (and you haven't even explained what you think it proves ...).

It's sad that many people don't have the educational background to even understand these arguments, but insist on taking sides. That's why we need to improve education in is country as well, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

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After days of going back and forth, the thread finally died a couple days ago. You just revived it...


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Old 11-27-2014, 10:27 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by GrabberMeBlue View Post
After days of going back and forth, the thread finally died a couple days ago. You just revived it...


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Old 11-27-2014, 10:30 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Thegreenmachine View Post
The thread that won't die ...

How so? I've posted plenty of scientific studies that show correlations between firearm availability and homicide/suicide that have been adjusted to control for other factors. This is called statistical analysis.

You posted a graph of declining crime rates in the US with no explanation provided by you other than "you're wrong" ... so I'm not sure what exactly it or you are trying to prove ...

If you are trying to correlate with guns being available in the US you should not that one of the most fundamental concepts of statistical analysis is that correlation does not equal causation. For example, this tongue in cheek graph - Attachment 170405

We all know that Facebook has nothing to do with the Greek Debt Crisis.

I don't think you understand the difference between scientific studies using statistics and proper methodologies and just throwing up random graphs and claiming they prove something (and you haven't even explained what you think it proves ...).

It's sad that many people don't have the educational background to even understand these arguments, but insist on taking sides. That's why we need to improve education in is country as well, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

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Correlation?!?... Ok!... Gun sales go up, violent crime goes down!.. Wow!!! Sort of backs up Ronnies Theory of "An armed society is a polite society!.."

I think you just don't want to look at all the facts!..


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Old 11-27-2014, 10:34 AM   #182
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I don't have a horse in the race and am quite moderate/undecided on the issue. My dad has multiple guns and is a hunter. I don't have guns. That said, just observing this debate, I will say that strictly argumentation and debate wise, thegreenmachine OWNED this debate.

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Old 11-27-2014, 11:39 AM   #183
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Old 11-27-2014, 04:04 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Eturner View Post
Correlation?!?... Ok!... Gun sales go up, violent crime goes down!.. Wow!!! Sort of backs up Ronnies Theory of "An armed society is a polite society!.."

I think you just don't want to look at all the facts!..


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More guns means more gun related deaths and not a safer place to live. I really don't understand the mentality that a society will be safer with more guns. There must be a million articles like the one I posted below.

This thread is like a bad car accident, you don't want to look but just can't help it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/u-s-has...ry?id=20303432


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Old 11-27-2014, 05:00 PM   #185
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Correlation?!?... Ok!... Gun sales go up, violent crime goes down!.. Wow!!! Sort of backs up Ronnies Theory of "An armed society is a polite society!.."

I think you just don't want to look at all the facts!..
Wow. First off, he said that correlation does NOT mean causation (which is a FACT). Even that went way over your head. Second, it's clear you didn't read a single one of the scholarly articles of real scientific studies that he posted, because you would have seen that those controlled for confounding factors. Not that you have any clue what that means, haha, I'm guessing you didn't do too hot in science or math class.

I am neither for or against guns. Just an observer, pointing out that logic-wise, thegreenmachine is destroying you guys. Ronnie is the only one on the pro-gun side who appears to be educated on the issue and making intelligent responses to thegreenmachine's arguments. But even he succumbed to ad hominem arguments at times, especially at the end.

Eturner, for the sake of your pro-gun buddies here, I suggest you just back off and let others debate. You're making your whole group look bad.

SMH. Stay in school, kids.... Some of the things posted on this thread make me really concerned for the American education system.
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Old 11-27-2014, 05:06 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Sakib View Post
Wow. First off, he said that correlation does NOT mean causation (which is a FACT). Even that went way over your head. Second, it's clear you didn't read a single one of the scholarly articles of real scientific studies that he posted, because you would have seen that those controlled for confounding factors. Not that you have any clue what that means, haha, I'm guessing you didn't do too hot in science or math class.

I am neither for or against guns. Just an observer, pointing out that logic-wise, thegreenmachine is destroying you guys. Ronnie is the only one on the pro-gun side who appears to be educated on the issue and making intelligent responses to thegreenmachine's arguments. But even he succumbed to ad hominem arguments at times, especially at the end.

Eturner, for the sake of your pro-gun buddies here, I suggest you just back off and let others debate. You're making your whole group look bad.

SMH. Stay in school, kids.... Some of the things posted on this thread make me really concerned for the American education system.
Well put.

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Old 11-27-2014, 06:37 PM   #187
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More guns means more gun related deaths and not a safer place to live. I really don't understand the mentality that a society will be safer with more guns. There must be a million articles like the one I posted below.

This thread is like a bad car accident, you don't want to look but just can't help it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/u-s-has...ry?id=20303432


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The studies that you are showing have grouped any and all Gun related deaths Together!.. From Suicide to Homicide, and any thing in between!.. I never once debated that!.. So sure if you add it all together than Ya!.. What I'm talking about is the Correlation between Law Abiding Gun Owners and Violent Crime!..


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Old 11-27-2014, 06:41 PM   #188
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This thread went a bit off topic.
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Old 11-27-2014, 06:54 PM   #189
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Wow. First off, he said that correlation does NOT mean causation (which is a FACT). Even that went way over your head. Second, it's clear you didn't read a single one of the scholarly articles of real scientific studies that he posted, because you would have seen that those controlled for confounding factors. Not that you have any clue what that means, haha, I'm guessing you didn't do too hot in science or math class.

I am neither for or against guns. Just an observer, pointing out that logic-wise, thegreenmachine is destroying you guys. Ronnie is the only one on the pro-gun side who appears to be educated on the issue and making intelligent responses to thegreenmachine's arguments. But even he succumbed to ad hominem arguments at times, especially at the end.

Eturner, for the sake of your pro-gun buddies here, I suggest you just back off and let others debate. You're making your whole group look bad.

SMH. Stay in school, kids.... Some of the things posted on this thread make me really concerned for the American education system.

First off I don't know where the Hell you get off trying to attack me, about what I do and don't understand!..

Secondly, I Never said Correlation Meant Causation!.. But on the same note, you can not ignore the simple fact that Gun Ownership in the U.S. has gone Up!.. While Violent crime has Gone Down!.. I never once said that is the sole reason why Violent Crime has gone down!.. Yes I know there are other factors too, but if Your going to look at something Scientifically, Then You Need To Look At All Evidence!.. Not pick and choose!.. Sorry but with 17+ years of Law Enforcement and Private Security, I'm used to looking at All Evidence!.. Something that maybe you know nothing about!..




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Old 11-27-2014, 06:57 PM   #190
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This thread went a bit off topic.

Just a touch from what I can observe.


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Old 11-27-2014, 06:59 PM   #191
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The studies that you are showing have grouped any and all Gun related deaths Together!.. From Suicide to Homicide, and any thing in between!.. I never once debated that!.. So sure if you add it all together than Ya!.. What I'm talking about is the Correlation between Law Abiding Gun Owners and Violent Crime!..


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Oh brother I'm done, this thread is f' up lol, cheers!

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Old 11-27-2014, 07:08 PM   #192
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First off I don't know where the Hell you get off trying to attack me, about what I do and don't understand!..

Secondly, I Never said Correlation Meant Causation!.. But on the same note, you can not ignore the simple fact that Gun Ownership in the U.S. has gone Up!.. While Violent crime has Gone Down!.. I never once said that is the sole reason why Violent Crime has gone down!.. Yes I know there are other factors too, but if Your going to look at something Scientifically, Then You Need To Look At All Evidence!.. Not pick and choose!.. Sorry but with 17+ years of Law Enforcement and Private Security, I'm used to looking at All Evidence!.. Something that maybe you know nothing about!..




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You posted one graph with no context and no interpretation, and jumped to this "proves your wrong". Versus thegreenmachine who has posted several complete peer reviewed publications. Who is picking and choosing evidence?

Regarding my experience of looking at evidence. Well, I have a PhD in engineering and published several peer reviewed research articles in the last four years. But what do I know about interpreting data.

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Old 11-27-2014, 07:17 PM   #193
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Oh yeah. You said there is a correlation between "law abiding gun owners" and violent crime? LOL. Well if they were committing violent crimes they wouldn't be "law abiding" right? Hahahahaha. I'd expect that correlation to be one-to-one. Jeez, seriously man, just give up. I'm not even against guns and it is so easy to destroy your arguments.

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Old 11-27-2014, 07:26 PM   #194
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You posted one graph with no context and no interpretation, and jumped to this "proves your wrong". Versus thegreenmachine who has posted several complete peer reviewed publications. Who is picking and choosing evidence?

Regarding my experience of looking at evidence. Well, I have a PhD in engineering and published several peer reviewed research articles in the last four years. But what do I know about interpreting data.

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Mr. Greens argument is basically "less guns equals a safer society!.." Clearly that is not entirely true!.. And as far as Interpreting Data, clearly your not too good at it!.. Seeing as you don't want to look at All the Evidence!.. Mr Green shows a article about how the UK has fewer guns and yet Violent Crimes have gone down!.. Even though the article itself states that there were a couple of Violent Crimes that Where Not included in their study!.. Yet here in the U.S. there are More Guns, and yet Violent Crime across the board has gone down!.. What part of this is hard for you to interpret?..


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Old 11-27-2014, 07:31 PM   #195
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Oh yeah. You said there is a correlation between "law abiding gun owners" and violent crime? LOL. Well if they were committing violent crimes they wouldn't be "law abiding" right? Hahahahaha. I'd expect that correlation to be one-to-one. Jeez, seriously man, just give up. I'm not even against guns and it is so easy to destroy your arguments.

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When is the last time you've seen a Law Abiding citizen Kill some one in cold blood??... Ya!... For some one who claims to be Highly Educated, I would expect you to know the difference between Criminals and Law Abiding people!..


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Old 11-27-2014, 07:38 PM   #196
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What it bouls down to is this>

The constitution gives all Americans a right to bear arms.

Then the criminals abused that right and if they committed a felony a law was passed that they could no longer legally own any firearm.

Honest law abiding citizens still can own a gun.You can even own a Machine gun with a special credential. You can carry your pistol concealed with a permit in most states. Very few law abiding citizens have ever fired their guns at all other then at shooting ranges or hunting game.

The Criminals that are not allowed to own or carry a gun seem to still have one or more and still carry one and use it to rob & sometimes shoot people. It does happen often everywhere. They usually always rob places they know people are not allowed to have a gun for protection.

Some crazy people use a gun to kill anybody they feel like. These crazy people usually go to a school or Movie theater or any place they know there are no protections against them. Personally I think they could do some good for everybody and just shoot out red light cameras. Go down as hero's.

If all of the guns in the world were rounded up and not one single firearm of any kind existed does anyone really think the world would be safer from criminals? If you do, you are in for a big surprise. Machetes, Knives, Pipe bombs, Small tubing to make a firearm using off the shelf products that can shoot a projectile as powerful as a 9mm or 45. Yes, Even a rock.

When it comes down to facts, The honest American Citizen almost always just uses their gun for self defense or sporting purposes. They don't go around shooting people. It just don't happen.

You will never ever stop the criminals or crazy people from harming anyone.
That is unless you have something to protect yourself with. A gun for protection is still the very best choice.

There are plenty of laws already on the books to prevent bad people from owning a firearm. They just don't enforce them very well.

Like Wayne LaPierre once said" It takes a good guy with a gun--To stop a Bad guy with a gun"

This is a SAD fact.

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Old 11-27-2014, 07:45 PM   #197
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When is the last time you've seen a Law Abiding citizen Kill some one in cold blood??... Ya!... For some one who claims to be Highly Educated, I would expect you to know the difference between Criminals and Law Abiding people!..


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Jeez Louise. That was exactly my point.... you are saying there is a CORRELATION between law abiding citizens and violent crimes (and I assume you mean negative correlation), and what you are saying makes absolutely no sense. A "law abiding citizen" is by definition not committing a violent crime. So what the heck does it mean that there is a correlation???? My gosh. This is not worth my time. Anyone reading this, including your pro-gun buddies, can tell you are being owned. Also, when I said "But what do I know about interpreting evidence" I was being rhetorical. But since you are questioning me actually being educated, here's a link to my publications. Elahi SF - PubMed - NCBI

Good day. I am done arguing with you. If someone else wants to make intelligent discussion about this topic, no matter whether they are for or against, I will be glad to participate, as I have learned a lot from this thread. But I've had it with conversing with you.
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Old 11-28-2014, 05:07 AM   #198
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Jeez Louise. That was exactly my point.... you are saying there is a CORRELATION between law abiding citizens and violent crimes (and I assume you mean negative correlation), and what you are saying makes absolutely no sense. A "law abiding citizen" is by definition not committing a violent crime. So what the heck does it mean that there is a correlation???? My gosh. This is not worth my time. Anyone reading this, including your pro-gun buddies, can tell you are being owned. Also, when I said "But what do I know about interpreting evidence" I was being rhetorical. But since you are questioning me actually being educated, here's a link to my publications. Elahi SF - PubMed - NCBI

Good day. I am done arguing with you. If someone else wants to make intelligent discussion about this topic, no matter whether they are for or against, I will be glad to participate, as I have learned a lot from this thread. But I've had it with conversing with you.

I never once said Law Abiding Citizens commit Violent Crimes!!...

Criminals Want Victims!..

Criminals Do Not Want a Confrontation!..

In other Words, if a Criminal Knows a Law Abiding Citizen is armed and able to Defend themselves, they are less likely to Attack That Law Abiding Person!!..

Wow!..

With all your Education and Your Not Able to make that Connection?!?... And you wonder why I doubt your educated!..


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Old 11-28-2014, 09:20 AM   #199
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I don't have a horse in the race and am quite moderate/undecided on the issue. My dad has multiple guns and is a hunter. I don't have guns. That said, just observing this debate, I will say that strictly argumentation and debate wise, thegreenmachine OWNED this debate.

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That's the problem. He thinks this is a debate. It's not. His personal wishes may not infringe on my right to protect myself. I provided examples of when a firearm has protected me from being potentially beaten or mugged or attacked by a dog. The examples from a real person seem to have been largely ignored for statistics on a national scale. I honestly could not care less about the rise/fall of violence on the big scale because I know what a gun provides; it is not the first thing I reach for in every situation, it's the last thing I'm left with when there are no other options. It may be that you never need one in your entire life, and that's fine for you, but in the 10 years I have been carrying I have needed one three times. So statistically I am going to need it 15-16 more times in my life if I live to 75...

And everyone knows: there's lies, damn lies, and statistics!


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Old 11-28-2014, 09:36 AM   #200
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That's the problem. He thinks this is a debate. It's not. His personal wishes may not infringe on my right to protect myself. I provided examples of when a firearm has protected me from being potentially beaten or mugged or attacked by a dog. The examples from a real person seem to have been largely ignored for statistics on a national scale. I honestly could not care less about the rise/fall of violence on the big scale because I know what a gun provides; it is not the first thing I reach for in every situation, it's the last thing I'm left with when there are no other options. It may be that you never need one in your entire life, and that's fine for you, but in the 10 years I have been carrying I have needed one three times. So statistically I am going to need it 15-16 more times in my life if I live to 75...

And everyone knows: there's lies, damn lies, and statistics!


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And there's police officers that have been on the force for 20+ years and never shot at any one!.. It's better to have and not need, than to need and not have!.. I've been carrying for just over 5 years and never needed it!.. But there's some people that think their Ideology trumps another's right to self defense!..


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Old 11-28-2014, 08:33 PM   #201
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How does a thread get ruined by someone trying to push gun control down our throats?? Typical liberals.....
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:19 PM   #202
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:45 PM   #203
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Matt, I'm leaning toward that way with another small pistol I carry until I get the XDs. I had to choose what to get myself for Christmas between exhaust/headers, new pistol, and ski trip to Breckenridge for New Years. Ski trip won out, never been...

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Old 11-28-2014, 10:50 PM   #204
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How does a thread get ruined by someone trying to push gun control down our throats?? Typical liberals.....

Yep. Kind of disappointed that they couldn't make their own thread, but it's completely typical of anti-gun people to have to have their voices heard in any topic with the word gun in it.

They like having their opinions heard regardless of relevance to the topic. Opinions are like anuses...everyone has one and they all stink.

Really wish this thread stayed on topic because I liked the few ideas I saw, like UltArc had. Right in the handbrake area. Never thought of that, but it fits perfectly.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:51 PM   #205
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Breckenridge is really great. I was there once back in the 90's for a Harley Davidson HOG club event. Of course it was in the summer but it sure is a beautiful place. I can just imagine how great it would be in the winter with the snow on the ground.

You can always get the other things later down the road.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:56 PM   #206
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Breckenridge is really great. I was there once back in the 90's for a Harley Davidson HOG club event. Of course it was in the summer but it sure is a beautiful place. I can just imagine how great it would be in the winter with the snow on the ground.

You can always get the other things later down the road.
Have Fun!!!!!
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Haha, yeah, I kinda decided the same way. But dang skiing is expensive! I could make my dad's boat payment for a year for what I'm going to spend in 4 days, lol.
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Old 11-29-2014, 02:23 AM   #207
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I've got the shield, it's a little thinner than the xds, and getting my shield to fit between the seat and console can be a tight squeeze, I've got an uncle mikes holster it's in so that it can slide out with ease without scratching the center console. If you've got a buddy with the xds, ask to see if it will fit there, it might not.


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Old 11-29-2014, 08:32 PM   #208
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The xds is the same, if not narrower than than the shield (by .01"), so it will fit in the same manner. I pop it in cup holder and can completely conceal it.

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Old 11-29-2014, 09:28 PM   #209
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bang bang
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Old 11-29-2014, 10:10 PM   #210
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No just no ^^^


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